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Gardaí: Provo Army Council oversees PIRA & SF

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    #1472
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,564 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    jm08 wrote: »
    Even Drew Harris says it needs to be looked at as plenty of civil liberties organisations like Amnesty and Irish Council of Civil Liberties.


    PS, I don't think Sinn Fein want to abolish it.

    Civil Liberties organisations?

    So we are going to make it harder to lock up drug lords because we might be infringing their civil liberties?

    That's Ireland all over really, isn't it?

    Should be the opposite - less civil liberties, more locked up.


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    #1473
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,254 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Civil Liberties organisations?

    So we are going to make it harder to lock up drug lords because we might be infringing their civil liberties?

    That's Ireland all over really, isn't it?

    Should be the opposite - less civil liberties, more locked up.

    Drug lords get locked up in countries without special powers.


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    #1474
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,421 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    'Those' in the south deal with these people everyday of the week.

    What really irks some in the south is that the cozy power swap is gone/over/kaput.

    M. Martin would have been in to government with SF like a hot snot had he gotten the 50 seats he thought he was getting on the Sunday night after the election.
    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/election-2020/martin-opens-the-door-to-coalition-with-sinn-fein-38941313.html

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/fianna-f%C3%A1il-reaction-martin-opens-door-to-government-with-fg-or-sf-1.4167246

    He couldn't sell going in as an equal party though so he ramped up the rethoric again.

    So your “proof” that Martin would have been happy to have gone into government with Sinn Fein if he had got 50 seats is a link to 2 newspaper articles where he says he is a democrat?

    This “proof” from someone who thinks accusing Gerry Adams of IRA membership is jumping to conclusions?

    You are like a besotted teenager or creepy stalker who interprets every mannerism of the object of their obsession as a sign of their undying love. Despite being told clearly and often how repulsive they are.

    Why can’t you accept the reality that It is unrequited love?

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



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    #1475
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,564 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Drug lords get locked up in countries without special powers.

    It was set up because juries were being intimidated.

    Would you go on a jury against these guys in this small country of ours?

    You may as well break your own legs to get out of it.


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    #1476
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    You would need to be a genius of linguistics to understand what they want.


    This is fairly clear here:

    The party's justice spokesperson Martin Kenny says there are clear issues with the Special Criminal Court:
    "It's a 19th century implement to deal with 21st century crime.
    "We need to have a review," he added. "In 2017, we sought a comprehensive review."
    Speaking on the campaign trail earlier in the week party leader Mary Lou McDonald said the court was "not unproblematic" but said it would put its existence under review, rather than outright abolish it, if in government.


    https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/sinn-fein-call-for-review-not-abolition-of-special-criminal-court-976322.html


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    #1477
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,421 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Drug lords get locked up in countries without special powers.

    What about the spies employed by political parties spying in the national parliament like the Aengus O Snoadaigh Sinn Fein agents jailed by the special criminal court.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



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    #1478
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,564 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    jm08 wrote: »
    This is fairly clear here:





    https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/sinn-fein-call-for-review-not-abolition-of-special-criminal-court-976322.html

    Same question to you - are you willing to sit on a jury in these cases?


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    #1479
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Fr_Dougal wrote: »
    Not nice when you see the faces of innocent victims, is it? Makes it all real.

    As regards what? You thought they were all killed by the IRA and were claiming to try educate SF voters. Then you start back peddling about both sides or some crap.
    So this comment now doesn't even make sense. If anyone should feel ashamed it's you.
    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    What the Garda Commissioner said has been a very real subject of discussion in the country. I am disappointed that it was not raised at the meeting.

    No it's not. It's the latest bullsh*t distraction. As a tax payer I'd rather the media and FG centeted on real life issues. I expected former IRA members were involved with SF. Anyone says otherwise is lying or naive.
    MI5 and Varadkar infer an active IRA are calling the shots. I think that's bullsh*t. Hopefully the people signed up to the GFA do too.
    Varadkar has zero respect for the hard fought GFA.


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    #1480
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,564 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Bowie wrote: »
    I think that's bullsh*t. Hopefully the people signed up to the GFA too.
    Varadkar has zero respect for the hard fought GFA.

    They are privy to intelligence you are not privy to.

    They will know exactly who the problem individuals in SF are and some of them may well be elected members.

    I wouldn't jump the gun.


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    #1481
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,760 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Bowie wrote: »

    No it's not. It's the latest bullsh*t distraction. As a tax payer I'd rather the media and FG centeted in real life issues.

    Politicians from all parties are discomfited on occasions by what appears in the media. If SF get into government they will have to get used to close scrutiny.

    And there should be no tolerance of moves to silence the media. They fought hard to get Sinn Fein a voice, when that was outlawed.


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    #1482
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    100 years ago is done and dusted. The problem facing the security of the state, the integrity of its democracy, its respect among the free nations of the world, and its soul as a country of morality and humanity, is the consideration that supporters of terrorism are seeking to grab hold of the levers of power. FG's history is no factor in that. SF/IRA's is.


    History throws up the same issues again and again. The Free State's solution to former 'freedom fighters'/'terrorists'/ etc. was to actually execute them. That isn't an option nowadays, so what do you do with these people who eventually put down their arms and use the political route. Take Sean MacBride - opposed the Treaty, set up a political party that was outlawed by the Free State Gov., in the 20s, became Chief of Staff of the IRA, eventually went the peaceful route and formed another political party, went into Gov. (with Fine Gael), was co-founder of Amnesty, and various other peaceful agencies. Awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1974.



    Not bad going for a former Chief of Staff of the illegal IRA. I hope all yesterday's terrorists will follow a similar route as MacBride.


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    #1483
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    They are privy to intelligence you are not privy to.

    They will know exactly who the problem individuals in SF are and some of them may well be elected members.

    I wouldn't jump the gun.

    Or they could be lying? Do you think Harris or MI5 should be trusted blindly? We can't trust our Garda or politicians so it's not automatic no.
    Also they inferred they were active. The members didn't go anywhere. Makes sense they'd be involved in politics.


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    #1484
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    They are privy to intelligence you are not privy to.

    They will know exactly who the problem individuals in SF are and some of them may well be elected members.

    I wouldn't jump the gun.

    They also know that there are more moles in SF than the Avogadro number, so its very easy for both UK and republic security services to keep tabs on what is really going on. Some are also on the Army Council, and so the organisation, at national security level, are an open book.


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    #1485
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,564 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    jm08 wrote: »
    This is fairly clear here:





    https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/sinn-fein-call-for-review-not-abolition-of-special-criminal-court-976322.html

    I note you have not answered my question as to whether you would serve on a jury in these cases if the Special Criminal Court was altered/abolished.

    Let me put it more vividly so you can understand it.

    Are you willing to serve and after that first day when they see your face are you content to go about your business with notions in your mind that some thug could pull up in a car, on a bike or at your house any time and put a bullet in your head?

    Are you willing to do that?


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    #1486
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    They also know that there are more moles in SF than the Avogadro number, so its very easy for both UK and republic security services to keep tabs on what is really going on. Some are also on the Army Council, and so the organisation, at national security level, are an open book.

    Obviously nothing illegal happening so. The sour grapes from you folk is more frightening than your fairy tales.


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    #1487
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,254 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    It was set up because juries were being intimidated.

    Would you go on a jury against these guys in this small country of ours?

    You may as well break your own legs to get out of it.

    Juries are protected in other countries without Special Powers.


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    #1488
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,760 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Bowie wrote: »



    No it's not. It's the latest bullsh*t distraction. As a tax payer I'd rather the media and FG centeted on real life issues. I expected former IRA members were involved with SF. Anyone says otherwise is lying or naive.
    MI5 and Varadkar infer an active IRA are calling the shots. I think that's bullsh*t. Hopefully the people signed up to the GFA do too.
    Varadkar has zero respect for the hard fought GFA.

    It has been covered extensively on radio, TV and the papers. And making the claim that it is not a subject of current interest in a thread with the title this one has, is ironic.


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    #1489
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,254 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    They also know that there are more moles in SF than the Avogadro number, so its very easy for both UK and republic security services to keep tabs on what is really going on. Some are also on the Army Council, and so the organisation, at national security level, are an open book.

    How do you know there are 'moles' by the way?

    Was somebody trying to sell you a buke? :D


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    #1490
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,254 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    It has been covered extensively on radio, TV and the papers. And making the claim that it is not a subject of current interest in a thread with the title this one has, is ironic.

    I would say the electorate lost interest the way this thread has for most of it's content.


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    #1491
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,564 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Juries are protected in other countries without Special Powers.

    You are willing to sit on a jury then?

    You'd change your tune pretty quick if you were called up.


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    #1492
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,760 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    How do you know there are 'moles' by the way?

    Was somebody trying to sell you a buke? :D

    There are bound to be moles. In the old days the IRA was allowed to kill them. They can't do that any more.


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    #1493
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,254 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    You are willing to sit on a jury then?

    You'd change your tune pretty quick if you were called up.

    I've sat on two in my time. Not a problem at all.
    You can't refuse by the way unless you have a good excuse.

    Would you be a 'mole' for the Gardai, is a better question, given every dog in the street knows they are at work? :)


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    #1494
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Same question to you - are you willing to sit on a jury in these cases?


    I have a friend who was on the jury for the Limerick gangland crimes. The cases were tried in Dublin.


    During the same debate, Labour’s then Justice spokesperson Pat Rabbitte expressed scepticism about claims that jury intimidation necessitated the use of the SCC for gang-related crime:
    What is special about the Special Criminal Court is that it sits without a jury, and there is one justification only for a non-jury court, that is, where jury members are being intimidated. There is no evidence that jury members are being intimidated.


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    #1495
    smurgen
    Registered Users Posts: 6,933 ✭✭✭smurgen


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    If the Minister for Health or Housing had dropped in, I expect they would have been greeted cordially.

    Why should he he's a terrible minister? I doubt he'd be welcome at a fg meeting at this stage.he deserves to be shunned he's so brutal at his job.


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    #1496
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Juries are protected in other countries without Special Powers.

    And some other countries don't have juries at all.


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    #1497
    smurgen
    Registered Users Posts: 6,933 ✭✭✭smurgen


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Same question to you - are you willing to sit on a jury in these cases?

    Are you telling us other countries that don't have special criminal courts don't have ways of protecting jury members is this what you are saying?


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    #1498
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Civil Liberties organisations?

    So we are going to make it harder to lock up drug lords because we might be infringing their civil liberties?

    That's Ireland all over really, isn't it?

    Should be the opposite - less civil liberties, more locked up.


    Beat up and locked up like this?
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/wronged-man-still-seeking-answers-40-years-after-sallins-train-robbery-1.3673264


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    #1499
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,564 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    I've sat on two in my time. Not a problem at all.
    You can't refuse by the way unless you have a good excuse.

    Against a Kinahan for example?

    Of course juries are not being intimidated because there are no juries.

    Again...
    Are you willing to serve and after that first day when they see your face are you content to go about your business with notions in your mind that some thug could pull up in a car, on a bike or at your house any time and put a bullet in your head?

    Ireland is a small country, everyone can be found. Not to mention the paid moles some of these gangs have had in the garda.

    People are all high and moral until it impacts on them.


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    #1500
    smurgen
    Registered Users Posts: 6,933 ✭✭✭smurgen


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Against a Kinahan for example?

    Of course juries are not being intimidated because there are no juries.

    Again...



    Ireland is a small country, everyone can be found. Not to mention the paid moles some of these gangs have had in the garda.

    People are all high and moral until it impacts on them.

    The Kinahans have thrived while the SCC has existed.at least try to use examples that supports your argument!


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    #1501
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Against a Kinahan for example?

    Of course juries are not being intimidated because there are no juries.

    Again...

    Ireland is a small country, everyone can be found. Not to mention the paid moles some of these gangs have had in the garda.

    People are all high and moral until it impacts on them.


    From what I understand the SSC legally is designed for terrorist activity, not for crime activity. What most say (including Drew Harris) is that it needs to be reviewed and reformed to maybe cater for this gangland activity.


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