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Is it just me or have SF vanished?
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blackwhite wrote: »You haven’t a clue TBH.
The escrow argument is utter BS - same applies in Irish law as does under EU regulations. Once an appeal is launched then the award/damages or in this case a fine is either suspended or paid and held in escrow until the appeal is finalised. But of course, admitting that might undermine Mary Lou’s nonsense about using the Apple money for the current crisis so everyone here knows you could never bring yourself to admit that :rolleyes:
WE made a deal with Apple over this. Us and Apple...nobody else is a party to it. Look it up.On the Apple legal structures - there’s no “two sides” to the story. There’s the legal facts of the matter, and the usual Francie rubbish on not being able to understand something, and then claiming that whatever you’ve imagined is the same as the actual facts.
ASI buys the product from the Apple manufacturing entities. It then sells the product to Apple entities in the destination counties who sell to the end or else it sells on to third party distributors. This is all documented in the EU case, and in the US Senate report.
You being incapable of reading the full reports, and instead cherry-picking snapshots that you think mean something different doesn’t mean that’s there’s suddenly a set of Trumpian alternate facts that you can claim are equally valid
What I claimed happened is WHAT the EU said happened. Simple as. I have no interest in US 'legal' opinion on it. They lost the case.
Now if you spend a little less time on invective and actually look it up, that is the current position. If Apple win then that position changes...but until then...that's it.
I have no idea what SF's or Mary Lou McDonald's take is on all of this, nor do I care much either.0 -
FrancieBrady wrote: »WE made a deal with Apple over this. Us and Apple...nobody else is a party to it. Look it up.
What I claimed happened is WHAT the EU said happened. Simple as. I have no interest in US 'legal' opinion on it. They lost the case.
Now if you spend a little less time on invective and actually look it up, that is the current position. If Apple win then that position changes...but until then...that's it.
I have no idea what SF's or Mary Lou McDonald's take is on all of this, nor do I care much either.
You really don’t have a clue about this, do you?
In this case the EU is the equivalent of the DPP, they decide there is a case to answer and they prosecute. The courts to date are the equivalent of remand courts and preliminary hearings, they decide on bail and details of the proceedings, the main court case is yet to happen.
Yet, you want to take everything off Apple, but if one of your beloved republicans was in the same situation, you would be screaming blue murder.0 -
You really don’t have a clue about this, do you?
In this case the EU is the equivalent of the DPP, they decide there is a case to answer and they prosecute. The courts to date are the equivalent of remand courts and preliminary hearings, they decide on bail and details of the proceedings, the main court case is yet to happen.
Yet, you want to take everything off Apple, but if one of your beloved republicans was in the same situation, you would be screaming blue murder.
Did you miss this in my post?If Apple win then that position changes...but until then...that's it.
Sometimes I am suspicious you post just to have a dig at the Shinners and not really on what is being said.
Would I be right about that?0 -
FrancieBrady wrote: »WE made a deal with Apple over this. Us and Apple...nobody else is a party to it. Look it up.
What I claimed happened is WHAT the EU said happened. Simple as. I have no interest in US 'legal' opinion on it. They lost the case.
Now if you spend a little less time on invective and actually look it up, that is the current position. If Apple win then that position changes...but until then...that's it.
I have no idea what SF's or Mary Lou McDonald's take is on all of this, nor do I care much either.
As usual - ignore the substance and spout BS.
Read the EU findings and come back - if it was anyone else I’d say you could apologise once you had - but we all now enough of your history not to expect such basic decency as that
ASI sold to in-country entities, who then sold on to the final customer. It’s stated BOTH the EU and US reports. You being incapable of comprehending that doesn’t change the facts.
Defend the cult at all costs Francie - even when you haven’t got a clue about the topic :rolleyes:0 -
I see all the talk about Apple.
Isn't it ironic the party that has opposed every EU referendum, opposed every new power given to Brussels and until recently was an Inspiration to Farage and the Brexit poster boys regarding their views on Europe, now coming out in favour of the EU over ruling Irish Tax Laws. ...... I am staunchly pro EU but I see the Apple Fiasco as nothing more as an attempt to get Ireland to change the corporate tax structure.0 -
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FrancieBrady wrote: »WE made a deal with Apple over this. Us and Apple...nobody else is a party to it. Look it up.
Revenue accepted that Apples legal structure met their thresholds - that’s not “striking a deal”
There’s currently 3 parties disputing the case before the European Court of Justice - Ireland, Apple and the European Commission.
If Ireland drop our appeal then there still remains a dispute between Apple and the European Commission. Until that appeal is resolved then the escrow doesn’t get released. That’s the legal situation - the “whatever propaganda is in Frances head” situation doesn’t have any legal standing.
Althugh I have to admit - it’s been very amusing to see you of all posters getting indigent spouting about “morals” on this one - given the knots you’ve tied yourself in previously trying to defend some of the most henious acts imaginable :pac:0 -
blackwhite wrote: »As usual - ignore the substance and spout BS.
Read the EU findings and come back - if it was anyone else I’d say you could apologise once you had - but we all now enough of your history not to expect such basic decency as that
ASI sold to in-country entities, who then sold on to the final customer. It’s stated BOTH the EU and US reports. You being incapable of comprehending that doesn’t change the facts.
Defend the cult at all costs Francie - even when you haven’t got a clue about the topic :rolleyes:
With all the invective I am not sure what your issue is.
I originally quoted an RTE news source and then when you objected to that I went straight to an EU source and what RTE News said is almost an exact copy of the statement by Vesthager.Apple Sales International holds the right to use Apple's intellectual property to sell and manufacture Apple products outside North and South America. In exchange of this right, it makes payments to Apple in the US to contribute to the development of this intellectual property – often more than 2 billion US dollars per year.
In practice, Apple Sales International buys Apple products from their manufacturers. It sells these products throughout Europe, as well as in the Middle East, Africa and India. And then records all sales in Ireland.
No matter if you buy your iPhone at the Apple Store in Berlin, Rome or elsewhere in these regions, contractually you buy it from Apple Sales International in Cork in Ireland. This is how Apple decided to set it up. It means that all profits coming from those sales are recorded in Ireland.
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/STATEMENT_16_2926
Is there another EU take on it? If there is, less of the anti Shinner invective(I have no idea what their take is on it) and post what the hell it is you mean?0 -
14 Straight hours of arguing Francie , ****ing hell.0
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blackwhite wrote: »Revenue accepted that Apples legal structure met their thresholds - that’s not “striking a deal”
There’s currently 3 parties disputing the case before the European Court of Justice - Ireland, Apple and the European Commission.
If Ireland drop our appeal then there still remains a dispute between Apple and the European Commission. Until that appeal is resolved then the escrow doesn’t get released. That’s the legal situation - the “whatever propaganda is in Frances head” situation doesn’t have any legal standing.
You are the one imploring honest debating...any chance you can do what I have done....provide some sources?
My understanding is that Apple and the Irish government agreed a deal on the Escrow account between them.
I know we definitely control it and have appointed the custodian..an American bank and the investment managers of the fund, Amundi, BlackRock Investment Management and Goldman Sachs Asset Management who make investment decisions on our behalf (and those who have a claim on it obviously)
I can't link to a source on this as it was something I heard discussed on radio, but here is a journalist speculating on it too.
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/apple-s-15bn-back-tax-could-fund-ireland-s-cash-crunch-1.4209152
If you have sources to say Apple control what happens that money..post them please.0 -
tikkahunter wrote: »14 Straight hours of arguing Francie , ****ing hell.
My wife will tell (and my back and hands) that 10 of them were spent on the garden as well) it doesn't take long to write a post of a few sentences. I was on Whatsapp and facebook today too, finishing the day with a glass of wine and watching John Lord splitting plants...amazing eh?0 -
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FrancieBrady wrote: »I think you are wrong here.
The funds have been paid by Apple. They have no more say on what happens them only what we agreed with them should happen
We appealed the ruling so the funds were put in Escrow under the control of our Minister of Finance. We agreed with Apple to appoint the Bank of America as a custodian of the money..we didn't have to do that.
If we drop the appeal the money continues to it's destination and whatever is decided by the countries with a claim on it, legally. The only thing stopping that is our agreement with Apple, which I don't know is legally binding or a gentleman's agreement.
Apple can continue to appeal and if they win, demand repayment. But they have zero say on what happens the money until then if we want it to be that way.
Ok...I looked at it again.
Here is the EU saying it themselves.
I will take the EU's word on what was happening, not the US's, if that is ok.
Do you accept now (in the interests of honest debate) that there are two sides to this story?
Again, you demonstrate you don't know how this works.
First, BNY Mellon are escrow agents not BoA.
Second, "the funds were put in Escrow under the control of our Minister of Finance"? No, this was explained to you earlier the Minister for Finance does not have control of the funds, they are under the supervision of BNYM, as escrow agent and custodian.
The investment and management of the escrow fund is jointly overseen by the Minister and Apple through an investment committee.
Third, there is no "gentleman's agreement." There is a legal deed in place covering all this.
Fourth, our status as appellant is no less and no greater than Apple's so even if drop our appeal, Apple can continue and the funds stay where they are until the matter is determined.
Fifth, by virtue of the deed covering the escrow, Apple have quite a lot of say as to what happens to the money. They are not only represented on the committee overseeing the investment of it, they are the other party to the escrow deed.0 -
This was (conveniently) ignored yesterday. I suggest we all watch the clip. This is how he actually thinks. If you’re earning less than 5k a month you don’t exist or are a welfare cheat.
This is the man. This is Fine Gael. FF had a gift up till recently of being all things to all men. FG aren’t even pretending they only exist for a certain payscale
This has rocketed to the top of list of things that are going to haunt him.
**he doesn’t even realize he’s admitting people aren’t being paid enough never mind the minimum wage bracket.
https://twitter.com/ubuntulad/status/1245807485270872065?s=210 -
This was (conveniently) ignored yesterday. I suggest we all watch the clip. This is how he actually thinks. If you’re earning less than 5k a month you don’t exist or are a welfare cheat.
This is the man. This is Fine Gael. FF had a gift up till recently of being all things to all men. FG aren’t even pretending they only exist for a certain payscale
This has rocketed to the top of list of things that are going to haunt him.
https://twitter.com/ubuntulad/status/1245807485270872065?s=21
No that's not what he says.
He says someone on 220 a week working 20 hours would be better off on the 350 a week.
It would not surprise me to be honest. People are opportunistic.
Also with the kids off I'd imagine sorting minding etc for less than you could get sitting at home would irk people.0 -
This was (conveniently) ignored yesterday. I suggest we all watch the clip. This is how he actually thinks. If you’re earning less than 5k a month you don’t exist or are a welfare cheat.
This is the man. This is Fine Gael. FF had a gift up till recently of being all things to all men. FG aren’t even pretending they only exist for a certain payscale
This has rocketed to the top of list of things that are going to haunt him.
**he doesn’t even realize he’s admitting people aren’t being paid enough never mind the minimum wage bracket.
I have lived in Ireland long enough to know we have a certain percentage of useless f**kers......of course if they think they can get more or similar while sitting on ass at home they will do it
Of course, if you or your twitter mate can prove this is incorrect, I will change my opinion0 -
Shefwedfan wrote: »I have lived in Ireland long enough to know we have a certain percentage of useless f**kers......of course if they think they can get more or similar while sitting on ass at home they will do it
Of course, if you or your twitter mate can prove this is incorrect, I will change my opinion
Ah the fabled waster, under every rock and around every corner in Ireland apparently. I suppose you're always a paragon of productivity. A regular Stahkanovite, the government should cast a medal for you for your daily efforts. You've already awarded yourself one in your head.
A miserable and self-regarding mindset.0 -
And if you were wondering why there was no Leo photo op with the PPE from China
Cos that’s all hes good for let’s be real here
https://twitter.com/caulmick/status/1245778803898671109?s=210 -
And if you were wondering why there was no Leo photo op with the PPE from China
Cos that’s all hes good for let’s be real here
https://twitter.com/caulmick/status/1245778803898671109?s=21
God, who have thunk it?
Companies step up production of items they are not wholly familiar with and it leads to quality issues :rolleyes:0 -
FrancieBrady wrote: »I think you are wrong here.
The funds have been paid by Apple. They have no more say on what happens them only what we agreed with them should happen
We appealed the ruling so the funds were put in Escrow under the control of our Minister of Finance. We agreed with Apple to appoint the Bank of America as a custodian of the money..we didn't have to do that.
If we drop the appeal the money continues to it's destination and whatever is decided by the countries with a claim on it, legally. The only thing stopping that is our agreement with Apple, which I don't know is legally binding or a gentleman's agreement.
Apple can continue to appeal and if they win, demand repayment. But they have zero say on what happens the money until then if we want it to be that way.
Ok...I looked at it again.
Here is the EU saying it themselves.
I will take the EU's word on what was happening, not the US's, if that is ok.
Do you accept now (in the interests of honest debate) that there are two sides to this story?
Tldr
In other words kill and bbq the golden goose?0 -
Shefwedfan wrote: »I have lived in Ireland long enough to know we have a certain percentage of useless f**kers......of course if they think they can get more or similar while sitting on ass at home they will do it
Of course, if you or your twitter mate can prove this is incorrect, I will change my opinion
He’s dog whistling here for his (dwindling) base. People like yourself who think everyone else is beneath them and a scrounger.
It shouldn’t need to be said that it isn’t the denis o briens or captains of industry saving us right now.
It’s the nurses the cleaners the catering staff the kids on tils in the shops.
All on minimum wage most of them only getting 20 hours a week.
He’s targeting them. As scroungers.
If govt didn’t factor in workers on part time hours into their calculations on this covid payment that’s on them. But they actually did.
This is helicopter money and Fg can’t be seen to say that as it wasn’t their idea. It was Sinn Feins.
So in order to distance himself from that before any of his cohort realise, he labels all those people as scroungers.
You couldn’t make it up but here we are. He just did it.
And if you watch the clip he realizes he’s gone too far.
But hey. ‘We’re all in this together’
Like fvck we are0 -
ExactlyThunbergsAreGo wrote: »No that's not what he says.
He says someone on 220 a week working 20 hours would be better off on the 350 a week.
It would not surprise me to be honest. People are opportunistic.
Also with the kids off I'd imagine sorting minding etc for less than you could get sitting at home would irk people.
He is pointing out an anomoly
We do not live in a socialist nirvana where we can pay this 350 a week tax free indefinitely, it's an exceptional measure
Its not an excuse for people on lower, pre crisis to take advantage of
Hes not doing any thing about it because there are way more important things to look after
Of course there are people more interested in promoting their leo hate
Same few all the time, it must be that they think we don't know
I hate celery BTW.
There are more important things at the moment than hate0 -
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He’s dog whistling here for his (dwindling) base. People like yourself who think everyone else is beneath them and a scrounger.
It shouldn’t need to be said that it isn’t the denis o briens or captains of industry saving us right now.
It’s the nurses the cleaners the catering staff the kids on tils in the shops.
All on minimum wage most of them only getting 20 hours a week.
He’s targeting them. As scroungers.
If govt didn’t factor in workers on part time hours into their calculations on this covid payment that’s on them. But they actually did.
This is helicopter money and Fg can’t be seen to say that as it wasn’t their idea. It was Sinn Feins.
So in order to distance himself from that before any of his cohort realise, he labels all those people as scroungers.
You couldn’t make it up but here we are. He just did it.
And if you watch the clip he realizes he’s gone too far.
But hey. ‘We’re all in this together’
Like fvck we are
Anyone i know in the low-pay,low hours areas i know are flat to balls at the min
Care assistants and those working in likes of dunnes,tescos and aldi....im intrigued to know what areas FG are targeting with said remarks,
what vital jobs not shut down are people asking to be laid off from??0 -
And if you were wondering why there was no Leo photo op with the PPE from China
Cos that’s all hes good for let’s be real here
https://twitter.com/caulmick/status/1245778803898671109?s=21
SF is looking for every opportunity - the field for such is quiet narrow at the moment due to the virus - to make itself relevant/ keep itself out there/ we havnt gone away you know . One of the current platforms it’s using to achieve this objective , IMO, is Leo V. I noticed it starting off when the SF health spokesperson asked LV not to use the landing of the Aer Lingus flight from China as a photo op. Etc, etc, etc. now it is being said that when the ‘boxes were opened’ and he saw that the contents were not up to his liking that he withdrew from the photo op. Would there not have been reporters / cameramen / camera women present and would have reported as such
A big play is now being made by certain quarters about he being photographed in an empty conference centre in Citywest. I wonder should he have waited until the place was substantially fitted out for a better photo op!,!!!!!!!
The camera ‘caught ‘ him ‘smiling’. Another big no no. He needs to be called out on this also. !!!!!!! Is the man not allowed to have a kind of a smiling disposition now and again. Is it not the case that all politicians - especially those in high positions are, , in principal, never too far from a cameraman / reporter. So they are never in control of this ‘service’. Also cameramen take loads of photos and their agenda - be it having a combination of biases/ selling papers or whatever - will pick the photo that will best achieve their objective.
Are you -plural- telling me that politicians / leaders in all other parties , when they get into power, and especially SF that they will have a policy that will not allow themselves to be followed around to events AND will never use any events /occasions to promote themselves /party/ programmers / projects as photo ops.
If that’s not the case then I can only assume that those that continue the photo op issue - especially at this point in time are out and out trolls, IMO0 -
This was (conveniently) ignored yesterday. I suggest we all watch the clip. This is how he actually thinks. If you’re earning less than 5k a month you don’t exist or are a welfare cheat.
This is the man. This is Fine Gael. FF had a gift up till recently of being all things to all men. FG aren’t even pretending they only exist for a certain payscale
This has rocketed to the top of list of things that are going to haunt him.
**he doesn’t even realize he’s admitting people aren’t being paid enough never mind the minimum wage bracket.
https://twitter.com/ubuntulad/status/1245807485270872065?s=21
A guy my wife works with put in a request to be laid off so he could get this payment. He's not the sharpest tool in the shed but I doubt he's the only one asking.
How much do you think a SF government would be willing to pay someone who only works 20 hours a week?0 -
He’s dog whistling here for his (dwindling) base. People like yourself who think everyone else is beneath them and a scrounger.
It shouldn’t need to be said that it isn’t the denis o briens or captains of industry saving us right now.
It’s the nurses the cleaners the catering staff the kids on tils in the shops.
All on minimum wage most of them only getting 20 hours a week.
He’s targeting them. As scroungers.
If govt didn’t factor in workers on part time hours into their calculations on this covid payment that’s on them. But they actually did.
This is helicopter money and Fg can’t be seen to say that as it wasn’t their idea. It was Sinn Feins.
So in order to distance himself from that before any of his cohort realise, he labels all those people as scroungers.
You couldn’t make it up but here we are. He just did it.
And if you watch the clip he realizes he’s gone too far.
But hey. ‘We’re all in this together’
Like fvck we are
I don't support FG which is your first issue
Yes Ireland has plenty of scroungers. Hence why we have so many Eastern European/africans etc running our shops/cleaners/health care etc. Thank God for immigration
You will find the local scroungers will be doing exactly what Leo said, then sitting in a lock in somewhere signing about 'Da Ra, saying what a great job Mary Lou is doing :P:P:P wouldn't work on batteries0 -
Of course there are people more interested in promoting their leo hate
Same few all the time, it must be that they think we don't know
I hate celery BTW.
There are more important things at the moment than hate
And before Leo, it was Enda hate. It’s really FG hate. Bring Micheal Martin into the mix and they lose all reason!
The government are doing a good job in very difficult circumstances.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »Anyone i know in the low-pay,low hours areas i know are flat to balls at the min
Care assistants and those working in likes of dunnes,tescos and aldi....im intrigued to know what areas FG are targeting with said remarks,
what vital jobs not shut down are people asking to be laid off from??
Tbh, I don't put much stock in Leo's anecdotes, they sound a bit like Enda's infamous 'man with two pints' concoction.
Unless it's a widespread practice that can be proven, it was better left unsaid.0 -
[Deleted User] wrote: »
what vital jobs not shut down are people asking to be laid off from??
The 350 is available to self employed people who also have a part time job
That would be one instance that I'm aware of
Where the person is only entitled to the 350 if they lost the job
Eg if you were part time employed but set up a small business doing something else aswell or in the gig economy
Youd have to close the business and would be stuck on the low pay part time job but no €350 just UA ?
To be honest,I'd have no problem with that in the current crisis
If both were earning less than 350 together,its a no brainer anomaly0 -
FrancieBrady wrote: »With all the invective I am not sure what your issue is.
I originally quoted an RTE news source and then when you objected to that I went straight to an EU source and what RTE News said is almost an exact copy of the statement by Vesthager.
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/STATEMENT_16_2926
Is there another EU take on it? If there is, less of the anti Shinner invective(I have no idea what their take is on it) and post what the hell it is you mean?
Maybe try the actual report, instead of a press release
https://ec.europa.eu/competition/state_aid/cases/253200/253200_1851004_674_2.pdf
Paragraphs 54 and 5554. As regards ASI, its Irish branch is mainly responsible for the execution of procurement, sales and distribution activities associated with the sale of Apple products to related parties and third-party customers across the EMEIA and APAC regions. Key functions within ASI’s Irish branch include: procurement of Apple finished goods from third-party and related-party manufacturers; distribution activities associated with the sale of products to related parties in the EMEIA and APAC regions; sales support and distribution activities associated with the sale of products to third party customers across EMEIA; activities of the selling and distribution teams, online sales; logistics operations; and operating AppleCare, Apple’s after-sales customer support business, which includes responsibility for warranty, managing the repair programs and repair network including telephone support.
Not direct sales to consumers - but sales to related parties (i.e. the in-country Apply entities) and to third party customers (i.e. other Apple-approved distributors).55. ASI’s Irish branch also fulfils the purchase orders placed by the APAC local country distribution entities. Many activities associated with the distribution into this region are performed by related parties (for example, logistics support) under service contracts with ASI’s Irish branch. In addition, ASI’s Irish branch is responsible for monitoring day-to-day management of distribution risks, in particular, inventory, warranty and credit limit risks. Since 1 January 2012, ASI’s Irish branch has also been responsible for product localisation functions, which were previously performed by AOE’s Irish branch.
And again, they fulfil the orders from local entites.
A big part of the confusion is probably coming from the fact that the full cash from sales flowed up into ASI, before the minimal profit "share" went back into the local sales entities.
If you really want to bore yourself to sleep, have a read of the OECD rules on transfer pricing (which Apple were notionally trying to follow, they just deviated on structuring the Irish entities, which is where the EU case found them in breach). Having an in-country entity that owns the end-customer sale, but make next to nil profit, whilst you've a sister company in a more tax-friendly jurisdiction which ultimately takes the majority of the profit is the core principle of how these schemes work.0 -
The 350 is available to self employed people who also have a part time job
That would be one instance that I'm aware of
Where the person is only entitled to the 350 if they lost the job
Eg if you were part time employed but set up a small business doing something else aswell or in the gig economy
Youd have to close the business and would be stuck on the low pay part time job but no €350 just UA ?
To be honest,I'd have no problem with that in the current crisis
If both were earning less than 350 together,its a no brainer anomaly
The form deos ask if you have part time/casual income and i guess self employed been wided out too tbf
Its incredilbe stupid from varadkar,they are doing reasonable enough job all things considered and he takes it upon himself to stir up needless controversy.....
quiet why anyone feels need to defend such gobsh1teness is perplexing0 -
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[Deleted User] wrote: »
quiet why anyone feels need to defend such gobsh1teness is perplexing
He's entitled to the belief
There is a consistency for that opinion in this country and every country
I'd agree He was stupid to bring it up now though
Very stupid
There will be no 350 payments when this is over though
We'd all be hoping theres an end to this0
![[Deleted User]](/applications/dashboard/design/images/defaulticon.png)
This discussion has been closed.
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