Immigration authorities raid places of employment

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Boggles wrote: »

They weren't trafficked or smuggled in by criminal gangs, the vast majority of undocumented people enter the state legally.

'Some' may be on overstayed/expired student visas, as they're undocumented this can't be confirmed. It's might be equally likely that many more were never students in the 1st place.

As 'undocumented' migrants, they are more or less invisable to authorities. Thus operate and survive within the black market, which by it's nature isn't prone to paying undocumented taxes is it? Usually operated by criminal gangs and traffickers.

Do you think the undocumented submit tax returns every year, listing their amount, and sources of undocumented irregular cash-in-hand income or wha?

Boggles

Kye Refined Ozone wrote: »

'Some' may be on overstayed/expired student visas

The majority of undocumented migrants in Ireland entered the State legally

Again WTF are you talking about?

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Boggles wrote: »

Again WTF are you talking about?

Eh? WTF are you talking about?

If someone is undocumented how are they documented and thus accounted for? It's largely guesswork to assume they arrived as students, or anything else. You can't account or document for someone leaping out of van from Rosslare.

It's well know Illegal migrants stay under the radar and remain undocumented, they do not seek to register with authorities, as they will then become documented, and face the prospect of removal. They survive by working (cash in hand, tax exempt) in the black market, operated by gangmasters.

If Jose or Joe arrives in the US/Aus/EU illegally, and remains under the radar they are then classed as undocumented. when any visa (if they even use a visa in the 1st place) expires. In most cases they will face swift removal if discovered and then become 'documented as an illegal migrant'.

Boggles

Kye Refined Ozone wrote: »

Eh? WTF are you talking about?

I'll try once more, the majority of the undocumented come into the country legally.

For some absolute bizarre reason you banged on about them working the black market to pay off criminal traffickers?

Why would anyone who came into a country through completely legal methods.

A. Need a criminal trafficker.
B. Pay them

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Boggles wrote: »

I'll try once more, the majority of the undocumented come into the country legally.

Once again, straight from dictionary.com...


undocumented : adjective. lacking documentation or authentication.

Boggles

Jesus. :rolleyes:

Anyway.

It seems we all ready had a limited amnesty.

The Government did introduce a scheme for undocumented migrants who had entered Ireland as students, on the back of a court judgement. The scheme was opened for three months, from October 15, 2018, to January 20, 2019, to nationals from outside the European Economic Area (EEA) who were resident in Ireland and who had held a valid student permission during the period of January 1, 2005, to December 31, 2010.

No reason not to continue with more.

Also it would appear some do indeed pay income tax.

here are between 20,000 and 26,000 undocumented migrants in Ireland. Some 89% of them have jobs, with 32% of them working in the food and accommodation sector, 29% in domestic work, and 13% in cleaning and maintenance jobs — 84% of these people have lived here for more than five years.

However, though some have PPS numbers and pay tax, they have no access to social welfare or healthcare.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/specialreports/just-as-the-us-had-its-undocumented-irish-so-now-ireland-has-its-own-illegals-916077.html

Considering the vast vast majority of them are hard workers, all pay some form of tax but are not entitled to benefits, it is time for another amnesty.

Good for them, society and the economy.

As Boris Johnson said.

4068ac1elhodqr

And according to MRCI 11% don't have jobs, of the ones that do have 'jobs' many don't even have PPS numbers (as would be expected with any undocumented individual).
Thus many don't pay tax on their cash-in-hand withiin the black-economy.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/specialreports/just-as-the-us-had-its-undocumented-irish-so-now-ireland-has-its-own-illegals-916077.html

Also states: "some came with nothing, but needed to earn a living and send money home" - that's hardly an economic win for the state is it? Sending money back (to their likely traffickers).

The temporary amnesty only ever applied to Students.
Also there is no evidence that the 'majority' were ever students.

Indeed it's hard to find any evidence of status and numbers regarding the undocumented, as, they're 'undocumented' (without proper documents).
Throw in MRCI's own bias, and who knows what the actual story is.

The report also claims "the undocumented change your baby’s nappy. They help with your childrens’ homework. They care for your elderly parent"
All of this without any background checks, appropriate qualifications, relevant references, security checks, 1st aid courses, ID documents?
And in many cases not even a PPS number for taxation, that someone legal and properly qualified for, should be doing and paying taxes from.

The poster above seems to have keen support Boris's ideals, which is rather bizzare.
migrants should not ‘treat UK as their own’ - Boris J. Dec 2019.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/boris-johnson-eu-migrants-immigration-britain-general-election-a9238941.html

Mr Johnson said he would reduce immigration using a points-based visa system,
vowing to “bear down on migration particularly of unskilled workers who have no job to come to".

Boggles

Kye Refined Ozone wrote: »

And according to MRCI 11% don't have jobs,

So just an 89% employment rate so.

:rolleyes:

I'd gladly swap them for a fair few of our work shy.

SEPT 23 1989

The CSO statistics don't really add up do they?

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Boggles wrote: »

So just an 89% employment rate so.
I'd gladly swap them for a fair few of our work shy.

So you've prefer 11% on the dole, instead of what is often called (rightly or wrongly) as zero-unemployment?
Strange.

You'd also prefer folks often work cash-in-hand in the black market, doing god knows what, for hell knows who, and with no documentation as to who they are: if they're safe, legal or qualfied to even do such roles, it in the first place.
Cash money (with no tax paid on it) that is often sent out of the country, often to pay back their traffickers and family there under duress.

That all sounds reallyyy dddreeaaaaammy.

Timberrrrrrrr

Kye Refined Ozone wrote: »

So you've prefer 11% on the dole, instead of what is often called (rightly or wrongly) as zero-unemployment?
Strange.

You'd also prefer folks often work cash-in-hand in the black market, doing god knows what, for hell knows who, and with no documentation as to who they are: if they're safe, legal or qualfied to even do such roles, it in the first place.
Cash money (with no tax paid on it) that is often sent out of the country, often to pay back their traffickers and family there under duress.

That all sounds reallyyy dddreeaaaaammy.

Wheres your evidence for this repeated claim?

Boggles

Kye Refined Ozone wrote: »

So you've prefer 11% on the dole.

Well I can see you don't quite understand the stat.

It's an 89% labor participation rate.

You should look it up, it's phenomenal.

30+% higher than the EU average.

Ireland are roughly at 62%.

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Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Wheres your evidence for this repeated claim?

This is news to you? Seems like it would be common public domain knowledge to anyone who reads a (broadsheet) newspaper, or watch the tellybox news, even once in a while.

i) Many undocument are trafficked.
ii) This involves a very significant fee, or debt promise to pay such.
ii) If taken as loan, relatives (safety, there of) can often be considered as guarantor for such loan fulfilment, by the traffickers. The alternative may be to work 10yrs for crumbs, to pay the debt. Naturally any deviance from that plan results in the before mentioned penalty enforced.

You do remember the recent case of the poor Viet people found in a truck in Kent last year? Their families paid almost everything they had to facilitate them, or took a loan on their behalf, if not enough cash handy.

It was widely reported these poor subjects were likely headed for grow houses, nail bars, and such like - if they didn't perform their tasks, again some penalty (or threat thereof) would be used to ensure compliance.

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Boggles wrote: »

... labor participation rate..

You should understand that any labour participation rate (in this instance/scenario) might well involve tax-free 'off the book' earnings, below minimum cash-in-hand rates, forced labour or even 'modern day slavery'.

Joyful stuff eh? You desire/encourage this?
Ah well.

Timberrrrrrrr

Kye Refined Ozone wrote: »

This is news to you? Seems like it would be common public domain knowledge to anyone who reads a (broadsheet) newspaper, or watch the tellybox news, even once in a while.

i) Many undocument are trafficked.
ii) This involves a very significant fee, or debt promise to pay such.
ii) If taken as loan, relatives (safety, there of) can often be considered as guarantor for such loan fulfilment, by the traffickers. The alternative may be to work 10yrs for crumbs, to pay the debt. Naturally any deviance from that plan results in the before mentioned penalty enforced.

You do remember the recent case of the poor Viet people found in a truck in Kent last year? Their families paid almost everything they had to facilitate them, or took a loan on their behalf, if not enough cash handy.

It was widely reported these poor subjects were likely headed for grow houses, nail bars, and such like - if they didn't perform their tasks, again some penalty (or threat thereof) would be used to ensure compliance.

So no evidence for your claim about undocumented immigrants in Ireland sending money home "often to pay back their traffickers and family there under duress".

Thought that would be the case, thanks for clarifying.

Boggles

Again just so we are clear, the majority of the undocumented in Ireland came her legally.

They are over stayers, just like the Irish in New York, Boston, etc.

I know a fair few of them and none are working to pay off criminal traffickers.

Boggles

Kye Refined Ozone wrote: »

You should understand that any labour participation rate (in this instance/scenario) might well involve tax-free 'off the book' earnings, below minimum cash-in-hand rates, forced labour or even 'modern day slavery'.

Joyful stuff eh? You desire/encourage this?
Ah well.

Is there something wrong with you?

3 times now I have stated they should be given an amnesty.

weldoninhio

Boggles wrote: »

Again just so we are clear, the majority of the undocumented in Ireland came her legally.

They are over stayers, just like the Irish in New York, Boston, etc.

I know a fair few of them and none are working to pay off criminal traffickers.

The majority of undocumented people KNOWN to have entered Ireland came here legally. We literally have zero idea who crosses the border from NI illegally or enters on the back of trucks. Channel 4 did a programme called Smuggled. It’s on their player. It may open your eyes. It was about people being smuggled into the U.K., but one of them entered from France via ROI. It’s extremely easy.

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Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Thought that would be the case, thanks for clarifying.

So you have no evidence for your claim, and all is 100% above board, thanks for clarifying. Tally ho.

Boggles wrote: »

Again just so we are clear, the majority of the undocumented in Ireland came her legally.
They are over stayers, just like the Irish in New York, Boston, etc.

I know a fair few of them and none are working to pay off criminal traffickers.

By nature 'undocumented' means very little is known about them, theyre... undocumented.

Any overstayers in the US are (unsurprisingly) removed, welcome to law 101. Also in the US, likely many more may cross the Mex border without documentation, or notification of intention, before doing so, guess you could call that undocumented.

So you know a 'fair few' of the undocumented. Go figure.
Car wash, mincabs, nail bar, fast-food is it?

Timberrrrrrrr

Kye Refined Ozone wrote: »

So you have no evidence for your claim, and all is 100% above board, thanks for clarifying. Tally ho.


By nature 'undocumented' means very little is known about them, theyre... undocumented.

Any overstayers in the US are (unsurprisingly) removed, welcome to law 101. Also in the US, likely many more may cross the Mex border without documentation, or notification of intention, before doing so, guess you could call that undocumented.

So you know a 'fair few' of the undocumented. Go figure.
Car wash, mincabs, nail bar, fast-food is it?

No I don't, unlike you I'm willing to admit that.

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Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

No I don't, unlike you I'm willing to admit that.

Talking about likelyhoods.

But you can understand probability yourself. You also enjoy throwing some notes on e.g. the GrandNational, based purley on unproven but still considered expectation upon some horse, like many of us might do.

Boggles

weldoninhio wrote: »

The majority of undocumented people KNOWN to have entered Ireland came here legally. We literally have zero idea who crosses the border from NI illegally or enters on the back of trucks. Channel 4 did a programme called Smuggled. It’s on their player. It may open your eyes. It was about people being smuggled into the U.K., but one of them entered from France via ROI. It’s extremely easy.

So you know of one based on an English documentary.

Cool.

Boggles

Kye Refined Ozone wrote: »

Any overstayers in the US are (unsurprisingly) removed,

They also implement amnesty.

Lonesomerhodes

The likes of Flexsource doubt they even have a legal person on books working in their warehouses.

I know many many people come here on student Visa's forge documents to stay here, change dates etc on the student visa and what not.

Boggles

Lonesomerhodes wrote: »

The likes of Flexsource doubt they even have a legal person on books working in their warehouses.

I know many many people come here on student Visa's forge documents to stay here, change dates etc on the student visa and what not.

And of course you can furnish the thread with some tangible evidence to back up your claims.

When you are ready.

Pronto63

Boggles wrote: »

About 26,000 "undocumented" people in Ireland. The vast majority who work.



A sensible amnesty should be introduced much like the one Boris Johnson has proposed in the UK. (Yes the bould Bojo).

It would benefit not just them, but the country and the economy as a whole.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/varadkar-urged-not-to-forget-undocumented-living-in-ireland-1.3429507

No point in an amnesty until such time as general immigration policy and procedures are tightened.

If we don’t tighten things we’ll only have to have another amnesty in another 5/10 years.

You know that we don’t even put exit stamps in the passport of people leaving the country. We really have no idea who is here and who has left!

Pronto63

Kye Refined Ozone wrote: »

'Some' may be on overstayed/expired student visas, as they're undocumented this can't be confirmed. It's might be equally likely that many more were never students in the 1st place.

As 'undocumented' migrants, they are more or less invisable to authorities. Thus operate and survive within the black market, which by it's nature isn't prone to paying undocumented taxes is it? Usually operated by criminal gangs and traffickers.

Do you think the undocumented submit tax returns every year, listing their amount, and sources of undocumented irregular cash-in-hand income or wha?

They could well be paying tax. Revenue don’t talk to INIS. They don’t ring up and say we have a Mr Khan or a Mr Gomez here paying some PAYE! Is he legal.

Boggles

Pronto63 wrote: »

No point in an amnesty until such time as general immigration policy and procedures are tightened.

If we don’t tighten things we’ll only have to have another amnesty in another 5/10 years.

You know that we don’t even put exit stamps in the passport of people leaving the country. We really have no idea who is here and who has left!

Over stayers, the majority of the undocumented don't / can't leave, an exit stamp would be useless. Every country has over stayers, it's not unique to Ireland. Oz have about 100k.

As for "general immigration policy and procedures are tightened".

What do you mean by this, what is loose?

Yurt2

Pronto63 wrote: »

No point in an amnesty until such time as general immigration policy and procedures are tightened.

If we don’t tighten things we’ll only have to have another amnesty in another 5/10 years.

You know that we don’t even put exit stamps in the passport of people leaving the country. We really have no idea who is here and who has left!

I've long thought that Ireland should start operating a system of exit checks. It's difficult to achieve with the CTA with the UK however.

weldoninhio

Boggles wrote: »

So you know of one based on an English documentary.

Cool.

One documentary in which they were able to smuggle 8 people from different points all over Europe into the UK, including 1 via Ireland.