Saracens Salarygate: Automatic Relegation?

Squidgy Black

typhoony wrote: »

did they not say it had to be cut by £2 million, sure that's only Owen Farrell and a couple more heavy hitters

That's £2 million over the budget with Itoje and Farrell as their marquee salary cap exempt players. So cutting Farrell just means they shift another player into the exempt spot and lose out on any credits for having him in the international team etc.

shrapnel222

shrapnel222 wrote: »

not sure if this has been mentioned in the thread but what happens if Saracens win the Heineken cup. Would they automatically qualify for next year, regardless of relegation? this could secure a good few players staying on i'd have thought

went digging around and saw this:

As it stands, no. While the winners of the Champions Cup qualify for next season's tournament - and Saracens are still in contention - European organisers have confirmed to the BBC that only teams from the Premiership, Top 14 and Pro14 are eligible to play in European competitions. The only exceptions are the teams from emerging nations who play in the Challenge Cup.

BBDBB

Im surprised the sponsors haven't started to abandon ship yet

Winters

I spared a thought for Derek McGrath over the weekend as he opened the weekend paper and sipped on his morning coffee as he prepared for the busy day out in the Curragh.

He may have seen his name mentioned in connection with the Irish Times' St. Michael's College conveyor belt article but I suspect it was the other news that led to the wry grin appearing as he dissected the unraveling case of Saracens, admitted cheaters and liars. It may be a previous chapter in his life but he is still a rugby man with many contacts in the game at all levels.

I have no sympathy for Saracens. They have been doing this for nearly a decade. They were caught before and PRL negotiated internally, such is their way, and the salary cap changed, increased and added a second marquee player.

But still everyone wondering how Saracens would 'bend the rules' for the next season and the season after that. Leicester and Wasps would know what May and Daly are being offered when contract negotiations were being discussed with agents. Yet Saracens continued to recruit more players. In came Jack Singleton, Liam Williams, Skelton etc and they retained they highest earners. How? Everyone knew.

Kieran Marmion is probably breathing a sigh of relief.

I have to admit, one of the most pleasing aspects of this situation is that it's all internal to Premiership Rugby Limited. They have only themselves to blame. They cant blame the RFU, they cant blame World Rugby, they cant blame the ERC anymore hell they cant even blame the EU for this one. It was the other clubs that had had enough. They were fed up. Fed up being cheated, lied to, losing home grown players, trying to get the most of their own budgets. They turned to Saracens and said enough is enough.

Its like Brexit in a microcosm.

Remember, Saracens arent sustainable. They are loss making year after year. Whether its been Johann Rupert or Nigel Wray himself their debts have risen and been written off. The sustainable clubs cant compete fairly against that. This is bloodgate on a much bigger scale. Its a blood capsule each match, every match for the last 3 plus years and they still wont stop.

So where is Mark McCafferty in all of this. He must surely have some questions to answer. He sold TV rights that were not PRL's to sell. And where has that BT money gone? Wage inflation.

Rugby adviser to CVC Capital Partners that's where he is. Now he has his dirty hands in more pies.


Notes:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/premiership-chief-mark-mccafferty-resigns-to-join-leagues-shareholder-cvc-capital-partners-ktdkflh6t

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/st-michael-s-conveyor-belt-showing-no-signs-of-slowing-down-1.4143124

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-7905615/The-handling-Saracens-scandal-proves-governance-sport-utter-shambles.html

People talk about the Irish provinces not having a salary cap but Irish rugby does have other mechanisms that prevent this race to the bottom that Saracens pushed. The limit on NIQ players, the rule on players playing outside Ireland, internal budgets, IRFU prudent accounting and not being able to out bid other provinces financially.

Henry Ford III

IRFU have to approve every contract and signing. Their control is total.

Eod100

Moore spelling things out for the "they won it fair and square on the pitch" crowd.

https://twitter.com/brianmoore666/status/1219283847180845058?s=19

BonnieSituation

Eod100 wrote: »

Moore spelling things out for the "they won it fair and square on the pitch" crowd. https://twitter.com/brianmoore666/status/1219283847180845058?s=19

He's class is that Moore fella.

Eod100

This doesn't hold back at all. Well worth a read. https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2020/jan/20/saracens-way-nigel-wray-gold-relegation?__twitter_impression=true

sydthebeat

Eod100 wrote: »

This doesn't hold back at all. Well worth a read. https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2020/jan/20/saracens-way-nigel-wray-gold-relegation?__twitter_impression=true

i love this line

And to this day Saracens retain a small deranged core of press cheerleaders who regard their crimes as little more than a form-filling oversight,

Eod100

sydthebeat wrote: »

i love this line

Heh. Fair play to him. Shouldn't be afraid to call it as it is!

I saw this interesting take on PR this morning which is a response to "well what's the salary cap in Ireland???". I think the numbers look reasonable enough. I don't see how they are deflated to the point Munster would be anywhere close to the salary cap really.

I've just had a read of the rules and allowances for the salary cap and it's almost impressive that they've managed to come in so far over the £7million considering they are allowed:

To exclude 2 star players
Allowance of up to £600k for homegrown players
Allowance of up to £400k for injuries
Allowance of up to £80k per international player

I can't speak for any other clubs in the UK and Ireland but I'm going to have a look at Munster and grossly exaggerate what the salaries of our squad might be.

Our two excluded star players would be Murray and O'Mahony, supposedly on £683k and £427k respectively.
We would likely receive the full £600k allowance for homegrown players and I'd say most clubs are seeing the full £400k for injuries these days.

I've taken the piss a bit here, in case any of our Welsh friends might be tempted to suggest I've undercut what any of our players might be on. For example, I know for a fact that the salary for any of the recently emerging talents from the academy is close to €40k but I've allowed £80k per player just to be safe. Guys like Brian Scott and Ciaran Parker are also on nothing close to £80k per year and I reckon you could knock close to £50k each off the wages I've given most of the internationals.

I've also ignored the fact that a significant portion of money paid to our internationals is renumeration for their work in an Irish jersey. International match fees and bonuses are exempt for the purposes of the English salary cap but seeing as we don't know the breakdown for Irish players I've acted as though it's all their club pay.

Internationals:
£400k - Stander
£300k - Earls, Carberry
£250k - Conway, Beirne
£200k - Kilcoyne, Kleyn, Farrell
£150k - N.Scannell, J.Ryan, Holland, O'Donnell, R.Scannell, Haley

Project Players & Imports:
£120k - Marshall, Botha, Cloete, Bleyendaal

Squad Players:
£100k - Cronin, O'Byrne, Archer, O'Donoghue, McCarthy, Hanrahan, Goggin, Arnold, Sweetnam
£80k - Scott, Parker, O'Shea, Cronin, Wooton

Younger Talent:
£80k - Loughman, Wycherley, O'Connor, Coombes, Oliver, Casey, Daly, Nash

So that is roughly £5.4million spent on our squad (without the million or so spent on Murray and O'Mahony).

From that figure we'll subtract the homegrown and injury allowances (£1m)
Then of the 14 included internationals, we would likely have received the full £80k allowance for 10 of them (£800k)

That leaves us with £3.6million and almost half of the salary cap left to play with, even when ridiculously exaggerating what most of our squad could possibly be on and ignoring what portion of the internationals salary stems from playing for Ireland.

Obviously it's an exercise in educated guesswork but it helped me get my head around exactly how much money they must have been spending. There are clearly clubs with better squads than Munster but I can't imagine there are any who are spending anything close to what Sarries must have been.

Buer

That's a pretty solid attempt at estimating the figures although I'd disagree with his assertion that he's overdoing it for a number of players. That would be offset by what I'd view as completely underestimating the salaries of a few guys. Stephen Archer is a very experienced tighthead (a specialist position) with a couple of test caps and a decade of provincial rugby under his belt. He's on comfortably more than £100k as would be Hanrahan, in my mind.

I'd also suggest he's underestimating a couple of his imports. Botha is a capped Springbok who had a great year in the Premiership before coming here. He's not here for the weather. Cloete and Marshall, fair enough. Haley is capped at Saxons level and could well be on more.

But generally, I'd agree. I recall the last uplift in academy deals I read about (2-3 years ago now) advised that these guys were still on what amounts to less than the minimum wage i.e. under €20k per year. First senior deals are not big money whatsoever and there are a lot of guys in Irish rugby on those who are featuring regularly for provinces.

prawnsambo

Yeah. I know a couple of Leinster players who are on a similar number of caps and a fair bit younger than Archer are on around €250k. I would imagine that would be average for that level of player as they'd be easily able to command that kind of number anywhere in Europe. He's also left out the personal sponsorship deals those guys get that usually provides them with a €40k (ish) car as well. Although he was an exceptional player at the time, was being targeted by Munster and went straight in to the senior setup, it's worth bearing in mind that Luke Fitz was on €56k when he went on the books at Leinster. I've since heard that first senior contracts out of the academy are around €80k now.

Buer

Buer wrote: »

That's a pretty solid attempt at estimating the figures although I'd disagree with his assertion that he's overdoing it for a number of players. That would be offset by what I'd view as completely underestimating the salaries of a few guys. Stephen Archer is a very experienced tighthead (a specialist position) with a couple of test caps and a decade of provincial rugby under his belt. He's on comfortably more than £100k as would be Hanrahan, in my mind.

I'd also suggest he's underestimating a couple of his imports. Botha is a capped Springbok who had a great year in the Premiership before coming here. He's not here for the weather. Cloete and Marshall, fair enough. Haley is capped at Saxons level and could well be on more.

But generally, I'd agree. I recall the last uplift in academy deals I read about (2-3 years ago now) advised that these guys were still on what amounts to less than the minimum wage i.e. under €20k per year. First senior deals are not big money whatsoever and there are a lot of guys in Irish rugby on those who are featuring regularly for provinces.

Yes, so would Arno Botha. There's no way a capped Springbok is moving to Limerick for £120k per annum. But overall I think the point stands, Munster would be nowhere near £7m in salaries.

Edit - there's 3.4m headroom in the example above, and about 40 players listed. Which means you could up the hypothetical salary of every player above by £85k and still meet the cap.

Buer

prawnsambo wrote: »

Yeah. I know a couple of Leinster players who are on a similar number of caps and a fair bit younger than Archer are on around €250k. .

I'd be really surprised if there was a player who only has a cap or two and is on €250k. The guys in that bracket are Tracy, Bent, Ross Byrne, ROL and Adam Byrne.

The only one I could see potentially being on €200k there is Ross Byrne given his position and having become a fairly key player within Leinster. I assume he has signed a new contract since his first senior one which was in 2017.

awec

The list of 100k players seems wrong to me too. No way those guys are on that little.

The salaries look underestimated across the board to me, except for Stander who is probably roughly correct.

prawnsambo

Buer wrote: »

I'd be really surprised if there was a player who only has a cap or two and is on €250k. The guys in that bracket are Tracy, Bent, Ross Byrne, ROL and Adam Byrne.

The only one I could see potentially being on €200k there is Ross Byrne given his position and having become a fairly key player within Leinster. I assume he has signed a new contract since his first senior one which was in 2017.

Sorry, for some reason thought Archer was on around 12-15 caps. That's the kind of number I was thinking of anyway.

In this hypothetical scenario you'd have to remove would be payments for playing for Ireland from the totals of guys on central contracts

prawnsambo

AdamD wrote: »

In this hypothetical scenario you'd have to remove would be payments for playing for Ireland from the totals of guys on central contracts

In a direct comparison, you'd just give the credit that PRL give to the clubs for international appearances.

Buer

prawnsambo wrote: »

Sorry, for some reason thought Archer was on around 12-15 caps. That's the kind of number I was thinking of anyway.

Fair enough. That makes more sense and would be more in the bracket of Leavy, McGrath and Conan who would potentially all be in the Irish first choice 23 when fit.

prawnsambo

Buer wrote: »

Fair enough. That makes more sense and would be more in the bracket of Leavy, McGrath and Conan who would potentially all be in the Irish first choice 23 when fit.

JvdF and probably Ruddock would be on similar numbers I'd imagine.

awec

Our players will be paid less than their English equivalents, but ultimately it would have to be a number that is somewhat comparable.

No matter what the provinces or IRFU say, these lads aren't hanging around earning fractions of what they could be earning elsewhere. Careers are too short for that sort of thing, players don't have that long to set themselves up financially.

prawnsambo

prawnsambo wrote: »

In a direct comparison, you'd just give the credit that PRL give to the clubs for international appearances.

Doesnt correlate though. The English clubs arent paying those guys anything extra for playing for England, they're actually getting an 80k benefit. Whereas if Leinster have to take their central contracts onto their wage bill for this comparison they're getting hit with international appearance fees.

prawnsambo

AdamD wrote: »

Doesnt correlate though. The English clubs arent paying those guys anything extra for playing for England, they're actually getting an 80k benefit. Whereas if Leinster have to take their central contracts onto their wage bill for this comparison they're getting hit with international appearance fees.

Yeah. If I was making the comparison, I'd take their estimated salary (paid by the IRFU) into the picture and then subtract the notional £80k allowance. That would be a fair comparison. Irish players who get capped for Ireland, but not on a central contract also get a per match payment. It used to be about €10k, but I'm sure it's gone up since then. English players get £25k plus win bonuses. But neither should be considered when calculating cap salaries.

Former Former

You could take a very crude look at it and say the IRFU spent 40.5 million euro on players and coaches last year.

Take a couple of million out for the national coaching set up, divide the remainder by four and you'd have the average cost per province for the players.

Then if you assume that the costs aren't spread evenly across all four, and obviously Leinster would have the highest, it wouldn't be a stretch to say that Leinster would be well over the Premiership salary cap.

All very rough obviously, but there's no way the average provincial player is earning significantly less than the average premiership player.

So when you see posts on here along the lines of "<Mid-Range Player X> should go to England for a big payday", it's probably unlikely that he'd get one.

prawnsambo

Former Former wrote: »

You could take a very crude look at it and say the IRFU spent 40.5 million euro on players and coaches last year.

Take a couple of million out for the national coaching set up, divide the remainder by four and you'd have the average cost per province for the players.

Then if you assume that the costs aren't spread evenly across all four, and obviously Leinster would have the highest, it wouldn't be a stretch to say that Leinster would be well over the Premiership salary cap.

That figure is described as "Professional game costs". Which means that (as well as national coaching team costs - Head coach, four assistants, video analysts, medical staff, S&C staff etc.) it also includes cost of attendances at tournaments including travel, accommodation, technical services etc. Which would be a lot more than a couple of million.

awec

Former Former wrote: »

You could take a very crude look at it and say the IRFU spent 40.5 million euro on players and coaches last year.

Take a couple of million out for the national coaching set up, divide the remainder by four and you'd have the average cost per province for the players.

Then if you assume that the costs aren't spread evenly across all four, and obviously Leinster would have the highest, it wouldn't be a stretch to say that Leinster would be well over the Premiership salary cap.

All very rough obviously, but there's no way the average provincial player is earning significantly less than the average premiership player.

So when you see posts on here along the lines of "<Mid-Range Player X> should go to England for a big payday", it's probably unlikely that he'd get one.

Also need to factor in the payments made to players from places other than the IRFU, for example Sexton's private money contract top up.

molloyjh

Looking at Leinster I reckon you're talking around €10m total. In GBP that's around £8.5m. Deduct marque and international allowances (which is likely around another £2m - Sexton & Furlong the marque guys plus another dozen or so internationals) and you're at around £6.5m. Quick and crude, but probably not a million miles off.

RobbieRuns

Not so much as go to England for a big pay day, for me it is players at the end of their cycle (just past their best) who can go to England for a pay day. Not a huge pay day, but better than they would get here. Players like Tomas O'Leary to London Irish, Donnacha O'C to Worcester, Stringer to Sarries/Bath/worcester

Former Former

prawnsambo wrote: »

That figure is described as "Professional game costs". Which means that (as well as national coaching team costs - Head coach, four assistants, video analysts, medical staff, S&C staff etc.) it also includes cost of attendances at tournaments including travel, accommodation, technical services etc. Which would be a lot more than a couple of million.

Nope. There are separate costs called out for "National tours, camps and squads" (1.4 million) and "National match costs" (3.6 million).

Player and management costs are 40.5 million. A few million here and there doesn't change the overall picture that the Irish lads aren't massively underpaid.