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Gardaí: Provo Army Council oversees PIRA & SF

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    #1502
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,564 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    smurgen wrote: »
    The Kinahans have thrived while the SCC has existed.at least try to use examples that supports your argument!

    Jurors have not been required - that is the point.

    The SCC exists to protect people like you and me from having to carry out jury duties against the most dangerous gangland leaders this country has produced who think nothing of taking lives.

    None of you would want to sit on such juries.


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    #1503
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,254 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »



    People are all high and moral until it impacts on them.

    What about witnesses, barrister and judges, are they immune from intimidation?


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    #1504
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,761 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    jm08 wrote: »
    From what I understand the SSC legally is designed for terrorist activity, not for crime activity. What most say (including Drew Harris) is that it needs to be reviewed and reformed to maybe cater for this gangland activity.

    https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/courts_system/special_criminal_court.html

    The Special Criminal Court only deals with criminal cases. It hears cases about paramilitary, subversive and organised crimes, but much of its workload now involves organised crime cases.

    Any case that is not on the list of scheduled offences above can be heard in the Special Criminal Court, if the DPP believes the ordinary courts would be inadequate to secure the administration of justice and the preservation of public peace

    Paramilitaries are involved in organised crime. That was part of what the Commissioner said.


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    #1505
    smurgen
    Registered Users Posts: 6,933 ✭✭✭smurgen


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Jurors have not been required - that is the point.

    The SCC exists to protect people like you and me from having to carry out jury duties against the most dangerous gangland leaders this country has produced who think nothing of taking lives.

    None of you would want to sit on such juries.

    My god backwards countries like Switzerland Norway the Netherlands and Finland all of which use juries must be absolutely over run by drug gangs. Their poor citizens are probably fleeing in droves. If only they got rid of juries like countries like Mexico Columbia and South Africa.


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    #1506
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,564 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    What about witnesses, barrister and judges, are they immune from intimidation?

    You are trying to pull up everything to support a defunct argument.

    You know full well they are different and know and understand the risks.

    Jurors are selected randomly.

    I hold my point that you would never want to sit on such a jury and that you would, correctly, be terrified to do so.

    Easy to talk nonsense until it's you affected.

    Like I say your tune would change right quick if you got that letter from the court service.


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    #1507
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,761 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    smurgen wrote: »
    My god backwards countries like Switzerland Norway the Netherlands and Finland all of which use juries must be absolutely over run by drug gangs. Their poor citizens are probably fleeing in droves. If only they got rid of juries like countries like Mexico Columbia and South Africa.

    Norway?

    https://www.newsinenglish.no/2017/01/20/norway-to-drop-jury-system-on-appeal/


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    #1508
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,564 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    smurgen wrote: »
    My god backwards countries like Switzerland Norway the Netherlands and Finland all of which use juries must be absolutely over run by drug gangs. Their poor citizens are probably fleeing in droves. If only they got rid of juries like countries like Mexico Columbia and South Africa.

    Do you trust the gardai to protect you?

    There was a garda on RTE just tonight saying they don't have enough resources to police the country.

    They can't protect themselves. They can't even stop a bunch of travellers having a road race ffs.

    Get real.


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    #1509
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,254 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    You are trying to pull up everything to support a defunct argument.

    You know full well they are different and know and understand the risks.

    Jurors are selected randomly.

    I hold my point that you would never want to sit on such a jury and that you would, correctly, be terrified to do so.

    Easy to talk nonsense until it's you affected.

    Like I say your tune would change right quick if you got that letter from the court service.

    I didn't 'want' to sit on the two juries I was called for, but I did. When I did on one of the trials, we were all briefed about the possibility of intimidation or contact from acquaintances of the accused. All but one of us proceeded.

    You speak for yourself here please.


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    #1510
    Yurt2
    Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    Norway?

    https://www.newsinenglish.no/2017/01/20/norway-to-drop-jury-system-on-appeal/

    Did you even read that? There's a lay majority on the panel.


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    #1511
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/courts_system/special_criminal_court.html

    The Special Criminal Court only deals with criminal cases. It hears cases about paramilitary, subversive and organised crimes, but much of its workload now involves organised crime cases.

    Any case that is not on the list of scheduled offences above can be heard in the Special Criminal Court, if the DPP believes the ordinary courts would be inadequate to secure the administration of justice and the preservation of public peace

    Paramilitaries are involved in organised crime. That was part of what the Commissioner said.


    I think the highlighted bit is the problem with most of the those who are criticising it. What most say is that it needs to be reviewed. Too much power in the hands of the DPP.



    This article covers the views of the organisations that think it needs to be reviewed. Interesting that Mary Robinson has been a strong critic of it since its inception.



    https://www.thejournal.ie/ge16-election-2016-ireland-fact-check-special-criminal-court-2594422-Feb2016/


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    #1512
    careless sherpa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 373 ✭✭careless sherpa


    Mortelaro wrote: »
    It's just an observation, is there any particular reason,is it because the IRA army council dont officially recognise the 26 counties as a country so it's not in order for Sinn Féin representatives to refer to it as anything other than 'the state'?

    I would think that a lot if people would consider this 26 county state and the 6 in the north of the country to be temporary entities. Both were conceived as being only a temporary solution


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    #1513
    quokula
    Registered Users Posts: 3,580 ✭✭✭quokula


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    I didn't 'want' to sit on the two juries I was called for, but I did. When I did on one of the trials, we were all briefed about the possibility of intimidation or contact from acquaintances of the accused. All but one of us proceeded.

    You speak for yourself here please.

    I know you want to live in a shinner utopia where witness intimidation is just a fact of life we should all accept, but most people aren’t so blasé about such thuggery.


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    #1514
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users Posts: 14,331 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    There are bound to be moles. In the old days the IRA was allowed to kill them. They can't do that any more.

    It's not that many years (14) since Denis Donaldson was executed for betraying Sinn Fein.
    They don't take too kindly to anyone who doesn't toe the line.
    Apparently the hit job was outsourced to the Real IRA.


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    #1515
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users Posts: 14,331 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    smurgen wrote: »
    The Kinahans have thrived while the SCC has existed.at least try to use examples that supports your argument!

    The Dundon witness intimidation case just exemplifies the need for the SCC.


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    #1516
    Yurt2
    Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    jimmycrackcorm wrote: »
    The Dundon witness intimidation case just exemplifies the need for the SCC.

    You're conflating witnesses with a jury. Witnesses are still required for conviction.

    Juries can be anonymised and protected in a way that is far more difficult for witnesses.


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    #1517
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    jimmycrackcorm wrote: »
    It's not that many years (14) since Denis Donaldson was executed for betraying Sinn Fein.
    They don't take too kindly to anyone who doesn't toe the line.
    Apparently the hit job was outsourced to the Real IRA.

    or mi5 - covering their own tracks maybe?


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    #1518
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,564 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Yurt! wrote: »
    You're conflating witnesses with a jury. Witnesses are still required for conviction.

    Juries can be anonymised and protected in a way that is far more difficult for witnesses.

    Again not like with like. A witness has a choice and upon choosing they know the risks.

    In terms of hiding jurors - a juror is still going to be nervous, is still under threat.

    The SCC is there to avoid that.


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    #1519
    Yurt2
    Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Again not like with like. A witness has a choice and upon choosing they know the risks.

    In terms of hiding jurors - a juror is still going to be nervous, is still under threat.

    The SCC is there to avoid that.

    You think that witnesses can ignore subpeonas willy nilly?

    Also, know the history of the SCC. It was originally formed during the emergency, not to protect witnesses, but rather to ensure people with republican sympathies wouldn't be on juries (perhaps a valid concern at the time where Irish political life was far more partisan than it is now but a nonsense in the 21st century). It was resurrected reflexively because of similar sentiments.


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    #1520
    smurgen
    Registered Users Posts: 6,933 ✭✭✭smurgen


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    Norway?

    https://www.newsinenglish.no/2017/01/20/norway-to-drop-jury-system-on-appeal/

    Did ya read your own link bud?morto!


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    #1521
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    smurgen wrote: »
    My god backwards countries like Switzerland Norway the Netherlands and Finland all of which use juries must be absolutely over run by drug gangs. Their poor citizens are probably fleeing in droves. If only they got rid of juries like countries like Mexico Columbia and South Africa.

    Finland don't use juries. Neither do south Africa
    Norway & Sweden both use judges & lay judges, maybe 2 or 3 lay judges. No juries.

    Edit, no Mexico don't use the jury system either.

    The countries using juries usually tend to be common law countries, most Commonwealth countries. All based on the original English system.


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    #1522
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    What about witnesses, barrister and judges, are they immune from intimidation?

    No, & judges sitting in the SCC are granted protection.


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    #1523
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,761 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    smurgen wrote: »
    Did ya read your own link bud?morto!

    I did, and I understood it. You picked the wrong list of countries.


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    #1524
    McMurphy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    Apparently the public meeting in Cork last night was a roaring success - standing room only over a thousand in attendance despite the seating plan designed for 500 according to Newstalks Barry White, who thinks FF/FG will be quite envious of what the shinners engineered.

    Half tempted to go along to liberty hall this evening for curiosity more than anything else.

    https://twitter.com/sinnfeinireland/status/1232031882138849282?s=19



    Leo would better have more slurs in the reserve tank, because the surge of the shinners is continuing.

    They're playing a blinder - he's a dead duck leader now, I wouldn't be surprised to see a heave against him soon, he's stumbling from one PR disaster to another. The only problem is the lack of any obvious credible alternative to replace him .


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    #1525
    Niallof9
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,287 ✭✭✭Niallof9


    smurgen wrote: »
    My god backwards countries like Switzerland Norway the Netherlands and Finland all of which use juries must be absolutely over run by drug gangs. Their poor citizens are probably fleeing in droves. If only they got rid of juries like countries like Mexico Columbia and South Africa.

    You clearly haven't a clue what you are talking about: The Netherlands justice system? is largely based on that of France: there is no jury system and the state rather than the individual initiates legal proceedings.

    You do know about the crime in those last three countries right?

    Ireland has very little scope for witness protection, jury protection etc.

    The IRA dragged mothers out of bed and killed them in the middle of the night. They would have had no problem killing/intimidating jurors.

    Similar to the gangland we have today, where the Kinahan are described as narco terrorists with huge sway and influence.


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    #1526
    Niallof9
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,287 ✭✭✭Niallof9


    McMurphy wrote: »
    Apparently the public meeting in Cork last night was a roaring success - standing room only over a thousand in attendance despite the seating plan designed for 500 according to Newstalks Barry White, who thinks FF/FG will be quite envious of what the shinners engineered.

    Half tempted to go along to liberty hall this evening for curiosity more than anything else.

    https://twitter.com/sinnfeinireland/status/1232031882138849282?s=19



    Leo would better have more slurs in the reserve tank, because the surge of the shinners is continuing.

    They're playing a blinder - he's a dead duck leader now, I wouldn't be surprised to see a heave against him soon, he's stumbling from one PR disaster to another. The only problem is the lack of any obvious credible alternative to replace him .

    By going to the rally you are supporting them. Is this one of those i didn't vote for SF but...sure. We know you did. Fair enough


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    #1527
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,254 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Niallof9 wrote: »
    By going to the rally you are supporting them.

    I presume they don't brand you or take a pound of flesh. Relax Niall. nobody is gonna bite you if you go along for a listen.


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    #1528
    Runaways
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭Runaways


    Sinn Fein our on the road meeting the electorate taking questions from those in attendance on policy and outcomes.

    FF/FG? Sitting in the Dáil arguing over who gets to be Taoiseach.

    This is going to hurt FFFG in a big way in a second election. Genius move and perfectly timed by SF


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    #1529
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,254 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Runaways wrote: »
    Sinn Fein our on the road meeting the electorate taking questions from those in attendance on policy and outcomes.

    FF/FG? Sitting in the Dáil arguing over who gets to be Taoiseach.

    This is going to hurt FFFG in a big way in a second election. Genius move and perfectly timed by SF

    Sometimes it is glaringly obvious that there is nobody in FG to say, 'Just say nothing Leo, ignore it'. Again and again he is allowed take to the airwaves and he just constantly makes things worse.


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    #1530
    Runaways
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭Runaways


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Sometimes it is glaringly obvious that there is nobody in FG to say, 'Just say nothing Leo, ignore it'. Again and again he is allowed take to the airwaves and he just constantly makes things worse.


    He’s making all these petulant childish comments and I’m wondering who does he want to hear this? Like who is the message for? Because it’s backfiring wildly and making him look like a spoiled entitled petulant child.


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    #1531
    McMurphy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    Niallof9 wrote: »
    By going to the rally you are supporting them. Is this one of those i didn't vote for SF but...sure. We know you did. Fair enough

    Oh I gave SF a number one this time out, have done so in the past too, not religiously though, I've voted socdems in the past, also voted FF before - blindly following a party no matter what is part of why the country is where it is.

    What s strange post tbh.


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