FG to just do nothing for the next 5 years.

Mortelaro

Bowie wrote: »

Based on the fact that FG do many deals and those deals are poor for the tax payer, based on that alone, I believe some form of criticism is warranted. Absolutely no theory there. Maybe Mr. O'Brien is simply taking advantage of FG incompetence?
Cronyism isn't always illegal. Doing big deals with the same man repeatedly. Nothing to see here? Not very fiscally conservative IMO.

Like a good lad,would you mind having a trawl here for the relevant reports backing up your accusations of the poor value for money, these 'fine Gael' deals are thanks particularly those with Dinny, thanks

James Brown

Mortelaro wrote: »

Like a good lad,would you mind having a trawl here for the relevant reports backing up your accusations of the poor value for money, these 'fine Gael' deals are thanks particularly those with Dinny, thanks

I'm here to post in discussions not do your homework. If you don't follow the news or think FG do us great deals, it would explain a lot.
You won't find all the details of the Sitserv deal in there as the investigation is ongoing. The loss to the tax payer was published. Many of us have previously covered such things in great detail on Boards. It has a nifty search function.
Cronyism isn't always illegal nor would folk be inclined to publish how 'we look after our own'.

christy c

Bowie wrote: »

Maybe Mr. O'Brien is simply taking advantage of FG incompetence?

I would say it is a mix of that, things being more difficult than they seem, and confirmation bias.

Dinny is a billionaire, it may be questionable how he got there but it shows he's no fool. I wouldnt certainly fancy myself against his negotiation skills.

Secondly these are complex things, fcuk ups are inevitable unfortunately. Especially with the people we elect.

And lastly, if someone gets an idea in their head, they naturally look for things which back up their opinion. So as I mentioned, we are spending a billion on PPE, but Dinny gets the focus.

Mortelaro

Bowie wrote: »

I'm here to post in discussions not do your homework. If you don't follow the news or think FG do us great deals, it would explain a lot.
You won't find all the details of the Sitserv deal in there as the investigation is ongoing. The loss to the tax payer was published. Many of us have previously covered such things in great detail on Boards. It has a nifty search function.
Cronyism isn't always illegal nor would folk be inclined to publish how 'we look after our own'.

So that's a No so
Run on tin foil hats methinks

satguy

It is clear, that until one, or both, of the two main protagonists of the moriarty tribunal see justice served, FG will always have the likes of this hanging around their necks like a stone..

It will pull them under, it will hold them back, but most of all, it will always hurt them.

And old long time Boardies like myself, will be ready to dig up the dirt, and shine a light on it.

christy c

satguy wrote: »

And old long time Boardies like myself, will be ready to dig up the dirt, and shine a light on it.

You regurgitate conspiracy theories, then leg it when questioned. Doubt anyone takes you seriously.

James Brown

christy c wrote: »

I would say it is a mix of that, things being more difficult than they seem, and confirmation bias.

Dinny is a billionaire, it may be questionable how he got there but it shows he's no fool. I wouldnt certainly fancy myself against his negotiation skills.

Secondly these are complex things, fcuk ups are inevitable unfortunately. Especially with the people we elect.

And lastly, if someone gets an idea in their head, they naturally look for things which back up their opinion. So as I mentioned, we are spending a billion on PPE, but Dinny gets the focus.

I agree with you, however as regards Mr. O'Brien his name crops up an inordinate amount of times, often associated with a bad deal for the tax payer. It's things like the NCH over run and hames made of setting up Irish Water that are the saving graces for FG, the evidence weighing more towards incompetence and low grade cronyism than willfully engaging in bad deals for any nefarious reasons IMO, not that FG don't have previous for that either.

Runaways

Mortelaro wrote: »

So that's a No so
Run on tin foil hats methinks

You’re either lying or ignorant of your own parties history they’re not that long ago were promising the government have to change the way things are done and the way they carry out business and saying they Were the party of change

All bollocks as evidenced by the rental of O Brien’s hospitals at obscene cost to the taxpayer

christy c

Bowie wrote: »

I agree with you, however as regards Mr. O'Brien his name crops up an inordinate amount of times, often associated with a bad deal for the tax payer. It's things like the NCH over run and hames made of setting up Irish Water that are the saving graces for FG, the evidence weighing more towards incompetence and low grade cronyism than willfully engaging in bad deals for any nefarious reasons IMO, not that FG don't have previous for that either.

His name crops up because he owns a lot of sh1t therefore is involved in a lot of deals. Maybe there is ongoing corruption, but not much evidence of that so far.

I agree re FG incompetence, however when you compare them to others it makes voting more difficult than you would first think. For example, you would look at the NCH and think "I could never vote for FG". But then you see idiots like Micheal Martin and Pearse Doherty saying to pour petrol on the fire that is the pension problem for example.

Now everyone arrives at their choice differently, but simply saying "do not vote party X" is not clear cut.

Mortelaro

Runaways wrote: »

All bollocks as evidenced by the rental of O Brien’s hospitals at obscene cost to the taxpayer

Any evidence to back that up,how many hospitals does he own in the agreement, what percentage?
Secondly if it's the market rate,I'm afraid it's the market rate
The beds,ICU's and staff were all wanted
No democracy could sequester those hospitals

James Brown

christy c wrote: »

His name crops up because he owns a lot of sh1t therefore is involved in a lot of deals. Maybe there is ongoing corruption, but not much evidence of that so far.

I agree re FG incompetence, however when you compare them to others it makes voting more difficult than you would first think. For example, you would look at the NCH and think "I could never vote for FG". But then you see idiots like Micheal Martin and Pearse Doherty saying to pour petrol on the fire that is the pension problem for example.

Now everyone arrives at their choice differently, but simply saying "do not vote party X" is not clear cut.

In my opinion, his name crops up a lot in general bad deals for the tax payer. So either FG need stop doing business with him or up their game. The fact that two deals involving him and FG are/have been under investigation should be more than enough reason to award state contracts elsewhere IMO.

Yes FF and FG make their careers on 'sure the others would be worse'. I personally believe we deserve better and accepting the best of an as yet imagined worse is not for me and the electorate seem to be like minded. I gave them a vote in 2011 and was not happy with the result and as they have been seen to behave see no reason to give them another anytime soon. I think that's pretty reasonable.

christy c

Bowie wrote: »

Yes FF and FG make their careers on 'sure the others would be worse'. I personally believe we deserve better and accepting the best of an as yet imagined worse is not for me and the electorate seem to be like minded. I gave them a vote in 2011 and was not happy with the result and as they have been seen to behave see no reason to give them another anytime soon. I think that's pretty reasonable.

Regarding the "imagined worse", nothing imagined about Pearse Doherty announcing idiotic pension and tax plans only a few months ago, plus all the other nonsense we have seen from our parties of change. So as long as parties like this continue to announce BS policies, I see no reason to give them a vote. And a substantial portion of the electorate seem to agree with me.

But yeah, you are free to vote/not vote for whoever you want. As I said, everyone arrives at their choice differently.

James Brown

christy c wrote: »

Regarding the "imagined worse", nothing imagined about Pearse Doherty announcing idiotic pension and tax plans only a few months ago, plus all the other nonsense we have seen from our parties of change. So as long as parties like this continue to announce BS policies, I see no reason to give them a vote. And a substantial portion of the electorate seem to agree with me.

But yeah, you are free to vote/not vote for whoever you want. As I said, everyone arrives at their choice differently.

TBF, I don't take anything any of them say as written in stone. I'm war weary putting up with FF and FG and the growing ongoing national crises, the ignorant sneering attitude and rampant cronyism. All proven and par for the course with FF/FG.

christy c

Bowie wrote: »

TBF, I don't take anything any of them say as written in stone. I'm war weary putting up with FF and FG and the growing ongoing national crises, the ignorant sneering attitude and rampant cronyism. All proven and par for the course with FF/FG.

Again, people arrive at their decisions differently as is their right. For me, voting for people who promise to implement stupid policies, and who sneer at a significant portion of the electorate who choose to vote FG or FF would not be my cup of tea.

But give me a party with sensible economic policies, and who are not too concerned with the latest fad and I'll bite their hand off.

satguy

If Garret FitzGerald could see what some of these shysters have done to FG he might well weep in anguish.

Where have all the Garret's gone ?

True statesmen, true leaders.

When dark clouds hung over a corupt Haughey lead FF,, it was a FitzGerald lead FG that dragged the country into the light. Now its most certainly the other way round.

How did it happen ? Was it Enda ? ...

I think Enda was a weak leader, invisible most of the time, he was not strong enough to rein in the FG Boot Boys, in the end they took over.
It's been downhill since..

christy c

satguy wrote: »

If Garret FitzGerald could see what some of these shysters have done to FG he might well weep in anguish.

Where have all the Garret's gone ?

True statesmen, true leaders.

When dark clouds hung over a corupt Haughey lead FF,, it was a FitzGerald lead FG that dragged the country into the light. Now its most certainly the other way round.

How did it happen ? Was it Enda ? ...

I think Enda was a weak leader, invisible most of the time, he was not strong enough to rein in the FG Boot Boys, in the end they took over.
It's been downhill since..

Garret was actually part of the whole plan. He was put in there by a young Dennis O'Brien to make FG seem decent. Then when people like you were fooled he struck.

Mortelaro

satguy wrote: »

If Garret FitzGerald could see what some of these shysters have done to FG he might well weep in anguish.

Where have all the Garret's gone ?

True statesmen, true leaders.

When dark clouds hung over a corupt Haughey lead FF,, it was a FitzGerald lead FG that dragged the country into the light. Now its most certainly the other way round.

How did it happen ? Was it Enda ? ...

I think Enda was a weak leader, invisible most of the time, he was not strong enough to rein in the FG Boot Boys, in the end they took over.
It's been downhill since..

You need to take out a history book
That period was riddled with unemployment emigration depression and high taxes

Mortelaro

christy c wrote: »

Garret was actually part of the whole plan. He was put in there by a young Dennis O'Brien to make FG seem decent. Then when people like you were fooled he struck.

markodaly

satguy wrote: »

It's clear Sinn Féin are locked out of talks': Martin comes under fire from FF members

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/its-clear-sinn-fein-are-locked-out-of-talks-martin-comes-under-fire-from-ff-members-999272.html

This is the good bit..

John McGuinness, Fianna Fáil TD said there was a consensus within membership of the party and their elected TDs that they should speak to Sinn Féin.

This FG / FF / GP , marriage made in hell,, is not a done deal yet, and may not happen.

I said it about 20 pages back,, It may end up FF / SF / IND ,, with FF having switched out MM for someone better.

All well and good but this has nothing to do with FG.

RandomViewer

satguy wrote: »

If Garret FitzGerald could see what some of these shysters have done to FG he might well weep in anguish.

Where have all the Garret's gone ?

True statesmen, true leaders.

When dark clouds hung over a corupt Haughey lead FF,, it was a FitzGerald lead FG that dragged the country into the light. Now its most certainly the other way round.

How did it happen ? Was it Enda ? ...

I think Enda was a weak leader, invisible most of the time, he was not strong enough to rein in the FG Boot Boys, in the end they took over.
It's been downhill since..

Dukes was a disaster, Johnny Bruton had form from the 80's but still got to be leader, and as for Noonan, that's a Netflix series to look forward to

RandomViewer

Micky Martin wants a coalition of a Leo free FG, Coveneys going to work for brother so Harris or the Harry Potter lookalike as leader and the Children of Quorn as mudflaps

atticu

satguy wrote: »

Google who had the contract before Maxol..

Please explain how you think the OGP works.
Particularly as far as tenders are concerned.

Randy Archer

satguy wrote: »

If Garret FitzGerald could see what some of these shysters have done to FG he might well weep in anguish.

Where have all the Garret's gone ?

True statesmen, true leaders.

When dark clouds hung over a corupt Haughey lead FF,, it was a FitzGerald lead FG that dragged the country into the light. Now its most certainly the other way round.

How did it happen ? Was it Enda ? ...

I think Enda was a weak leader, invisible most of the time, he was not strong enough to rein in the FG Boot Boys, in the end they took over.
It's been downhill since..

Fitzgerald was a bumbling idiot , not the greatest Taoiseach ,and he couldn’t shake off the great CJ . Ironically, Fitz was hopeless with dealing with common people, like Leo, but decent on tv.

Leader ? Needless and excessively long cabinet meetings before a decision was made ..and the country crashing . Lemass and CJ didn’t tolerate that

Dragged the country into the light ? Bruton’s tax on shoes proposal
..... Anglo Irish Agreement ,like GFA ,was a repeat of Sunningdale in spirit . He was a lap dog for Thatcher

thequarefellow

Any chance that the justice department are pushing any of that promised, and long awaited law reform while things are quiet? In advance of the litigation storm that seems to be brewing.

Snow Garden

thequarefellow wrote: »

Any chance that the justice department are pushing any of that promised, and long awaited law reform while things are quiet? In advance of the litigation storm that seems to be brewing.

I think the likes of Madigan will ensure that never happens.

blanch152

atticu wrote: »

Please explain how you think the OGP works.
Particularly as far as tenders are concerned.

I have previously asked many of the posters who have raised this whether they have complained to the OGP or the EU Commission over the awarding of the contract, or whether they are aware of anyone else who has done so.

It is just not possible any more to award contracts such as those in a corrupt way in a place like Ireland - that is why we figure so high every year on the TI Index as a country free of corruption.

Absolute tinfoil hat stuff.

PommieBast

christy c wrote: »

Again, people arrive at their decisions differently as is their right. For me, voting for people who promise to implement stupid policies, and who sneer at a significant portion of the electorate who choose to vote FG or FF would not be my cup of tea.

But give me a party with sensible economic policies, and who are not too concerned with the latest fad and I'll bite their hand off.

To me the parties fall into two groups: Ones I don't exactly trust to implement their policies, and ones with policies that I think are outright bad..

efanton

blanch152 wrote: »

I have previously asked many of the posters who have raised this whether they have complained to the OGP or the EU Commission over the awarding of the contract, or whether they are aware of anyone else who has done so.

It is just not possible any more to award contracts such as those in a corrupt way in a place like Ireland - that is why we figure so high every year on the TI Index as a country free of corruption.

Absolute tinfoil hat stuff.

Not saying its happening now, but your argument is empty.

If someone was to provide privileged information to a prospective tenderer such as the lowest bid so far, details of existing tender bids, or details of how bids were adjudicated, then someone tendering could easily submit a tender that was very likely to succeed.
It would be extremely hard to prove that such information was secretly divulged.

smurgen

blanch152 wrote: »

I have previously asked many of the posters who have raised this whether they have complained to the OGP or the EU Commission over the awarding of the contract, or whether they are aware of anyone else who has done so.

It is just not possible any more to award contracts such as those in a corrupt way in a place like Ireland - that is why we figure so high every year on the TI Index as a country free of corruption.

Absolute tinfoil hat stuff.

We are not aligned with OECD corruption guidances and Ireland falls shorts over the dual criminality requirement with regards to foreign bribery.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/irish-corruption-law-not-in-compliance-with-oecd-guidelines-1.3997012

Mortelaro

smurgen wrote: »

We are not aligned with OECD corruption guidances and Ireland falls shorts over the dual criminality requirement with regards to foreign bribery.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/irish-corruption-law-not-in-compliance-with-oecd-guidelines-1.3997012

That's out of date
Read page 23 of their October 2019 report
They are not critical because Irish law includes a provision to prosecute the person involved abroad as opposed to the company

It's available here