Saracens Salarygate: Automatic Relegation?

sydthebeat

how far do you stretch the elastic?

one day ineligible.... 10 days ? a month?

awec

There needs to be a rule that all complaints about player eligibility etc must be lodged 48 hours after a match ends.

They might deserve it, but this will end up a total farce.

arsebiscuits1

Given Sarries propensity for an aversion to rules, I wonder was this one day they informed EPCR about a genuine error or the product of some shady dealings for the players salary

sydthebeat

awec wrote: »

There needs to be a rule that all complaints about player eligibility etc must be lodged 48 hours after a match ends.

They might deserve it, but this will end up a total farce.

There was no complaint.

Saracens notified EPCR themselves.

But I agree, there needs to a limitation of time on when these misconduct charges can be brought

Cookiemunster

stephen_n wrote: »

That seems to be a precedent and we know the Scots like to threaten to sue.

That precedent was set in an ERC competition that no longer exists. The EPCR are under no obligation to use a different organising bodies sanctions to set a precedent for their competition

pjdarcy

I really hope they're not kicked out of the competition purely because I'm really looking forward to the quarter final against Leinster.

aloooof

sydthebeat wrote: »

how far do you stretch the elastic?

one day ineligible.... 10 days ? a month?

It's a tricky one; I can see why they may be more lenient as it was only 1 day passed eligibility.

But, regardless of it being 1 day or 30 days, I don't see how they can argue that it didn't have a material impact on the game.

prawnsambo

Cookiemunster wrote: »

That precedent was set in an ERC competition that no longer exists. The EPCR are under no obligation to use a different organising bodies sanctions to set a precedent for their competition

It depends entirely on what's in their participation agreement. That's what Saracens have allegedly breached. It's quite possible, even likely, that it's a very close facsimile of the ERC participation agreement.

molloyjh

The 1 day thing just makes it more believable that it was an honest mistake. The admission combined with the belief that it was an honest mistake will allow them to reduce the punishment IMO. They didnt just admit guilt, they came forward with the information. They may never have been found out otherwise.

molloyjh

molloyjh wrote: »

The 1 day thing just makes it more believable that it was an honest mistake. The admission combined with the belief that it was an honest mistake will allow them to reduce the punishment IMO. They didnt just admit guilt, they came forward with the information. They may never have been found out otherwise.

Yeah I agree. The problem is though that Glasgow may have a credible action against the EPCR if they do nothing.

I'd rather see Sarries in the quarter, I want Leinster to end the debate as to which is the better team before Sarries fall into the hole awaiting them.

prawnsambo

molloyjh wrote: »

The 1 day thing just makes it more believable that it was an honest mistake. The admission combined with the belief that it was an honest mistake will allow them to reduce the punishment IMO. They didnt just admit guilt, they came forward with the information. They may never have been found out otherwise.

There could also be an issue with PRL. His work permit isn't just for EPCR competition, it's for his employment with the club. I wonder how long it was expired for? Potentially as much as two weeks.

Squidgy Black

molloyjh wrote: »

The 1 day thing just makes it more believable that it was an honest mistake. The admission combined with the belief that it was an honest mistake will allow them to reduce the punishment IMO. They didnt just admit guilt, they came forward with the information. They may never have been found out otherwise.

In fairness to Sarries, I don't think this one had any malice or cheating behind it, it's just a really, really dumb oversight on their behalf. It wasn't a case that he was an unregistered player or circumventing the eligibility rules, just some idiot forgot to apply for his work permit renewal.

prawnsambo

Squidgy Black wrote: »

In fairness to Sarries, I don't think this one had any malice or cheating behind it, it's just a really, really dumb oversight on their behalf. It wasn't a case that he was an unregistered player or circumventing the eligibility rules, just some idiot forgot to apply for his work permit renewal.

Or it could have been applied for but not received in time. The Home Office aren't renowned for getting stuff like this right at the moment.

durkadurka

prawnsambo wrote: »

There could also be an issue with PRL. His work permit isn't just for EPCR competition, it's for his employment with the club. I wonder how long it was expired for? Potentially as much as two weeks.

It looks like he played the following week against Harlequins

Another premiership points deduction!!!

Squidgy Black

prawnsambo wrote: »

Or it could have been applied for but not received in time. The Home Office aren't renowned for getting stuff like this right at the moment.

I doubt it because that'd indicate they knew his work permit was running out and they were aware of the date it expired but played him anyways

BonnieSituation

prawnsambo wrote: »

There could also be an issue with PRL. His work permit isn't just for EPCR competition, it's for his employment with the club. I wonder how long it was expired for? Potentially as much as two weeks.

Two weeks?

Do you mean it was expired for 2 weeks before they noticed the error? That's insane!

So the one day thing doesn't stand up to scrutiny in that case.

whatawaster

Sounds like they only owned up to it after a couple of weeks had passed and they knew any changes to the quarter finals would wreck too much havoc for the competition. They know they'll only get a fine.

prawnsambo

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Two weeks?

Do you mean it was expired for 2 weeks before they noticed the error? That's insane!

So the one day thing doesn't stand up to scrutiny in that case.

No, it's two weeks between when the permit expired and (possibly) them reporting it to EPCR. I'm allowing a few days for EPCR to set up a disciplinary hearing. That may have taken longer, but it's unlikely that it would have taken from January 20th (next working day after the match) to this week to do it. So the assumption is that they either sat on it for two weeks, or didn't identify the issue for two weeks.

thelad95

Is there a possibility of Glasgow taking the 8th seeding ahead of Saracens?

Given the season Sarries are having and the fine margin of the error (and the fact they came clean about it) I'm wondering will they go easy on them and slap a prospective points deduction for next season and a fine.

From a commercial perspective, a QF in Dublin between the last two European champions (and essentially Saracens last hurrah) is a lot more appealing than two Pro14 teams in a game that Leinster will easily grind out.

scott1974

thelad95 wrote: »

Is there a possibility of Glasgow taking the 8th seeding ahead of Saracens?

Given the season Sarries are having and the fine margin of the error (and the fact they came clean about it) I'm wondering will they go easy on them and slap a prospective points deduction for next season and a fine.

From a commercial perspective, a QF in Dublin between the last two European champions (and essentially Saracens last hurrah) is a lot more appealing than two Pro14 teams in a game that Leinster will easily grind out.

They can't be in the Champions Cup next season.

Riskymove

thelad95 wrote: »

Is there a possibility of Glasgow taking the 8th seeding ahead of Saracens?

Given the season Sarries are having and the fine margin of the error (and the fact they came clean about it) I'm wondering will they go easy on them and slap a prospective points deduction for next season and a fine.

From a commercial perspective, a QF in Dublin between the last two European champions (and essentially Saracens last hurrah) is a lot more appealing than two Pro14 teams in a game that Leinster will easily grind out.

yes Glasgow could take the place

Sarries won't be in Europe next season and given all the controversy it may well suit EPCR top not have sarries in the competition any further.

jacothelad

cantwbr1 wrote: »

Would the likely punishment for that be forfeiture of the match.
Could have a big impact on the q/final line ups

They could have points docked

jacothelad

sydthebeat wrote: »

why isnt there a "statue of limitations" type limit on these things?
the game was 19 days ago.
surely all paperwork needs to be submitted PRIOR to the game.

Lamositeles work permit expired the day before the game. He played 20 minutes of the game, in which sarries won by 3 points.

They had to remove it as pigeons kept sh1tting on it's head.:D:D:D:D:D

Kevski

It sounds like Racing won’t be letting it go anyway - https://www.racing92.fr/article/communique-de-presse-saracens-vs-racing-92/13253

Statement from their website - (translated)

Following an investigation, the EPCR has just issued a press release in which it announces the filing of a complaint for "misconduct" (offense) against the Saracens. This complaint concerns the match of the 6th day of Champions Cup on Sunday January 19 between the Saracens and Racing 92.

This offense would relate to the use of a Saracens player who entered the game when he was ineligible to participate in the match. This new possible infraction is likely to significantly upset the classification of the qualifying phases of the Champions Cup 2020.

An independent Disciplinary Commission has just been established by the EPCR and will meet to try this offense this evening Friday, February 7 at 6:00 p.m. local time in London.
Racing 92 is surprised not to have been contacted when it is concerned by a new failure by the Saracens club.

As a reminder, when such an offense takes place during a TOP14 match, the club concerned is assessed the “lost match” sanction, to which -2 points in the ranking and 0 mark points are added. As for the injured club, it “won match” with +5 points in the standings and 25 mark points.

While regretting not having been informed earlier of this infraction, Racing 92 is already taking all measures to enforce its rights and the fairness of sport in the competition.

VANG1

So they cheated again! They should be thrown out, rules are rules, Rugby is in the dock here and our ethics

Squidgy Black

Kevski wrote: »

It sounds like Racing won’t be letting it go anyway - https://www.racing92.fr/article/communique-de-presse-saracens-vs-racing-92/13253

Statement from their website - (translated)

Following an investigation, the EPCR has just issued a press release in which it announces the filing of a complaint for "misconduct" (offense) against the Saracens. This complaint concerns the match of the 6th day of Champions Cup on Sunday January 19 between the Saracens and Racing 92.

This offense would relate to the use of a Saracens player who entered the game when he was ineligible to participate in the match. This new possible infraction is likely to significantly upset the classification of the qualifying phases of the Champions Cup 2020.

An independent Disciplinary Commission has just been established by the EPCR and will meet to try this offense this evening Friday, February 7 at 6:00 p.m. local time in London.
Racing 92 is surprised not to have been contacted when it is concerned by a new failure by the Saracens club.

As a reminder, when such an offense takes place during a TOP14 match, the club concerned is assessed the “lost match” sanction, to which -2 points in the ranking and 0 mark points are added. As for the injured club, it “won match” with +5 points in the standings and 25 mark points.

While regretting not having been informed earlier of this infraction, Racing 92 is already taking all measures to enforce its rights and the fairness of sport in the competition.

Not surprised at all, it's the difference between Racing being away to Clermont or playing it at home if they're given a TBP win as compensation.

Shefwedfan

Kevski wrote: »

It sounds like Racing won’t be letting it go anyway - https://www.racing92.fr/article/communique-de-presse-saracens-vs-racing-92/13253

Statement from their website - (translated)

Following an investigation, the EPCR has just issued a press release in which it announces the filing of a complaint for "misconduct" (offense) against the Saracens. This complaint concerns the match of the 6th day of Champions Cup on Sunday January 19 between the Saracens and Racing 92.

This offense would relate to the use of a Saracens player who entered the game when he was ineligible to participate in the match. This new possible infraction is likely to significantly upset the classification of the qualifying phases of the Champions Cup 2020.

An independent Disciplinary Commission has just been established by the EPCR and will meet to try this offense this evening Friday, February 7 at 6:00 p.m. local time in London.
Racing 92 is surprised not to have been contacted when it is concerned by a new failure by the Saracens club.

As a reminder, when such an offense takes place during a TOP14 match, the club concerned is assessed the “lost match” sanction, to which -2 points in the ranking and 0 mark points are added. As for the injured club, it “won match” with +5 points in the standings and 25 mark points.

While regretting not having been informed earlier of this infraction, Racing 92 is already taking all measures to enforce its rights and the fairness of sport in the competition.

Good on Racing.....sick of listening to clubs saying that Saracens should be let off....

They are a shower of cheats....dump them out

Shefwedfan

Mind you I don’t think they will get anything bar a mini fine

prawnsambo

It's a pretty minor infraction in itself, but at the same time you can understand Racing's position. Not so long ago, Leinster had to send a couple of players home from SA because they didn't have visas. This stuff happens, but the problem for Saracens is that they have absolutely zero credibility at this stage. Even if it's just a cock-up, nobody will feel like giving them a pass.

BonnieSituation

Any hint of white smoke?