Covid-19; Impact on the aviation industry

HTCOne

NH2013 wrote: »

Well I know the A330 can’t land on Dublin’s current runway above about 205 tons if it’s dry or about 195tons if the runway is wet, and it has a maximum takeoff weight of 242tons, so would often be above those weights taking off, so I’m sure many other similar sized aircraft such as the 777, 787, A350 must be in a similar boat.

Only going from what I’ve heard, I’ve been told by an A330 pilot that most takeoffs out of Dublin would require a diversion to Shannon for an immediate landing, as coming back into Dublin would not be possible. The A330s maximum landing weight is 187tons normally.

The A330 can in general land above MLW in DUB, as can anything capable of departing DUB, they require an engineer inspection after. The issue arrives with certain failures effecting braking ability. Then the runway can become an issue. So in essence it depends on the nature of the emergency.

Cookiemunster

HTCOne wrote: »

Where do you send the tests then if the Government are using all the capacity in the country? Imagine testing someone who has just arrived from Germany, then telling them to wait while we send their test back to Germany to be processed.

I'm pretty sure that we only used German labs during the height of the lockdown. We now have capacity to process the tests in Ireland. It is still too slow though.

duskyjoe

NH2013 wrote: »

Well I know the A330 can’t land on Dublin’s current runway above about 205 tons if it’s dry or about 195tons if the runway is wet
.

Those figures are wildly incorrect.

Normal One

Set up labs at large airports.

Test every passenger as they go through security.

Aim to have results ready by the time passenger lands in the other side and is being processed.

If positive, quarantine all passengers from flight for further priority testing.

This could be done for all large EU airports. Smaller international airports would have to figure something out for themselves like using an external lab facility. Flights arriving from outside the EU, well tough titty, you're not leaving the airport until your tests are done.

HTCOne

Cookiemunster wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that we only used German labs during the height of the lockdown. We now have capacity to process the tests in Ireland. It is still too slow though.

3.5 - 4 days wait currently according to news reports the last few days. It was about 24 hours until a few weeks ago but the recent surge in cases and resulting demand for testing has caused a backlog again. News reports I heard have it down to a number of reasons; the number of contact tracers fell due the big drop in demand when we consistently had single figures of new cases daily, and they were volunteers who haven't been replaced, so it is taking longer to find those who need a test, the demand on testing labs themselves etc.

LiamaDelta

HTCOne wrote: »

3.5 - 4 days wait currently according to news reports the last few days. It was about 24 hours until a few weeks ago but the recent surge in cases and resulting demand for testing has caused a backlog again. News reports I heard have it down to a number of reasons; the number of contact tracers fell due the big drop in demand when we consistently had single figures of new cases daily, and they were volunteers who haven't been replaced, so it is taking longer to find those who need a test, the demand on testing labs themselves etc.

Seems to be back down to less than 24 hours now (from testing to results). There was an issue between Friday and Monday that caused delays but seems to be resolved now. Likely the delays were due to a lack of staff as it seems the HSE are dependent on people offering to do do the test and trace work outside of their regular work. Presumably people are less inclined to give up their weekends if they can help it.

rivegauche

Compare and contrast:
https://www.frankfurt-airport.com/en/transfer-at-frankfurt-airport/covid-19/coronavirus-testing-at-the-airport.html
Free testing.

https://www.dublinairport.com/covid-19/covid-19-faqs
Will I be tested for COVID-19 upon arrival in Dublin Airport?
We are currently not carrying out tests for COVID-19 on passengers at Dublin Airport. Upon arrival, you must complete a Public Health Passenger Locator form and to self-isolate for 14 days.

Ryanair and other Airlines are fighting to keep their businesses running.
Fraport is fighting to keep business running.
DAA seems quite apathetic in comparison.

gral6

State should intervene and stop Irish aviation being slowly but surely killed !

rivegauche

Either travel from abroad is causing the issue and support should be given by Government to test those entering at ports and airports or else it isn't the issue and community transmission is the issue in which case the travel restrictions which are effectively bans should be lifted.
There is no coherency in strategy.

I say DAA are apathetic. This is a company with huge debts and no income to service debts and the best it can come up with to fight the lockdown is perspex and messages about social distancing.

Blut2

rivegauche wrote: »

Either travel from abroad is causing the issue and support should be given by Government to test those entering at ports and airports or else it isn't the issue and community transmission is the issue in which case the travel restrictions which are effectively bans should be lifted.
There is no coherency in strategy.

I say DAA are apathetic. This is a company with huge debts and no income to service debts and the best it can come up with to fight the lockdown is perspex and messages about social distancing.

I agree with the first half of this. But I don't think its down to the DAA - its the Irish government who're responsible for the travel bans, and for not putting testing in the airport(s).

rivegauche

When are the Government approved appointees in DAA going to break ranks and make it politically uncomfortable for the Government by criticizing Government policy?
Answer: Never, because they won't bite the hand that feeds them irrespective of how much damage is done to the Irish economy, their organisation or the employment of their staff.

LiamaDelta

rivegauche wrote: »

Either travel from abroad is causing the issue and support should be given by Government to test those entering at ports and airports or else it isn't the issue and community transmission is the issue in which case the travel restrictions which are effectively bans should be lifted.
There is no coherency in strategy.

I say DAA are apathetic. This is a company with huge debts and no income to service debts and the best it can come up with to fight the lockdown is perspex and messages about social distancing.

It's not an either/or issue and it changes very quickly. Currently travel from abroad is not a major contributing factor, but likely the reason for this is that travel is restricted. i.e. the restrictions work, because they reduce the movement of people.
We do not have the capacity for mass-testing of incoming visitors in this country. We can barely test the numbers required within the country currently to contain outbreaks.
There's little point in comparing us to other countries that have a long history of investing in public health over decades, we haven't done that and are now paying the price.

Blut2

rivegauche wrote: »

When are the Government approved appointees in DAA going to break ranks and make it politically uncomfortable for the Government by criticizing Government policy?
Answer: Never, because they won't bite the hand that feeds them irrespective of how much damage is done to the Irish economy, their organisation or the employment of their staff.

Almost nobody (outside of internet comments) has been criticizing government covid policy to date though, thats not just the DAA. Not the media, not businesses by and large, not even the opposition parties in the Dail. Theres been a distinct lack of anyone high profile daring to even ask questions/ask for medical evidence that supports restrictions.

Ryanair aside that is, to be fair to them they have been trying. But even they've kept the kid gloves on. And unfortunately with MOL's history of media outspokenness they do tend to get ignored. The boy that called wolf and all that.

The GAA asking for the medical proof for the restrictions this week placed on them is the first real bit of high profile kickback. Hopefully more follows.

LiamaDelta wrote: »

It's not an either/or issue and it changes very quickly. Currently travel from abroad is not a major contributing factor, but likely the reason for this is that travel is restricted. i.e. the restrictions work, because they reduce the movement of people.
We do not have the capacity for mass-testing of incoming visitors in this country. We can barely test the numbers required within the country currently to contain outbreaks.
There's little point in comparing us to other countries that have a long history of investing in public health over decades, we haven't done that and are now paying the price.

But for most of July we had around 10,000 spare testing capacity every single day. And approx 15,000 arrivals in DUB a day. So thats completely untrue - we had the capacity to mass test a majority of our incoming visitors.

HTCOne

LiamaDelta wrote: »

Seems to be back down to less than 24 hours now (from testing to results). There was an issue between Friday and Monday that caused delays but seems to be resolved now. Likely the delays were due to a lack of staff as it seems the HSE are dependent on people offering to do do the test and trace work outside of their regular work. Presumably people are less inclined to give up their weekends if they can help it.

Agree with you on this. Plenty of people put their shoulder to the wheel at the beginning of this emergency for honourable reasons, and fair play to them. We can't rely on volunteers doing the contact tracing out of the goodness of their hearts forever. People have lives, jobs etc.

rivegauche

LiamaDelta wrote: »

It's not an either/or issue and it changes very quickly. Currently travel from abroad is not a major contributing factor, but likely the reason for this is that travel is restricted. i.e. the restrictions work, because they reduce the movement of people.
We do not have the capacity for mass-testing of incoming visitors in this country. We can barely test the numbers required within the country currently to contain outbreaks.
There's little point in comparing us to other countries that have a long history of investing in public health over decades, we haven't done that and are now paying the price.

Ireland is not some third world state. In terms of GDP Ireland is spending similar amounts to the best of the best in western Europe on the health service and Ireland is one of the leading exporting countries of medical equipment in the world. The likes of Abbott who are heavily active in Ireland manufacture a whole suite of testing equipment for Covid.
https://www.abbott.com/coronavirus.html
Enough apologism, more action.

LiamaDelta

Blut2 wrote: »

But for most of July we had around 10,000 spare testing capacity every single day. And approx 15,000 arrivals in DUB a day. So thats completely untrue - we had the capacity to mass test a majority of our incoming visitors.

My comment was regarding our capacity in general, not just one month in the middle of a global pandemic. Having 10k 'spare' capacity one month is not much use to a tourism industry. How do you decide who gets to use the spare capacity? It's not really spare capacity either, most of the resources have to be taken from somewhere else.

EchoIndia

LiamaDelta wrote: »

My comment was regarding our capacity in general, not just one month in the middle of a global pandemic. Having 10k 'spare' capacity one month is not much use to a tourism industry. How do you decide who gets to use the spare capacity? It's not really spare capacity either, most of the resources have to be taken from somewhere else.

The primary purpose of testing is to identify those in the population who are carrying the virus and to test their contacts (and as necessary their contacts' contacts) also. Subsequent isolation for up to 14 days of anyone who tests positive is essential to suppression of the virus so as to (a) prevent widespread transmission in the community and (b) enable society to function as normally as possible. Widespread community transmission carries a significant risk of older and medically vulnerable people catching COVID, with foreseeable consequences. Devotion of public health service testing capacity to enabling a lot more travel in and out of the country has to come a clear second to the above primary considerations.

MrMusician18

EchoIndia wrote: »

The primary purpose of testing is to identify those in the population who are carrying the virus and to test their contacts (and as necessary their contacts' contacts) also. Subsequent isolation for up to 14 days of anyone who tests positive is essential to suppression of the virus so as to (a) prevent widespread transmission in the community and (b) enable society to function as normally as possible. Widespread community transmission carries a significant risk of older and medically vulnerable people catching COVID, with foreseeable consequences. Devotion of public health service testing capacity to enabling a lot more travel in and out of the country has to come a clear second to the above primary considerations.

Who would pay the €2m per day such a testing regime would cost? Airlines or passengers?

Blut2

EchoIndia wrote: »

The primary purpose of testing is to identify those in the population who are carrying the virus and to test their contacts (and as necessary their contacts' contacts) also. Subsequent isolation for up to 14 days of anyone who tests positive is essential to suppression of the virus so as to (a) prevent widespread transmission in the community and (b) enable society to function as normally as possible. Widespread community transmission carries a significant risk of older and medically vulnerable people catching COVID, with foreseeable consequences. Devotion of public health service testing capacity to enabling a lot more travel in and out of the country has to come a clear second to the above primary considerations.

This would be a fair point if we were at/approaching testing capacity. We weren't, and still aren't. As such, using some of the unused testing capacity to try to prevent importation of more cases into the country via the airports is an entirely reasonable use of resources. If need be the testing capacity can always be re-routed away from the airport at a future date, if its required elsewhere.

LiamaDelta wrote: »

My comment was regarding our capacity in general, not just one month in the middle of a global pandemic. Having 10k 'spare' capacity one month is not much use to a tourism industry. How do you decide who gets to use the spare capacity? It's not really spare capacity either, most of the resources have to be taken from somewhere else.

Again, Ireland hasn't been anywhere near testing capacity all summer, and still isn't today. You decide where to use the spare capacity by...using it somewhere. Are you seriously arguing that its better to decide not to use it because its too difficult to decide what to use it on?

Theres just no reason not to be using that spare capacity for arrivals at DUB, or via the ports, or any other airport. We have direct flights arriving in every day from Texas and other covid hot spots, do you not think it might be a worthwhile investment of resources to randomly test arrivals from such places? Because thats exactly what actually well run European countries, that are faring a lot better in their corona response, are doing these days.

billy few mates

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Who would pay the €2m per day such a testing regime would cost? Airlines or passengers?

The airlines should pay for it or pass it on to their passengers if they prefer but there's no way the people of Ireland should be asked to pay €200 per test so Ryanair can sell a few more seats for €19.99 or whatever.
There's a global pandemic on, we should be taking advice from medical health professionals not airline tycoons.

gral6

billy few mates wrote: »

The airlines should pay for it or pass it on to their passengers if they prefer but there's no way the people of Ireland should be asked to pay €200 per test so Ryanair can sell a few more seats for €19.99 or whatever.
There's a global pandemic on, we should be taking advice from medical health professionals not airline tycoons.

Global pandemic my ass...much more people are dying from ordinary flu...I wonder how many people will die next year because idiots from HSE cancelled all cancer pre screening. Hospitals have never been that quite before. Total shambles and mess

IngazZagni

gral6 wrote: »

Global pandemic my ass...much more people are dying from ordinary flu...I wonder how many people will die next year because idiots from HSE cancelled all cancer pre screening. Hospitals have never been that quite before. Total shambles and mess

Ridiculous comment. I will reserve my actual opinion of it.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing at times but with the images coming out of Italy I wonder what people at that time were criticising the initial lockdown measures? I only remember the doom and gloom predictions of how our healthcare system would be overwhelmed. Thankfully that didn’t happen.

In recent weeks though I do feel we have come off the tracks and there is no sense that anybody really knows what’s going on or what way we should proceed.

billy few mates

gral6 wrote: »

Global pandemic my ass...

Ok, we'll go with that version so...

Tenger

HTCOne wrote: »

Where do you send the tests then if the Government are using all the capacity in the country? Imagine testing someone who has just arrived from Germany, then telling them to wait while we send their test back to Germany to be processed.

Report in the media yesterday says testing average is under 3 days.
The tests sent to Germany was back in May/June as we were running low on the required regents

Personally I think testing of all arrivals with a 2 day quarantine until the results were back would rule out fear of "hoards of unquarantined travelers coming in on packed airplanes" (that quote is from the "influencer" who held her birthday lunch in Berlin D2 the other day.......)

gral6 wrote: »

Global pandemic my ass...much more people are dying from ordinary flu...I wonder how many people will die next year because idiots from HSE cancelled all cancer pre screening. Hospitals have never been that quite before. Total shambles and mess

Someone obviously doesnt understand the difference in CFR of the 2 viruses.
However the point bout death from other causes is correct (perhaps accidentally)
During the Ebola outbreak in west Africa few years back, the focus on combating that scourge resulted in a lrger number of deaths from other causes.
This however is a triage situation.

LiamaDelta

Blut2 wrote: »

This would be a fair point if we were at/approaching testing capacity. We weren't, and still aren't. As such, using some of the unused testing capacity to try to prevent importation of more cases into the country via the airports is an entirely reasonable use of resources. If need be the testing capacity can always be re-routed away from the airport at a future date, if its required elsewhere.



Again, Ireland hasn't been anywhere near testing capacity all summer, and still isn't today. You decide where to use the spare capacity by...using it somewhere. Are you seriously arguing that its better to decide not to use it because its too difficult to decide what to use it on?

Theres just no reason not to be using that spare capacity for arrivals at DUB, or via the ports, or any other airport. We have direct flights arriving in every day from Texas and other covid hot spots, do you not think it might be a worthwhile investment of resources to randomly test arrivals from such places? Because thats exactly what actually well run European countries, that are faring a lot better in their corona response, are doing these days.

But it's not spare capacity, it has to be resourced and paid for from other parts of the health system. Those people are not currently sitting around doing nothing. They are doing other work that won't get done if they have to go sit in an airport and test people coming from Texas. Your preference is to cancel Physiotherapy, psychology and various other appointments for citizens, in preference for testing tourists from Texas.
I agree that increased testing would be great, but we're nowhere near being able to roll it out when we are barely able to cope with the current outbreaks.
Out of interest, which European countries should I look at as a guide? Germany I presume is one.

HTCOne

billy few mates wrote: »

The airlines should pay for it or pass it on to their passengers if they prefer but there's no way the people of Ireland should be asked to pay €200 per test so Ryanair can sell a few more seats for €19.99 or whatever.
There's a global pandemic on, we should be taking advice from medical health professionals not airline tycoons.

That is a reasonable outlook on the face of it, but I would counter that other countries are covering the cost because any healthy inbound tourists would spend far more than that €200 on things like flights, accommodation, hospitality etc, so it could actually be financially profitable, and would protect jobs in the airports, airlines, hotels, restaurants etc, thus further reducing Government expenditure through welfare payments and increasing income through PAYE etc.

Blut2

LiamaDelta wrote: »

But it's not spare capacity, it has to be resourced and paid for from other parts of the health system. Those people are not currently sitting around doing nothing. They are doing other work that won't get done if they have to go sit in an airport and test people coming from Texas. Your preference is to cancel Physiotherapy, psychology and various other appointments for citizens, in preference for testing tourists from Texas.
I agree that increased testing would be great, but we're nowhere near being able to roll it out when we are barely able to cope with the current outbreaks.
Out of interest, which European countries should I look at as a guide? Germany I presume is one.

Thats...not remotely medically accurate. Do you think physiotherapists and psychologists are carrying out covid tests? Administering covid tests isn't a complex medical procedure, specialized staff are hired and trained to do it very quickly. No country is pulling senior doctors from their area of expertise to do a very quick, very basic task. And the testing isn't for the benefit of the tourist from Texas, its to prevent said tourist from spreading the virus to Irish people while they're in Ireland.

In regards to other countries, its becoming "most of Europe" at this stage:

All passengers arriving in France from 16 “high-risk” red-listed countries — including the US, South Africa, Israel, Brazil, Serbia and Turkey — are subject to a PCR test.[...]Several French airports — including Paris-Charles de Gaulle and Paris-Orly, and others in Bordeaux and Lyon — are also currently offering voluntary testing for people arriving in France from countries that are not red-listed.
--
Germany's health minister Jens Spahn declared testing will be compulsory for people arriving from “high-risk” areas — which includes about 130 countries[...]Holidaymakers arriving from other areas that are considered “non-risk” are also eligible for free testing on a voluntary basis, but these tests will take place at a local health centre, rather than the airport.
--
On 15 June, Iceland began offering passengers a choice between taking a Covid-19 test upon arrival, or quarantining for two weeks.
--
Sheremetyevo Airport — one of four major international airports that serve the city of Moscow — launched “express” Covid-19 testing on 20 July.
--
Italy has imposed mandatory coronavirus testing for all travellers arriving from Croatia, Greece, Malta and Spain. Travellers arriving at an airport, port or border crossing can choose from a number of options, including rapid tests on the spot

etc

There is absolutely no reason Ireland can't do similar when our European neighbours are all doing it. Other than government incompetence, that is.

MrMusician18

Blut2 wrote: »

Thats...not remotely medically accurate. Do you think physiotherapists and psychologists are carrying out covid tests? Administering covid tests isn't a complex medical procedure, specialized staff are hired and trained to do it very quickly. No country is pulling senior doctors from their area of expertise to do a very quick, very basic task. And the testing isn't for the benefit of the tourist from Texas, its to prevent said tourist from spreading the virus to Irish people while they're in Ireland.

In regards to other countries, its becoming "most of Europe" at this stage:



There is absolutely no reason Ireland can't do similar when our European neighbours are all doing it. Other than government incompetence, that is.

These express tests are not particularly accurate to my knowledge - I can stand corrected on this.

Jack1985

MrMusician18 wrote: »

These express tests are not particularly accurate to my knowledge - I can stand corrected on this.

So, what we just do absolutely zero here? Not even make remote attempts to test, track and trace?? The fact is this testing will reduce exposure to citizens, the vast majority of countries are doing this.

We can't handle the mild pressure on the system at the moment and after 6 months it’s disgraceful. I refuse to believe for a remote second Ireland knows best when it is demonstrated each bloody week we are led by utter incompetence.

This Government has continued at every juncture excluding of course Meat Plants and Direct Provision to look for scapegoats that being Travel and Pubs (Pubs which would have allowed controlled environments, instead people have massive parties as a consequence). They have done this at each and every corner and this piss poor leadership is seeing them lose the support of the people, is it any bit surprising where we are after months of talking about exactly this incompetence.

bk

gral6 wrote: »

Global pandemic my ass...much more people are dying from ordinary flu...

To be clear, based on the study that came out today on the prevalence in the population, it would indicate a mortality rate of 3%

By comparison the normal seasonal flu's mortality rate is just 0.1%

That makes Covid19 30 times more deadly then the flu.

On testing, there are some interest quick and cheap Saliva tests being approved for use in the US which look really interesting and could be used at airports.

Now their specificity is less then the traditional PCR tests and we would need to make sure that it is within acceptable ranges. Also it really should be paid for by the passengers.

The PCR testing capacity needs to be kept for suspected cases.