Saracens Salarygate: Automatic Relegation?

prawnsambo

lawrencesummers wrote: »

A level of backtracking That Fine Gael would be proud of, but everyone can see through.
I notice you never suggested Connacht as potential suitors, a side Having plenty of OH issues also, because you couldn’t resist the cheap dig.

You think (no offence to Connacht) that Owen Farrell would move there? And that they could afford him? Those chips on your shoulder are blocking your vision at this stage.

lawrencesummers

prawnsambo wrote: »

You think (no offence to Connacht) that Owen Farrell would move there? And that they could afford him? Those chips on your shoulder are blocking your vision at this stage.

Your missing the point. But that’s no surprise.

sullivlo

lawrencesummers wrote: »

A level of backtracking That Fine Gael would be proud of, but everyone can see through.
I notice you never suggested Connacht as potential suitors, a side Having plenty of OH issues also, because you couldn’t resist the cheap dig.

Your level of butthurt is high.

Please point out where I backtracked, or what in my post was factually incorrect.

Yes - I could have considered Connacht as an option. However, and no disrespect to Connacht, they were never powerhouses of European rugby. Munster were. I remember being in Thomond in the early 2010’s for European games and I wish Munster could regain some of that former glory (shock horror, I went to Thomond to support Munster - that really doesn’t fit your narrative, does it?).

Having competitive provinces does wonders for the national team. Farrell would be a good signing for Munster as he has a solid boot and can be an effective 12. Chris Farrell is good and all, but Owen is better.

prawnsambo

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Your missing the point. But that’s no surprise.

It's a point you made, so you're now moving the goalposts.

Boscoirl

I doubt the 2 year rule will apply to Sarries, they have been punished already for this year, as long as they get it in line for next season they’ll be allowed up if they win

Buer

Munster already have a big money inside centre coming next season.

If they were going to look to scavenge the remains of Saracens, they could do a lot worse than Vincent Koch. He's a Springbok so Munster will hold a certain level of interest given their coach and a number of their players. They need a top level tighthead which has been missing for some time. He's a bloody good player, at his peak and would be a very capable option to work alongside Knox for a couple of seasons. Apparently Matt Gallagher is already on the way.

Leinster could do worse than look at Lozowski as a utility player to slot in around the team with test players absent, Tomane potentially leaving and RK potentially gone also.

prawnsambo

Boscoirl wrote: »

I doubt the 2 year rule will apply to Sarries, they have been punished already for this year, as long as they get it in line for next season they’ll be allowed up if they win

I'd be very surprised. There have been some clubs denied relegation to the Premiership on the basis of those rules.

Buer

Boscoirl wrote: »

I doubt the 2 year rule will apply to Sarries, they have been punished already for this year, as long as they get it in line for next season they’ll be allowed up if they win

Unless there's something in writing, I wouldn't be so sure. Any team that was being relegated would take immediate legal action if they were going to take the drop and be replaced by Saracens.

And we've already seen that the other clubs in the league would absolutely support whoever that team would be. The resentment towards Saracens is intense from their rivals.

Bazzo

Boscoirl wrote: »

I doubt the 2 year rule will apply to Sarries, they have been punished already for this year, as long as they get it in line for next season they’ll be allowed up if they win

The other clubs would have to agree and they haven't seemed very sympathetic so far.

lawrencesummers

sullivlo wrote: »

Your level of butthurt is high.

Please point out where I backtracked, or what in my post was factually incorrect.

Yes - I could have considered Connacht as an option. However, and no disrespect to Connacht, they were never powerhouses of European rugby. Munster were. I remember being in Thomond in the early 2010’s for European games and I wish Munster could regain some of that former glory (shock horror, I went to Thomond to support Munster - that really doesn’t fit your narrative, does it?).

Having competitive provinces does wonders for the national team. Farrell would be a good signing for Munster as he has a solid boot and can be an effective 12. Chris Farrell is good and all, but Owen is better.

Look you took the opportunity for a cheap dig, got pulled on it as supposedly mods are meant to be above such things and now your trying to wrangle your way out of it with some bull makey uppy inscenserity. I could muster some level of respect if you had the courage of your convictions but you don’t.

prawnsambo

Bazzo wrote: »

The other clubs would have to agree and they haven't seemed very sympathetic so far.

And that would include the Championship clubs who would have expectations of making a run for promotion without the literal elephant in the room routing them all at will.

Dial Hard

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Look you took the opportunity for a cheap dig, got pulled on it as supposedly mods are meant to be above such things and now your trying to wrangle your way out of it with some bull makey uppy inscenserity. I could muster some level of respect if you had the courage of your convictions but you don’t.

They don't mod this forum, as has already been pointed out. They're as Joe Soap as you or I when posting here.

lawrencesummers

Dial Hard wrote: »

They don't mod this forum, as has already been pointed out. They're as Joe Soap as you or I when posting here.

Trolling is trolling.

awec

Everyone give it a rest please, back to rugby matters

Eod100

Think the photo editor was having fun with the photo they picked..

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2020/jan/19/saracens-punishment-racing-92-supporters-european-champions?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium=&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1579469362

Former Former

One question I haven't seen really discussed.

Saracens are dirty cheats who bought their way to titles they didn't deserve. Fair enough.

What does this do to Mark McCall's reputation?

Buer

Former Former wrote: »

What does this do to Mark McCall's reputation?

It definitely damages it. I don't get the impression he ever had a huge amount of involvement outside the training pitch though and he certainly instilled a fantastic work ethic and was heavily involved in developing guys like Kruis, Itoje, Farrell etc.

But he goes from one of the most rated coaches in Europe to a guy with a significant question mark over his head. I don't think he'll be leaving Saracens any time soon anyway. He doesn't care about limelight and barely appears in an interview so I'd imagine he'll be quite happy to run things in a lower division. Guys like Kelly Brown might not be quite so eager to stay as they look to establish their coaching careers.

cantwbr1

Former Former wrote: »

What does this do to Mark McCall's reputation?

I think that you have to separate that question into two parts, coaching and morality.

From a coaching perspective he suffers no reputation damage. His achievements are unchanged. He has coached a group of tops end players into one of the best teams in Europe. How or what the players were paid does not impact that.

From a moral perspective it all depends on how much he knew or was involved in breaking the salary cap, which we will probably never know.

crisco10

I think long term McCall will be alright. I think how Dean Richards has recovered from Bloodgate demonstrates how time can heal a lot of wounds!

awec

Ah I don’t think McCall will have too much trouble at all.

stephen_n

I doubt it will damage him much at all. He wasn’t involved in these deals. He coached a group of players that were illegally assembled. Nothing really changes for him, his reputation is based on getting the best out of those players, not how they ended up at the club.

Former Former

Buer wrote: »

It definitely damages it. I don't get the impression he ever had a huge amount of involvement outside the training pitch though and he certainly instilled a fantastic work ethic and was heavily involved in developing guys like Kruis, Itoje, Farrell etc.

But he goes from one of the most rated coaches in Europe to a guy with a significant question mark over his head. I don't think he'll be leaving Saracens any time soon anyway. He doesn't care about limelight and barely appears in an interview so I'd imagine he'll be quite happy to run things in a lower division. Guys like Kelly Brown might not be quite so eager to stay as they look to establish their coaching careers.

Yeah, I'm not suggesting he was involved in any dodgy dealings of course.

But there was always a suggestion earlier in McCall's reign that Venter was the one calling the shots, even when McCall was nominally head coach. After Venter left, Sarries got even better, but now you have to ask the question, if he hadn't had such a deep and strong squad, would McCall have achieved what he did?

On the other hand, we've seen plenty of teams spend big, recruit like mad and end up with nothing to show for it so there's definitely some element of good coaching in there.

Truth is somewhere in the middle maybe.

evil_seed

crisco10 wrote: »

I think long term McCall will be alright. I think how Dean Richards has recovered from Bloodgate demonstrates how time can heal a lot of wounds!

There was no wound :pac:

Squidgy Black

A collection of the best moments of the past 24 hours

ClanofLams

Ridiculous that Sunday Times tolerate this. If it was a sportsperson making such posts they would run a two page spread on it.

Bazzo

Is that Lawrence Dallaglio he's @'ed in bottom left?

Riskymove

Former Former wrote: »

, if he hadn't had such a deep and strong squad, would McCall have achieved what he did?

in fairness you could apply the same to any new coach who arrives to an existing successful team which continues to be successful

Not that there are that many around the place. One for example, is Leo Cullen, who despite the success, one still hears things been raised like "how could you fail with the strong squad" or worse.."it's really Lancaster" etc.

Squidgy Black

Bazzo wrote: »

Is that Lawrence Dallaglio he's @'ed in bottom left?

Yeah he was tweeted at in the one Jones was replying, he's recently after going at David Flatman too in the last hour

molloyjh

ClanofLams wrote: »

Ridiculous that Sunday Times tolerate this. If it was a sportsperson making such posts they would run a two page spread on it.

This is what I cant understand. Hes regularly a nasty, spiteful and abusive character on social media. Surely at some point his employers need to tell him he needs to reign it in? Hes not worth the time or the energy really though. And at this stage hes become a parody of himself.

jr86

From today's Guardian https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/jan/19/billy-vunipola-eddie-jones-six-nations

"The Rugby Football Union has clarified that Jones can pick players playing for Championship clubs but, as yet, there is no definitive word on whether any England players joining clubs abroad would still be eligible for the national team under the “exceptional circumstances” clause. It is also unclear how many of Saracens’ sizeable international contingent will choose to remain with Saracens and play second-tier rugby, presumably with a pay cut. McCall has confirmed there are no relegation clauses in his players’ contracts".