Is it just me or have SF vanished?

FrancieBrady

joeguevara wrote: »

Francie, you asked for an opinion on whether the law was played fast and loose. I gave my opinion and backed it up with the reasons why, outlining that the Commission had departed from settled case law. Am I entitled to have an opinion the same as you are entitled?

Absolutely.

You haven’t outlined why you have yours other than European Commission said so. Why do you think it was fast and loose with the law? As a Sinn Fein supporter are you advocating that Ireland should not control its own tax law but it should be controlled by the EU?

I voted for SF, that doesn't for a minute mean I support them or that I'm a member.

This is an area where I disagree with them. I think we should be supporting the EU in it's attempt to bring all corporations into line.
The wealth these corporations are generating for a few that should be coming back into the communities where they ply their trade and make their product is at obscene levels now.
I believe, unlike you that they do have 'moral' obligations over and above the need to make profit.
I am not for a minute...communist or even fully socialist, I am more interested in fair play and balance in everything and corporations don't get to avoid that.

blanch152

blanch152 wrote: »

Effectively Apple are in the exact same place that the good republican Slab was. If you remember Revenue made a judgement against him that he fought through the Courts for several decades, losing at every stage before ending up in jail via the Special Criminal Court.

If I remember correctly, Francie, you proclaimed his innocence all along right up until the minute he was found guilty and even then, you complained about the non-jury court. Guess what? The ECJ where Apple will end up is a non-jury court. Do you not have the same sympathy for Apple that you had for the Slab?

Jesus

Ive heard it all now....equating apple to the chief of staff of the provos

Rows Grower

blanch152 wrote: »

Effectively Apple are in the exact same place that the good republican Slab was. If you remember Revenue made a judgement against him that he fought through the Courts for several decades, losing at every stage before ending up in jail via the Special Criminal Court.

If I remember correctly, Francie, you proclaimed his innocence all along right up until the minute he was found guilty and even then, you complained about the non-jury court. Guess what? The ECJ where Apple will end up is a non-jury court. Do you not have the same sympathy for Apple that you had for the Slab?

What has Slab Murphy got to do with Sinn Fein?

Shur for all we know he might be a member of Fine Gael.

blackwhite

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Didn't for a second claim to be an expert on it.

What 'claims' have I made only quote other sources? RTE, The EU etc?

Well we can start with this one

FrancieBrady wrote: »

All we need to do to release that money is drop our objection as a state to taking it.

Then it is legal to take it.

A definitive statement of fact - that of course if demonstrably not true
And the second someone points out the above is untrue, because Apple are also appealing, you switch to arguing something else.


Next up we try

FrancieBrady wrote: »

recording every Apple product sold in Europe, Middle East, Africa and India as a 'sale made in Ireland' for tax reasons

and of course the second that this is shown to be another falsehood, and that Apple actually have subsidiaries in all of the countries they sell in, but charge royalties from Ireland, you pivot onto something else.



And then finally - claiming that the Apple case was the reason that the Double Irish was abolished.

The Double Irish shut-down was announced in Nov 2014, during the 2015 Budget speech. It came because of EU pressures regarding the tax treatment of royalty payments to countries without a tax treaty in place - with the threat that the EU would introduce new rules that would prevent it anyway - not that it was illegal at the time.
The Apple judgement was announced on 29 August 2016 :rolleyes:

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Effectively Apple are in the exact same place that the good republican Slab was. If you remember Revenue made a judgement against him that he fought through the Courts for several decades, losing at every stage before ending up in jail via the Special Criminal Court.

If I remember correctly, Francie, you proclaimed his innocence all along right up until the minute he was found guilty and even then, you complained about the non-jury court. Guess what? The ECJ where Apple will end up is a non-jury court. Do you not have the same sympathy for Apple that you had for the Slab?

I didn't...stop telling lies please. Again. And I never expressed an opinion on Slab sympathetic or otherwise.
I agree with what Adams had to say about his conviction.

GerryAdams wrote:

“everyone has a duty to pay the taxes for which they are liable”.

Shefwedfan

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The EU said it wasn't legal...did you miss that? That is why Apple had to pony up the cash. That is why we abolished the facility.

Pending a win by Apple and Ireland that's the state of play.

Throwing the toys pout of the pram again I see

joeguevara

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Absolutely.



I voted for SF, that doesn't for a minute mean I support them or that I'm a member.

This is an area where I disagree with them. I think we should be supporting the EU in it's attempt to bring all corporations into line.
The wealth these corporations are generating for a few that should be coming back into the communities where they ply their trade and make their product is at obscene levels now.
I believe, unlike you that they do have 'moral' obligations over and above the need to make profit.
I am not for a minute...communist or even fully socialist, I am more interested in fair play and balance in everything and corporations don't get to avoid that.

Fair enough. I have to admit, that I disagree with a good lot of what you say in this thread but you do have a reasoned argument (most of the time), you don’t call people bots, you don’t mindlessly quote something and disappear. So fair play and kudos with regards to what your company is doing in this crazy times.

I have read extensively on the Apple Case and read the case law, I think the commission did misinterpret our Tax Law. But tax is such a grey area and no one really knows what the outcome will be.

I am not political at all and not a fan of FG FF or SF.

FrancieBrady

blackwhite wrote: »

Well we can start with this one



A definitive statement of fact - that of course if demonstrably not true
And the second someone points out the above is untrue, because Apple are also appealing, you switch to arguing something else.

I don't think this is true...Apple have no hold over the money. They have paid it. It is in escrow because Ireland has appealed and the Minister for Finance is the holder of the account. Apple's appeal does not bar the release of the escrow money. Once we drop the appeal there is nothing legally stopping the money coming out of Escrow.
Apple can still continue pursuing their appeal.

Next up we try


and of course the second that this is shown to be another falsehood, and that Apple actually have subsidiaries in all of the countries they sell in, but charge royalties from Ireland, you pivot onto something else.

I linked to an RTE report backing what I said. All I see are people 'telling' me that is wrong. They haven't backed it up with a source. So once again..back it up or it's just your word against somebody else's.

And then finally - claiming that the Apple case was the reason that the Double Irish was abolished.

The Double Irish shut-down was announced in Nov 2014, during the 2015 Budget speech. It came because of EU pressures regarding the tax treatment of royalty payments to countries without a tax treaty in place - with the threat that the EU would introduce new rules that would prevent it anyway - not that it was illegal at the time.
The Apple judgement was announced on 29 August 2016 :rolleyes:

Fair enough on that. Mea cupla.

Sultan_of_Ping

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So the EU is wrong to go after Starbucks, Chrysler, Amazon, Apple and others?

I wasn't asking about 'your sector' specifically as i haven't the foggiest what your sector is.

Not at all......if the Commission feel that any company or Member State is potentially operating not in compliance with the law they should go after them.....I'd even say they're dutybound to do so - we all want a level playing field.

Their job is to investigate, put the matter before the relevant court and let it be adjudicated - that's the law and that's the system.

People suggesting we just bypass all that and go straight to grabbing the money are ones advocating law breaking.

Sultan_of_Ping

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Hmm...I just think anyone...recording every Apple product sold in Europe, Middle East, Africa and India as a 'sale made in Ireland' for tax reasons is 'playing fast and loose' tbh.

Might be just me though (but I doubt it)

Well unless you're on the ECJ bench or an A-G there, then your thoughts and opinions are pretty much irrelevant.

Shefwedfan

Let the big American companies away with it, means f**k all difference to Ireland and it keeps the nation employed

Added advantage is that it pi**es off the rest of Europe

I said it before and will say it again, the people that complain about the American corporation are the people who can’t get a job in them :-)

Do I give a cr*p if Apple or whoever push every penny they make in Europe via a Ireland office so they have to pay less tax? No I don’t...what I care about is the thousand of jobs they provide and all the rest of these companies...

I hope the government and Apple win, then f**k the begrudges, at home and abroad!!!

Runaways

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Jesus

Ive heard it all now....equating apple to the chief of staff of the provos

It’s all blanch can do. Limited redundant circular nonsense

Shefwedfan

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Let the big American companies away with it, means f**k all difference to Ireland and it keeps the nation employed

Added advantage is that it pi**es off the rest of Europe

I said it before and will say it again, the people that complain about the American corporation are the people who can’t get a job in them :-)

Do I give a cr*p if Apple or whoever push every penny they make in Europe via a Ireland office so they have to pay less tax? No I don’t...what I care about is the thousand of jobs they provide and all the rest of these companies...

I hope the government and Apple win, then f**k the begrudges, at home and abroad!!!

Is it not incredibily short-sighted to build our econmy around what is essentially a tax-evasion scheme??



Like what happens if america introduces laws to encourage repatriation,or another eurozone country undercutz us?

And its increasingly likely even before covid crisis the eu was getting ready to clamp.down on this,quite why we should facititate a company to pay 0.05% tax on its eu revenue,while effectively damning everyone in the eu to.austrity for only 8K jobs here??

joeguevara

Deleted User wrote: »

Is it not incredibily short-sighted to build our econmy around what is essentially a tax-evasion scheme??



Like what happens if america introduces laws to encourage repatriation,or another eurozone country undercutz us?

And its increasingly likely even before covid crisis the eu was getting ready to clamp.down on this,quite why we should facititate a company to pay 0.05% tax on its eu revenue,while effectively damning everyone in the eu to.austrity for only 8K jobs here??

You do know that FDI companies employ 200k people in Ireland. They promote education, world class laboratories, world class training and probably multiples of ancillary employment.

CSO sets it out here. https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-fdi/foreigndirectinvestmentinireland2017/ae/

joeguevara

Sultan_of_Ping wrote: »

Well unless you're on the ECJ bench or an A-G there, then your thoughts and opinions are pretty much irrelevant.

No ones opinions are irrelevant. We should constructively challenge everything we come across. Saying someone’s opinion is irrelevant is counter productive.

joeguevara

joeguevara wrote: »

You do know that FDI companies employ 200k people in Ireland. They promote education, world class laboratories, world class training and probably multiples of ancillary employment.

CSO sets it out here. https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-fdi/foreigndirectinvestmentinireland2017/ae/

We are specifically talking about apple,but way to.move goalposts


But you do highlight a fundamental flaw of over reliance on assisting tax evasion,.

Will we even get 15 more years out of current situation???,
or will we wait until whole thing comes crashing down and everyone whinge about it,instead of taking proactive measures now

FrancieBrady

joeguevara wrote: »

You do know that FDI companies employ 200k people in Ireland. They promote education, world class laboratories, world class training and probably multiples of ancillary employment.

CSO sets it out here. https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-fdi/foreigndirectinvestmentinireland2017/ae/

And have a mercenary attitude to paying their dues and a suspect attitude to proper community responsibility.

Apple have ferreted away 200 billion in cash alone not to mention other assets. Is that proper in the world we live in? What is the point of that exactly?

Have some responsibility to the places that allow you make that kind of profit is all that is being asked.

tikkahunter

tikkahunter wrote: »

It’s like trump signing off on a order for General Motors to stop making cars and start making ventilators - that’s fine looks like he is calling the shots but in reality how long is it going to be before a company that’s makes cars will be able to successfully make a ventilator then start production on it - the pandemic will be long gone again that happens.

Critism.for.sake of critism there....never ends well for anyone

Seat (also a car manufacter) in spain are making ventilators already

https://www.google.com/amp/s/extra.ie/2020/03/31/business/international/seat-manufacturing-plant-making-ventilators/amp

joeguevara

Deleted User wrote: »

We are specifically talking about apple,but way to.move goalposts


But you do highlight a fundamental flaw of over reliance on assisting tax evasion,.

Will we even get 15 more years out of current situation???,
or will we wait until whole thing comes crashing down and everyone whinge about it,instead of taking proactive measures now

I didn’t move the goalposts. It was stated that the system only provided 8k jobs, I showed otherwise.

What proactive measures would you suggest? Tax them, let them mov, lose everything...or do you have something to suggest?

joeguevara

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And have a mercenary attitude to paying their dues and a suspect attitude to proper community responsibility.

Apple have ferreted away 200 billion in cash alone not to mention other assets. Is that proper in the world we live in? What is the point of that exactly?

Have some responsibility to the places that allow you make that kind of profit is all that is being asked.

Does providing jobs, security, pensions, training, charity, etc not help Ireland. What do you suggest they do?

Shefwedfan

Deleted User wrote: »

Is it not incredibily short-sighted to build our econmy around what is essentially a tax-evasion scheme??

No

Deleted User wrote: »

Like what happens if america introduces laws to encourage repatriation,or another eurozone country undercutz us?

America already doing this....

UK already talking about it

Deleted User wrote: »

And its increasingly likely even before covid crisis the eu was getting ready to clamp.down on this,quite why we should facititate a company to pay 0.05% tax on its eu revenue,while effectively damning everyone in the eu to.austrity for only 8K jobs here??

8k jobs?

I am talking about all american companies, Apple/Dell/Intel/IBM/HP etc etc. How many jobs is that?

Everyone in EU to austrity? what are you talking about? If the EU can undercut us and do the exact same they would. They can't. We have an advantage and some people want to hand this advantage back....talk about shooting yourself in the foot

joeguevara

joeguevara wrote: »

I didn’t move the goalposts. It was stated that the system only provided 8k jobs, I showed otherwise.

I was on.about apple and their 8K jobs,but easy to lose in text i guess

What proactive measures would you suggest? Tax them, let them mov, lose everything...or do you have something to suggest?

Develop our own econmy and industry more here,increase tax rate (even a 50% increase leaves us in bottom 6 iirc in the eu) and ringfence said revenue to develop our native industry - potentially use native industry to begin making drugs recently out of patent and corner that market with competitevly priced drugs,and trade on reputation of excellence,same as our agri goods (reputation built up through proper training etc on pharma end)

no reason we cant be ahead of curve here,as for apple/IT jobs in general,a free trade deal witg indua could easily wipe us out there,the over reliance of a handful of conpanies using use for a tax base is incredibly short-sighted

Shefwedfan

Shefwedfan wrote: »

No


America already doing this....

UK already talking about it



8k jobs?

I am talking about all american companies, Apple/Dell/Intel/IBM/HP etc etc. How many jobs is that?

Everyone in EU to austrity? what are you talking about? If the EU can undercut us and do the exact same they would. They can't. We have an advantage and some people want to hand this advantage back....talk about shooting yourself in the foot

You are deluded beyond reproach if you think it is prudent to base econmy on assisting tax evasion....no different in tunnel vision than a plumber circa 2007 with 6 houses

Its going to end terribly,we should be using this time to get ahead of diaster not basing econmy around it


(God help.you...if ya dont think the whole.eu is looking at austrity after this crisis)

Runaways

You can see the moment he’s realizing he’s put his foot in it In a bigger way than ever before and has no way to back pedal.

Apparently we’re not ‘all in this together’

Fine fvkin gael. Only thing they can be relied on to do is consistently let the mask slip


https://twitter.com/caulmick/status/1245795488466640899?s=21

FrancieBrady

joeguevara wrote: »

Does providing jobs, security, pensions, training, charity, etc not help Ireland. What do you suggest they do?

Yes, of course it does. But how far do we lean over?

Everyone pays their fair share or we all get byes and veto's and opt outs. There is a happy medium here...we aren't looking to fleece these corporations.

Shefwedfan

Deleted User wrote: »

I was on.about apple and their 8K jobs,but easy to lose in text i guess



Develop our own econmy and industry more here,increase tax rate (even a 50% increase leaves us in bottom 6 iirc in the eu) and ringfence said revenue to develop our native industry - potentially use native industry to begin making drugs recently out of patent and corner that market with competitevly priced drugs,and trade on reputation of excellence,same as our agri goods (built up through proper training etc on pharma end)

no reason we cant be ahead of curve here,as for apple/IT jobs in general,a free trade deal witg indua could easily wipe us out there,the over reliance of a handful of conpanies using use for a tax base is incredibly short-sighted

I do wonder


You do realize the pharma companies benefit from our corporate tax, if you hit IT you hit them and they move away?

Shefwedfan

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I do wonder


You do realize the pharma companies benefit from our corporate tax, if you hit IT you hit them and they move away?

As ive said a free trade deal with india could eaaily wipe out our IT over night....tell me again how basing an econmy on this sector is wise?

Noone said pharma companies dont benefit??,nowhere have i remotely implied this??

I remember an Ireland before large scale American FDI. It was a really bleak situation. I don't see any viable alternative for Irish employment, tbh.

If you look at Europe, regional areas are depopulating towards larger cities. If we do risk FDI here, we should be aware that it's not easy to replace those jobs, people move to where there is work, which further weakens regional areas etc. It becomes a vicious circle.

Even from the last recession there's areas of Ireland which haven't recovered, and at this stage actually might never recover. I would say only 10% of the people I know who grew up west of the Shannon have any intention of returning to their home towns.

No easy fix to it either.

FrancieBrady

Deleted User wrote: »

I remember an Ireland before large scale American FDI. It was a really bleak situation. I don't see any viable alternative for Irish employment, tbh.

If you look at Europe, regional areas are depopulating towards larger cities. If we do risk FDI here, we should be aware that it's not easy to replace those jobs, people move to where there is work, which further weakens regional areas etc. It becomes a vicious circle.

Even from the last recession there's areas of Ireland which haven't recovered, and at this stage actually might never recover. I would say only 10% of the people I know who grew up west of the Shannon have any intention of returning to their home towns.

No easy fix to it either.

I remember the world before corporations took control of it Harvey.

Yes it was bleak in ways and not so in other ways.

The world is changing (was even before this crisis) and more and more is being asked of what they have done to the world.

We need to ask questions too and seek a fairer way. Won't happen overnight or dramatically.

Runaways

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I remember an Ireland before large scale American FDI. It was a really bleak situation. I don't see any viable alternative for Irish employment, tbh.

If you look at Europe, regional areas are depopulating towards larger cities. If we do risk FDI here, we should be aware that it's not easy to replace those jobs, people move to where there is work, which further weakens regional areas etc. It becomes a vicious circle.

Even from the last recession there's areas of Ireland which haven't recovered, and at this stage actually might never recover. I would say only 10% of the people I know who grew up west of the Shannon have any intention of returning to their home towns.

No easy fix to it either.

I remember fruit of the loom pulling out of donegal and the damage it caused

Baazs point stands.

We should start restructuring and stop depending so heavily on FDI. These companies could well be all leaving after all this.

Even if they don’t we should have a fall back plan in action anyways

We have a nimble enough economy but if one domino falls in terms of an apple or Pfizer leaving they all will