Saracens Salarygate: Automatic Relegation?

molloyjh

jr86 wrote: »

From today's Guardian https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/jan/19/billy-vunipola-eddie-jones-six-nations

"The Rugby Football Union has clarified that Jones can pick players playing for Championship clubs but, as yet, there is no definitive word on whether any England players joining clubs abroad would still be eligible for the national team under the “exceptional circumstances” clause. It is also unclear how many of Saracens’ sizeable international contingent will choose to remain with Saracens and play second-tier rugby, presumably with a pay cut. McCall has confirmed there are no relegation clauses in his players’ contracts".

This is what happens when agents are removed from the process. Independent oversight of the whole thing is gone. I've no idea why player would agree to that (obviously monetary reasons) but it really is all coming home to roost now.

crisco10

molloyjh wrote: »

This is what happens when agents are removed from the process. Independent oversight of the whole thing is gone. I've no idea why player would agree to that (obviously monetary reasons) but it really is all coming home to roost now.

Well, looking at it without 20/20 hindsight, the risk of Saracens getting relegated in the contract period was very low when these guys were signing. But what was definitely going to happen was they were going to be well paid to compete at the top of all competitions.

TBH, i could imagine taking that risk if offered it 12 months ago.

stephen_n

molloyjh wrote: »

This is what happens when agents are removed from the process. Independent oversight of the whole thing is gone. I've no idea why player would agree to that (obviously monetary reasons) but it really is all coming home to roost now.

I would imagine a lot of the players assumed it wasn’t even a remote possibility, within the short term nature of their deals.

Can’t see many of the players hanging around for two years in the championship on reduced wages. That might be expecting a little too much loyalty to the club.

molloyjh

Ah yeah, the chances of it happening would have been tiny, but a decent agent would have demanded the clause regardless. And argued there was no harm in having it there given the probability of it.

It's highly unlikely I'm going to be hospitalised in 2020 (I haven't been hospitalised for anything since I was 2), but I still pay health insurance to cover the possibility.

BonnieSituation

molloyjh wrote: »

Ah yeah, the chances of it happening would have been tiny, but a decent agent would have demanded the clause regardless. And argued there was no harm in having it there given the probability of it.

It's highly unlikely I'm going to be hospitalised in 2020 (I haven't been hospitalised for anything since I was 2), but I still pay health insurance to cover the possibility.

Absolutely. It's shocking that it wasn't there.

I can imagine say, Leicester City players after winning a league didn't think they would be initially in a relegation mire after winning the league but I bet they were glad of the clauses therein! (I suppose it helps they were práisce the year previously and beyond)

stephen_n

Not entirely sure how the contracts would work, but surely if the terms have to be completely renegotiated. The players can just refuse to take the pay cut and force the release.

stephen_n

stephen_n wrote: »

Not entirely sure how the contracts would work, but surely if the terms have to be completely renegotiated. The players can just refuse to take the pay cut and force the release.

Unless Sarries built in a relegation wage cut mechanism!!

molloyjh

stephen_n wrote: »

Not entirely sure how the contracts would work, but surely if the terms have to be completely renegotiated. The players can just refuse to take the pay cut and force the release.

You'd imagine that would require pay offs though too. Could Saracens afford that? And if so would they be better to do it this season so it doesnt affect their salary cap position next season? It's all a bit of a mess really and the costs could easily see the Wray family walk away or at least reduce their support. Apparently Wray himself was looking to sell a portion of his share in the club last year. After the investigation had kicked off AFAIK.....

stephen_n

Deleted User wrote: »

Unless Sarries built in a relegation wage cut mechanism!!

Well now if that’s there and no get out clause, then the players were definitely naive.

stephen_n

stephen_n wrote: »

Well now if that’s there and no get out clause, then the players were definitely naive.

Indeed but would not put it past professional contract creators

Quin_Dub

Squidgy Black wrote: »

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-7903083/Sabbaticals-overseas-friendlies-innovative-proposals-Saracens-plan-stars.html

Interesting stuff in there, talk of tournaments against South African super rugby sides, sabbaticals, and loan deals to IRFU provinces

That's all well and good , but they still have to convince all of them to take hefty pay cuts at some point in the future.

If the reports are accurate that they were 2M over the 7M cap , then that means a reduction of almost 30% in wages is required.

There is simply no way they can keep the squad they have and cut salaries to get back under the cap..No amount of Loyalty to a club is going to make a player take that kind of hit given the very short playing careers that most have.

All the potential dancing around over the next year (or two) in the Championship won't change that reality.

randomrb

Quin_Dub wrote: »

That's all well and good , but they still have to convince all of them to take hefty pay cuts at some point in the future.

If the reports are accurate that they were 2M over the 7M cap , then that means a reduction of almost 30% in wages is required.

There is simply no way they can keep the squad they have and cut salaries to get back under the cap..No amount of Loyalty to a club is going to make a player take that kind of hit given the very short playing careers that most have.

All the potential dancing around over the next year (or two) in the Championship won't change that reality.

I think they could persuade their biggest stars to stay if they played it right;

Take players like Itoje, Vunipola and Farrell. Nailed on English starters when fit getting their English match fees of 25k a game plus whatever image rights deals they get from being high profile.

If aracens says to them, take a small paycut and play in the championship for a year as a kind off mini break after the worldcup, they play a few matches to keep fit and to build up to English games but the rest of the time they can basically do what they want. Could extent their career by a year or two and have them in the right space for the lions coming up.

Not saying they will do that but its an idea

Quin_Dub

randomrb wrote: »

I think they could persuade their biggest stars to stay if they played it right;

Take players like Itoje, Vunipola and Farrell. Nailed on English starters when fit getting their English match fees of 25k a game plus whatever image rights deals they get from being high profile.

If aracens says to them, take a small paycut and play in the championship for a year as a kind off mini break after the worldcup, they play a few matches to keep fit and to build up to English games but the rest of the time they can basically do what they want. Could extent their career by a year or two and have them in the right space for the lions coming up.

Not saying they will do that but its an idea

But it can't be a small paycut , they need to find 30%.

So , yes , they might be able to keep an Itoje or a Farrell , but they'll have to lose a Skelton or a Vincent Koch etc. to pay for it.

The point is, that Saracens squad is done at the end of this season - How they decide to manage the cost reduction is up to them.

They either lose several high profile players or they lose a bigger bunch of "squad players" , probably a mixture of both to be honest.

I'd be amazed if any of the top players play championship next season. I'm also amazed at the absence of relegation clauses.

The reality is that going down with the club is a risk a lot of these guys don't need to take and as soon as a few names get linked with other clubs any notion of loyalty will give way to pragmatism and I'd imagine there will be an exodus.

I still can't believe it's all going down like this.

RobbieRuns

I think that some of the big name players will stay and play in the Championship. Some, not all. Owen Farrell will stay is my guess.

RobbieRuns

RobbieRuns wrote: »

I think that some of the big name players will stay and play in the Championship. Some, not all. Owen Farrell will stay is my guess.

Every voice of sense and reason around him will be telling him the opposite. I expect those voices will eventually win out.

jr86

Farrell is recently married and has a child not even a year old yet. really cannot see him uprooting to a country like France. Can anyone in the premiership afford him though?

I think he'll remain tbh, but I could see some sort of sabbatical element thrown in. That said if gatland insists on it, a loan deal could be facilitated perhaps. He's the likely Lions captain i'd imagine, so Gatland will be given a say

jr86

jr86 wrote: »

Farrell is recently married and has a child not even a year old yet. really cannot see him uprooting to a country like France. Can anyone in the premiership afford him though?

I think he'll remain tbh, but I could see some sort of sabbatical element thrown in. That said if gatland insists on it, a loan deal could be facilitated perhaps. He's the likely Lions captain i'd imagine, so Gatland will be given a say

Off to Munster with him

Former Former

jr86 wrote: »

Farrell is recently married and has a child not even a year old yet. really cannot see him uprooting to a country like France. Can anyone in the premiership afford him though?

Short answer: yes.

If a player like Farrell becomes available, you'd find the cash somewhere.

jr86

Former Former wrote: »

Short answer: yes.

If a player like Farrell becomes available, you'd find the cash somewhere.

London Irish would make a lot of sense if it could be facilitated.

Doesn't have to move across the country and Myler is in the twilight of his career anyway. I think its clear at this stage Jackson is never regaining his old form.

That said I'd imagine Champions Cup Rugby would be preferred on the part of EJ and Gatland

shrapnel222

not sure if this has been mentioned in the thread but what happens if Saracens win the Heineken cup. Would they automatically qualify for next year, regardless of relegation? this could secure a good few players staying on i'd have thought

Riskymove

shrapnel222 wrote: »

Would they automatically qualify for next year, regardless of relegation?

As I understand it, yes, as the 20th team

Former Former

shrapnel222 wrote: »

not sure if this has been mentioned in the thread but what happens if Saracens win the Heineken cup. Would they automatically qualify for next year, regardless of relegation? this could secure a good few players staying on i'd have thought

Think EPCR have confirmed that they are not eligible for next year if they win.

BonnieSituation

shrapnel222 wrote: »

not sure if this has been mentioned in the thread but what happens if Saracens win the Heineken cup. Would they automatically qualify for next year, regardless of relegation? this could secure a good few players staying on i'd have thought

They wouldn't be eligible as only teams from PRO14, TOP14 and Premiership can enter the Champions Cup.

Riskymove

BonnieSituation wrote: »

They wouldn't be eligible as only teams from PRO14, TOP14 and Premiership can enter the Champions Cup.

it seems that is being said alright and makes sense, however, it is not mentioned in the qualification rules published by the EPCR

randomrb

Quin_Dub wrote: »

But it can't be a small paycut , they need to find 30%.

So , yes , they might be able to keep an Itoje or a Farrell , but they'll have to lose a Skelton or a Vincent Koch etc. to pay for it.

The point is, that Saracens squad is done at the end of this season - How they decide to manage the cost reduction is up to them.

They either lose several high profile players or they lose a bigger bunch of "squad players" , probably a mixture of both to be honest.

The problem is that it is not clear exactly how they have broken the salary cap. There has been a lot of talk around the co-investments and things like that, they thought that didn't count as the salary so if they wound up them over the next year and offloaded a few non-english high profile players like Liam Williams that might be enough.

The simple thing is outside of Saracens its clear that no one knows exactly how they have breached the cup and by how much

typhoony

I'd say there's a few other clubs carefully going through their books at the moment, Bristol have invested heavily the last few years I wonder if they are worried

typhoony

randomrb wrote: »

The problem is that it is not clear exactly how they have broken the salary cap. There has been a lot of talk around the co-investments and things like that, they thought that didn't count as the salary so if they wound up them over the next year and offloaded a few non-english high profile players like Liam Williams that might be enough.

The simple thing is outside of Saracens its clear that no one knows exactly how they have breached the cup and by how much

did they not say it had to be cut by £2 million, sure that's only Owen Farrell and a couple more heavy hitters

Riskymove

typhoony wrote: »

did they not say it had to be cut by £2 million, sure that's only Owen Farrell and a couple more heavy hitters

Sarries took the further penalty and relegation rather than open the books

I think it is clear that they wont be back in the Premiership until they do so and show they are compliant.

randomrb

typhoony wrote: »

I'd say there's a few other clubs carefully going through their books at the moment, Bristol have invested heavily the last few years I wonder if they are worried

They are spending a lot of money on a few players, Piatau is a Marque player so doesn't count towards the cap.

They also don't have anything near the depth, saracens count effectively field two teams of international standard players when all fit