Covid-19; Impact on the aviation industry

L1011

opinionated3 wrote: »

Based on your logic so, the best of business's and investment should go to the capital, and to hell with the rest of us. Sums up this country in a nutshell I guess.

Considering your logic is that the actual revenue supplier should be starved of investment even further than it is now; anything at all would be superior.

billy few mates

opinionated3 wrote: »

I can tell you now, if Shannon is closed, FF and FG will never see a candidate returned in Clare or Limerick ever again. That's how high feelings run around this issue

What would that achieve, they very nearly didn't return any candidates this time around?
Which of the alternative political parties has committed to save Shannon?

Cookiemunster

billy few mates wrote: »

What would that achieve, they very nearly didn't return any candidates this time around?
Which of the alternative political parties has committed to save Shannon?

Do you honestly believe that the likes of SF wouldn't be all over this is closure was mooted? Just because the haven't made a statement about it does not mean they wouldn't be out on the streets if it did occur.

And BTW FF and FG have 3 of the 5 seats in Clare, 2 of the 4 in Limerick City and 2 of the 3 in Limerick County. To say that the very nearly didn't return any candidates is clearly BS.

cson

L1011 wrote: »

Not going to keep the lights on on their own.

Isn't Shannon Development keeping the ship afloat for SNN?

cson

Inquitus wrote: »

The Depreciation charge on the airport and terminal building is €3m annually on its own.

Depreciation is non cash so shouldn't be considered, all you need to look at is cash flow to see if the business is making money (per my comment above, I believe the Shannon Development arm of the operation has been keeping things afloat).

As a contrarian opinion, with COVID accelerating WFH practices, then I can see an argument for SNN to be retained in tandem with a decentralization from Dublin. Not arguing the point that Dublin Metro Area generates most of the tax revenue of the country (obviously), but this is a fact of life everywhere in the world. NYC pays for Kentucky, California pays for Mississippi. Subsidized locales inevitably exist.

billy few mates

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Do you honestly believe that the likes of SF wouldn't be all over this is closure was mooted? Just because the haven't made a statement about it does not mean they wouldn't be out on the streets if it did occur.

Of course they would because that's exactly what they do, they'd be all over it like a rash but do you honestly believe SF would actually do anything about it...?
They ran their last election campaign in the Navan area with the slogan "if you want the train vote Sinn Fein", for every one else in the country they promised a free house...

HTCOne

cson wrote: »

Isn't Shannon Development keeping the ship afloat for SNN?

Yes. The group owns various properties that they rent out throughout the country (which they couldn't find tenants for after the last recession) and they also manage various tourist attractions around the country such as King John's, Bunratty and Malahide Castles, possibly Blarney too, can't remember who runs that one.

AnRothar

L1011 wrote: »

Basically the entire country outside of Greater Dublin (+Galway City) is funded using left overs from Dublin's taxation.

The Greater Dublin Area has a massive infrastructure deficit, not helped by funding everything everywhere else.

Dublin does not "get everything"

You almost had me believing until i saw the bit in bold above.

snotboogie

L1011 wrote: »

Basically the entire country outside of Greater Dublin (+Galway City) is funded using left overs from Dublin's taxation.

The Greater Dublin Area has a massive infrastructure deficit, not helped by funding everything everywhere else.

Dublin does not "get everything"

https://www.revenue.ie/en/corporate/documents/statistics/receipts/net-receipts-by-county.pdf

Galway is a blip in tax receipts. The PAYE alone in Cork is larger than the entire tax take in Galway. Kildare is a larger tax contributor than Galway despite having a smaller population.

Cork contributes 5.5 billion per year in tax and hasn't had a major infrastructure project start in the city since 2006.

3d4life

cson wrote: »

Depreciation is non cash so shouldn't be considered, all you need to look at is cash flow to see if the business is making money.....

Just so.

In old times SFADCO were landlord to most ( ? all ? ) of the units in the original Free Zone. Would be some rent roll if still the case.

Also I believe it was the case that in old times there was an obligation for the airstrip to operate written in to at least one of the leases.

bk

L1011 wrote: »

Basically the entire country outside of Greater Dublin (+Galway City) is funded using left overs from Dublin's taxation.

Agree with what you are saying, but FYI only Dublin and Cork are net tax contributors (they raise more tax then is spent in them), not Galway.

I've no issue with Cork/Dublin supporting the rest of the country, but this sort of parish pump politics really doesn't help infrastructure development in this country.

Cork/Dublin really should have much better infrastructure for European cities of their sides. For instance Dublin should really have three metro lines by now similar to Copenhagen and Amsterdam, similar sized cities.

Of course the rest of Ireland should be invested in too, but it needs to be far more focused and realistic then what currently happens. At the moment, it more or less gets spreads evenly across the rest of the country, but that means it gets very diluted and means not much more money is available then to patch up some roads, etc.

Every corner of Ireland seems to want to have an airport or train, even though they really don't have the population densities to support it and the money ends up getting wasted, where it could have had more impact if spent elsewhere.

HTCOne wrote: »

Possibly Blarney too, can't remember who runs that one.

No, Blarney is still owned by Sir Charles St John Colthurst, whose family have owned it dating back to the 16th Century!

I'd guess you are thinking of Knappogue Castle which is owned by Shannon Development.

HTCOne

There’s a kernel of truth in all sides of the “big city vs small city vs rural” debate, and we could all sit here making both reasonable points and unreasonable generalisations, but I feel we might be heading into the weeds and heavily off topic here, ie COVID and aviation!

Cookiemunster

3d4life wrote: »

Just so.

In old times SFADCO were landlord to most ( ? all ? ) of the units in the original Free Zone. Would be some rent roll if still the case.

Also I believe it was the case that in old times there was an obligation for the airstrip to operate written in to at least one of the leases.

Yes Shannon Group still owns the Shannon Free Zone and they own the National Technology Park in Plassey. Plus some or all of technology parks in Ennis, Birr, Tralee and Thurles. The group as a whole made a post tax profit of €21.6m last year. https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/profits-soar-at-shannon-airport-parent-in-spite-of-reduced-air-traffic-1.4244554

rivegauche

Shannon is a regional airport. Shannon should be served by regional aircraft. It hasn't got the high fare paying business passengers to justify regional jets and it is too remote from most locations in Europe to work with slower turboprops. The locals will have to content themselves with less frequently scheduled services and summer charter flights.

Beechwoodspark

That shyster micky o Leary on RTÉ drivetime ranting and raving at the presenter

Sounds v rattled

gral6

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

That shyster micky Leary on RTÉ drivetime ranting and raving at the presenter

Sounds v rattled

Thanks Michael O'Leary for keeping Irish aviation alive. Without him, it would've been dead already. Good give him strengths to fight these ffg idiots in power.

PommieBast

snotboogie wrote: »

Galway is a blip in tax receipts. The PAYE alone in Cork is larger than the entire tax take in Galway. Kildare is a larger tax contributor than Galway despite having a smaller population.

Would not be surprised if Kildare's tax take is partly a result of the Intel Leixlip site.

davebuck

gral6 wrote: »

Thanks Michael O'Leary for keeping Irish aviation alive. Without him, it would've been dead already. Good give him strengths to fight these ffg idiots in power.

100% the only shysters around are the Muppets in Government,

gral6

davebuck wrote: »

100% the only shysters around are the Muppets in Government,

It is ****ing ridiculous not to introduce some tests at the airports for incoming people from the red list countries with 24 hours of turnaround time. If they are negative - let them go, not - tell to self isolate for 2 weeks. Instead, these muppets nearly killed our aviation and tourism sectors. What a mess they have done.

Noxegon

Ryanair has a press release that is remarkably on point:

https://corporate.ryanair.com/news/ryanair-calls-for-immediate-addition-of-germany-and-uk-to-irelands-green-list/

dubdaymo

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Sounds v rattled

He quickly realised that trying to talk common sense to a PC-encrusted RTE interviewer was going to get him nowhere.

duskyjoe

dubdaymo wrote: »

He quickly realised that trying to talk common sense to a PC-encrusted RTE interviewer was going to get him nowhere.

He won’t be back on rte again imo. The interviewer went personal with a ping pong style which was just abrasive. There’s ways to interview formidable individuals and this wasn’t one of them. A caustic interview to listen to.

davebuck

duskyjoe wrote: »

He won’t be back on rte again imo. The interviewer went personal with a ping pong style which was just abrasive. There’s ways to interview formidable individuals and this wasn’t one of them. A caustic interview to listen to.

Just listened to the interview on Drivetime, I'm afraid Mary let herself down on this one big time. NPHET + HSE need to focus more on testing and turnaround times on results than the current need jerk reactions around aviation/green lists etc. and I include the new minister for health as well....

HTCOne

It is rare that I agree with MOL and Ryanair, but they are spot on with this. Testing is still a shambles here. Regardless of which side of the fence you sit on, the lack of testing at ports and airports is a joke. 4 days to get a test result here when you get one in 2 hours in Vienna. International experts categorically state the key to staying on top of this thing is test test test, as it is the only way to catch asymptomatic carriers. We don’t follow that mantra. The criteria to be eligible for a test is being tightened again. Whether that’s due lack of tests, lack of testing capacity or lack of money, it is unacceptable 5 months after lockdown started that we are still such a shambles in this regard.

bk

Unfortunately Covid19 looks to be surging across Europe again. I notice that MOL fails to mention that the UK has a 14 day quarantine too and are adding new restricted countries to the list every day. Countries across the EU are coming under pressure to close their borders too.

It is absolutely insane for them to suggest we drop our Green List and leave unrestricted travel from Europe, just as Europe looks to be on the brink of a second wave!!

Fair enough if they were looking to test 100% of people flying in, I'd support that, but I see no mention of that in their press release and I certainly wouldn't see MOL reaching into his pocket to pay for those tests.

Blut2

Whatever about the merits of adding or removing individual countries from the green list theres absolutely no reason not to have extensive testing at airports now. Particularly testing targeted at flights come from "red" or high risk countries. Many other countries around Europe already have arrival tests in place.

As of about a week ago we had the capacity to do 15,000 tests a day supposedly, but were only doing 5,000 a day. Why not use 5,000 tests a day of that spare capacity to test a big chunk of the daily arrivals at DUB? If theres another surge the capacity can always be re-routed back elsewhere, but for the moment its doing nothing.

It makes me wonder if we really do actually have the capacity thats being claimed, or if the government is fudging the numbers significantly on that. There doesn't seem to be any other logical reason as to why its not being used for international arrivals from high risk areas otherwise.

MrMusician18

HTCOne wrote: »

It is rare that I agree with MOL and Ryanair, but they are spot on with this. Testing is still a shambles here. Regardless of which side of the fence you sit on, the lack of testing at ports and airports is a joke. 4 days to get a test result here when you get one in 2 hours in Vienna. International experts categorically state the key to staying on top of this thing is test test test, as it is the only way to catch asymptomatic carriers. We don’t follow that mantra. The criteria to be eligible for a test is being tightened again. Whether that’s due lack of tests, lack of testing capacity or lack of money, it is unacceptable 5 months after lockdown started that we are still such a shambles in this regard.

If the airlines want airport testing why can't they pay for it?
They cost in the region of €200 each to process afaik.

smurfjed

and still significantly too short for most aircraft, particularly heavy widebody aircraft to land on above their maximum landing weights.

which aircraft can’t land on the Dublin runway in the event of an emergency.

NH2013

smurfjed wrote: »

which aircraft can’t land on the Dublin runway in the event of an emergency.

Well I know the A330 can’t land on Dublin’s current runway above about 205 tons if it’s dry or about 195tons if the runway is wet, and it has a maximum takeoff weight of 242tons, so would often be above those weights taking off, so I’m sure many other similar sized aircraft such as the 777, 787, A350 must be in a similar boat.

Only going from what I’ve heard, I’ve been told by an A330 pilot that most takeoffs out of Dublin would require a diversion to Shannon for an immediate landing, as coming back into Dublin would not be possible. The A330s maximum landing weight is 187tons normally.

HTCOne

MrMusician18 wrote: »

If the airlines want airport testing why can't they pay for it?
They cost in the region of €200 each to process afaik.

Where do you send the tests then if the Government are using all the capacity in the country? Imagine testing someone who has just arrived from Germany, then telling them to wait while we send their test back to Germany to be processed.