The case of the racist blackcurrant drink

shutup

@stateofyou

The ****in state of you!

Melanchthon

KilOit wrote: »

Few years it happened in Dublin. Some triad gangs with swords. Back then you could call a spade a spade and garda put a stop to it without being labeled racists

What happened with that, always thought it was a triad feud that burnt itself out so they could get back to business or did the Garda actually sort it out?

sabat

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

...
I'm serious when I say this is genuinely frightening. The day could come when just disagreeing with someone online or making a joke could result in the cops calling around to your door like has happened in Britain.

https://twitter.com/EbunJoseph1/status/1213464247314743296

It is worrying-this guy has basically instigated a public witch hunt against 6 random people named David Cooney who happen to use LinkedIn, where their employers and work contacts can be reached:
https://mobile.twitter.com/HyperbolicDub/status/1213474584747544576
This is a reactionary mob if I ever saw one. On what authority does that guy get the right to attempt to publicly ruin some stranger's life?

B.A._Baracus

It's said everyone views the world in their own little bubble. I do. Who ever reading this does. Everyone else too.

Some people have a realistic view. Some don't.
This woman does not. Yes there is racism is this world. Yes that shouldn't happen. But the second you go out of your way looking for things to justify your unrealistic views you are so far up your own ass.

Recieving blackcurrant and thinking it's racism shows she has a complex.

Sagats_knee

sabat wrote: »

It is worrying-this guy has basically instigated a public witch hunt against 6 random people named David Cooney who happen to use LinkedIn, where their employers and work contacts can be reached:
https://mobile.twitter.com/HyperbolicDub/status/1213474584747544576
This is a reactionary mob if I ever saw one. On what authority does that guy get the right to attempt to publicly ruin some stranger's life?

These ‘woke’ types on twitter who love to accuse and shame others are the same types who would have been reporting people who didn’t agree with them to the stasi, Spanish inquisition or the like throughout history.

They go around accusing others and stirring up division and hatred, while portraying a smug holier than thou attitude to the world like they’ve never done wrong themselves. Resorting to the wildest accusations when they don’t get their way. Stateofyou is case in point.

All they are is bullies trying to get their power trip in the Internet. Hypocritics.

Christ was right when He said ‘ let he who is without sin cast the first stone’. A lesson people have sadly forgotten.

Mulberrytree

I don't like Dr. Joseph for a number of reasons, the main one being that everything is reduced to colour with her.

I'll qualify this by stating that I too am a black woman living and working here.

That said, the amount of filthy racist or racially loaded venom directed at her on Twitter, and even here, where some have made apologies for it is depressing.

Her course in the uni, I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole and I've read some of her published work which is shaking-the-head stuff.
She's made a nice little career for herself but there are better positioned and much more socially nuanced people I know who could direct that course without her incendiary and inflammatory language

Now, this drink thing, I totally get her. Unless you've ever been on the receiving end of insidious racism, it's easy to dismiss her gripe as the usual me-victim lamentation. She could have handled this by going to management without the publicity though

Not all racism is reportable. It's like bullying. Sometimes it's not overt. Actually a LOT of the time, it's subtle, and the end result is some level of paranoia with all negative social situations. Is it because that person is a jerk? I'd it because they don't like me? Are they a jerk that doesn't like me because I'm black? Filters that would be easier if the colour question wasn't always included.

Sitting on a bus and people not sitting next to you, yes, this is a real thing many people of colour could expand on. Having your cash notes checked constantly and overtly even when the previous customers didn't, foolish questions that assume you either lived in direct provision or are on welfare (no to both, very much a professional) assumptions you like bananas or chicken (don't eat either), conversations in a communal setting that deliberately exclude (assumptions that you'd know nothing about Irish history, for example, or, simply ignoring you whenever you speak) or include based on stereotypes (that you like rap, or jazz), assumptions you must know so and do, just because you're both black never mind there from a completely different country, assumptions you can't read English - or that poor spoken English is indicative of low intelligence (a co worker remarked about someone who had a PhD written in French and was shocked they had this level of education because their English wasn't so great) I have a lot more, but choosing the most difficult to talk about to people who've never ever experienced these things on a constant, repeated basis, year after year, that only occurs because of assumably, your colour.

Written down these may seem harmless. They may even be stereotyping rather than racially charged events, but even so, if you're constant getting stereotyped because of your colour or origins, well, doesn't that make it a racial thing? (I've left out the overt things like people spitting in your direction, or deliberately blowing smoke in your direction, houting -go back to your country or the N word, all of which have happened with complete strangers as I've been going about my business)

Generally because such incidents are not physically or verbally violent, they can't really be tackled, but they do wear one down.
They're demoralising and it becomes obvious that colour difference is the reason they happen.

So, something as innocuous or accidental as a swapped drink all of a sudden become another in a long list of small incidents that grate

It doesn't mean Irish society is racist. My husband is Irish, I have Irish friends, I work with Irish people. There are racists that live here though. And they should be called out for the bullies they are, who dislike people based on nothing more than their not looking like them. It only takes one incident after all for the victim to get traumatised. Because that's what bullying does. It's hurtful and awful.
(I'll anticipate replies by also saying that people of colour can be incredibly racist as well - some of the most distressing incidents I've personally experienced have been from people from the Asian continent actually, but given this topic is Dr. Joseph and Irish society, my 2 c is specific to experiences with Irish people).

B.A._Baracus

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

It's said everyone views the world in their own little bubble. I do. Who ever reading this does. Everyone else too.

You have just described the only reason I read and post on boards

Im actually paranoid about the echo chamber in my own head. I read boards for one reason only. It gives me access to other ways of seeing things.

And if you ever see me reply to someone on boards it is not because I want to debate them or beat them or "win".

It is because I am interested in their way of seeing things and I wana see if it hold up to scrutiny

B.A._Baracus

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

A very good mentality. It also means you ain't up your own ass.
The problem is that most people will not share your mentality in this world.

That is both the problem _and_ the good mentality then

If they shared my mentality then my purpose would be pointless.

Which is hard to say 5 times quickly if you try it.

Mulberrytree

Mulberrytree wrote: »

Generally because such incidents are not physically or verbally violent, they can't really be tackled, but they do wear one down.
They're demoralising and it becomes obvious that colour difference is the reason they happen.

I've been living in China for over a decade. All of the things you mentioned, I receive on one level or another on a daily basis. The spitting after you walk by, the stares, the empty space around you on the bus, etc etc etc.

Fact is, though, is that I wanted to live in China. I knew that I would be an extreme minority in the city I live. 9 Million people, with roughly 5k foreigners, and the majority of those foreigners being African, or Middle Eastern. White people are a definite minority compared to other races here, and it shows every time you associate with other foreigners.

Point is though, that I wanted to live here. I accept the attitudes of the people who are uncomfortable with a foreigner because historically there wasn't much contact with other foreigners (sound familiar?), or that China is a nation which consists mostly with Chinese people (another familiarity).

You can choose to find offense in the behavior of others, or you can ignore it. For the most part, I don't even notice the common behavior anymore. It's the aggressive attitudes of spitting on my shoes, the genuinely racist comments you receive, or the violence that occurs. However, these incidents are generally extremely rare. Just as they would be in Ireland for a person of color. I've lived in three Asian countries, and traveled to Africa... this sh1t happens.

It all only becomes wearing if you have no concept of the place you're in, and totally intolerant of others.

Racism is an individual thing until some people promote it as an institutionalized or national thing. Ireland, and Irish people can be understandably uncomfortable with other races. I met my first black person when I was 14..... Even now, with extensive exposure to genuinely Black cultures, and people, I'm still uncomfortable with them. That is racism but honestly, I don't take any issue with it.

Why? Because not every fcuking thing is offensive.

There are racists that live here though.

I am racist though. Everyone is to one degree or another. The point is whether you take your racism and express it to other people. Do your racist tendencies encourage acts of discrimination, on your part or on the part of others...? If not, then big deal.

I don't like US black culture. Don't like it, and can't be bothered interacting with it. Generally, I find Black Americans offensive, aggressive, and rather racist towards white people. I find it contemptible that Black people often call each other the N word, but scream racism whenever someone else does. Saying and thinking all of that is racist.

I've noticed that the people who go on about racism, tend to be rather racist themselves. The fact is that none of us are perfect, and people who harp on about racism are often expecting other people to become perfect (without needing to do so themselves).

And they should be called out for the bullies they are, who dislike people based on nothing more than their not looking like them. It only takes one incident after all for the victim to get traumatised. Because that's what bullying does. It's hurtful and awful.

Acting on racism with intent is awful and should be stepped on. By anyone.

However, we should be encouraging a society that has some patience for people who are uncomfortable with those of other races, and need time to adjust. Not everyone has personal experience with them, and an automatic acceptance is unrealistic.

(I'll anticipate replies by also saying that people of colour can be incredibly racist as well - some of the most distressing incidents I've personally experienced have been from people from the Asian continent actually, but given this topic is Dr. Joseph and Irish society, my 2 c is specific to experiences with Irish people).

Personally, I find Black people to be the most racist. There's a victim card that's thrown around quite often. Dunno if it's due to American Black rights orgs, but many black people behave racist with the belief that reverse racism is perfectly acceptable. It's not.

Asians, I find to be racist, almost by accident. It's rarely intentional and most of them are genuinely sorry once they actually consider what they've been doing.

MY feeling is that active and determined racism is rare. It's not common in society anymore (if it ever actually was, like Ireland, which had a more national discrimination), and people like Dr. Joseph are intent on bringing it back because it makes them feel special. Minorities and those who are discriminated against, are big money. It's naive to think otherwise.

But "quiet" racism is everywhere and should be tolerated to an extent. I've noticed racist comments from just about everyone I encounter. Big deal. They're not acting out on their racism with the intent to cause pain and actual harm.

My problem with Dr. Joseph and their ilk, is that they want to create a less tolerant society... a less patient society... a society that monitors and controls what people say or think... One that ignores the realities and complexities of human thought. So, no, bugger that.

ThunbergsAreGo

She's just another Gemma but with a different agenda

Kermit.de.frog

...

FTA69

Mulberrytree wrote: »

I don't like Dr. Joseph for a number of reasons, the main one being that everything is reduced to colour with her.

I'll qualify this by stating that I too am a black woman living and working here.

That said, the amount of filthy racist or racially loaded venom directed at her on Twitter, and even here, where some have made apologies for it is depressing.

Her course in the uni, I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole and I've read some of her published work which is shaking-the-head stuff.
She's made a nice little career for herself but there are better positioned and much more socially nuanced people I know who could direct that course without her incendiary and inflammatory language

Now, this drink thing, I totally get her. Unless you've ever been on the receiving end of insidious racism, it's easy to dismiss her gripe as the usual me-victim lamentation. She could have handled this by going to management without the publicity though

Not all racism is reportable. It's like bullying. Sometimes it's not overt. Actually a LOT of the time, it's subtle, and the end result is some level of paranoia with all negative social situations. Is it because that person is a jerk? I'd it because they don't like me? Are they a jerk that doesn't like me because I'm black? Filters that would be easier if the colour question wasn't always included.

Sitting on a bus and people not sitting next to you, yes, this is a real thing many people of colour could expand on. Having your cash notes checked constantly and overtly even when the previous customers didn't, foolish questions that assume you either lived in direct provision or are on welfare (no to both, very much a professional) assumptions you like bananas or chicken (don't eat either), conversations in a communal setting that deliberately exclude (assumptions that you'd know nothing about Irish history, for example, or, simply ignoring you whenever you speak) or include based on stereotypes (that you like rap, or jazz), assumptions you must know so and do, just because you're both black never mind there from a completely different country, assumptions you can't read English - or that poor spoken English is indicative of low intelligence (a co worker remarked about someone who had a PhD written in French and was shocked they had this level of education because their English wasn't so great) I have a lot more, but choosing the most difficult to talk about to people who've never ever experienced these things on a constant, repeated basis, year after year, that only occurs because of assumably, your colour.

Written down these may seem harmless. They may even be stereotyping rather than racially charged events, but even so, if you're constant getting stereotyped because of your colour or origins, well, doesn't that make it a racial thing? (I've left out the overt things like people spitting in your direction, or deliberately blowing smoke in your direction, houting -go back to your country or the N word, all of which have happened with complete strangers as I've been going about my business)

Generally because such incidents are not physically or verbally violent, they can't really be tackled, but they do wear one down.
They're demoralising and it becomes obvious that colour difference is the reason they happen.

So, something as innocuous or accidental as a swapped drink all of a sudden become another in a long list of small incidents that grate

It doesn't mean Irish society is racist. My husband is Irish, I have Irish friends, I work with Irish people. There are racists that live here though. And they should be called out for the bullies they are, who dislike people based on nothing more than their not looking like them. It only takes one incident after all for the victim to get traumatised. Because that's what bullying does. It's hurtful and awful.
(I'll anticipate replies by also saying that people of colour can be incredibly racist as well - some of the most distressing incidents I've personally experienced have been from people from the Asian continent actually, but given this topic is Dr. Joseph and Irish society, my 2 c is specific to experiences with Irish people).

Very well written and a fair post, thanks. I’m glad that you can see past the idiots and ignorance out of some people and see Ireland for the great country it usually is.

Omackeral

Originally posted by Klaz

Point is though, that I wanted to live here. I accept the attitudes of the people who are uncomfortable with a foreigner

I’m Irish. White. Working class.

I fully reject the attitudes of racist people here. “All the Blacks are always....”. If someone starts a platitude like that, I’m already switching off. You can accept it in China if you want to. I don’t accept it here.

I don’t mind a harmless joke or some based on race, some are funny. Some gentle ribbing about race can be a bit of craic too if not malicious. What I abhor is when people casually call people n*ggers, or any racial slur, for that matter. It’s the dismissiveness and nonchalant manner of it most of all that rubs me up the wrong way. Like it’s acceptable. It’s not.

Irish Guitarist

sabat wrote: »

It is worrying-this guy has basically instigated a public witch hunt against 6 random people named David Cooney who happen to use LinkedIn, where their employers and work contacts can be reached:
https://mobile.twitter.com/HyperbolicDub/status/1213474584747544576
This is a reactionary mob if I ever saw one. On what authority does that guy get the right to attempt to publicly ruin some stranger's life?

That's disgraceful. The very least he could do is look up these names without mentioning it publicly. There's absolutely no need to plaster their names on Twitter. The only reason he's doing this is to make himself look like a hero.

And he doesn't even have the right name. The email is from someone named Declan Cooney and he's going around looking for David Cooney.

Mad_maxx

Mules wrote: »

I think the blackcurrant thing is mad but I could see Dr Joseph getting in to politics. She'd have a sufficiently brass neck to get things done. Maybe a future Fianna Fail candidate:D

No, pure Social Democrats

Mad_maxx

Sagats_knee wrote: »

These ‘woke’ types on twitter who love to accuse and shame others are the same types who would have been reporting people who didn’t agree with them to the stasi, Spanish inquisition or the like throughout history.

They go around accusing others and stirring up division and hatred, while portraying a smug holier than thou attitude to the world like they’ve never done wrong themselves. Resorting to the wildest accusations when they don’t get their way. Stateofyou is case in point.

All they are is bullies trying to get their power trip in the Internet. Hypocritics.

Christ was right when He said ‘ let he who is without sin cast the first stone’. A lesson people have sadly forgotten.

They'd have been in lock step with the Catholic Church in Ireland in the 1950s

Same authoritarianism.

Same desire to censor and control

Secular nuns and clergy

Earthhorse

Deleted User wrote: »

I "picked a fight" earlier in this thread with a very articulate poster solely because I respected him as a poster who can throw sentences together - and he was a good sounding board for what I would want to say Thanks Earth by the way.

No worries. I did have a response composed in my head to your last post but then it looked like the thread might die and after it became active again I thought we'll just end up going in circles on this.

Gonna unsubscribe from it now anyway.

fryup

all you people dismissing racism, look what this poor man has to endure on a daily basis.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2N-sf7NgrA

Topgear on Dave

Mad_maxx wrote: »

They'd have been in lock step with the Catholic Church in Ireland in the 1950s

Same authoritarianism.

Same desire to censor and control

Secular nuns and clergy

I have been thinking EXACTLY the same.

perrito caliente

Deleted User wrote: »

Even now, with extensive exposure to genuinely Black cultures, and people, I'm still uncomfortable with them. That is racism but honestly, I don't take any issue with it.

I'm struggling to get my head around this. I understand that you may be fearful of people from other cultures and races, but surely fear and discomfort are things to be interrogated and understood, rather than worn on your lapel.

the beer revolu

perrito caliente wrote: »

I'm struggling to get my head around this. I understand that you may be fearful of people from other cultures and races, but surely fear and discomfort are things to be interrogated and understood, rather than worn on your lapel.

Well, his stand is at least refreshing.
Finally, a racist who admits to being racist.
It's a strangely rare thing.

Ballso

Mad_maxx wrote: »

They'd have been in lock step with the Catholic Church in Ireland in the 1950s

Same authoritarianism.

Same desire to censor and control

Secular nuns and clergy

So true. Just the latest iteration of the gatekeepers of morality. Most of them seem to have chosen the defence of Islam as their hill to die on for some insane reason. I remember left wingers used to abhor authoritarian religions.

Ash.J.Williams

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

It was obviously a light hearted Christmas joke

That’s actually the definition of racist, so I’m going with the “mistake” option.

punisher5112

In work last year a male from Africa with his rasta hat on whom frequents around Camden at and around the city told me he was going to rape my whole family, father, mother, brothers, sister's, wife, kids etc and then chop their heads off and then mine.....

This was over him using a social services card which wasn't a free travel pass and he didn't like I spotted he had that as he showed it stating it doesn't work while covering near half the card with his fingers.

He told me I was a fcuking racist a#s Irish cnut, fcuking fat fcuk among many many more comments while punching the bus screen and then kicking the doors.

He eventually got off and then was boxing the windscreen and tried to open the side window and also spat on the window numerous times.

He done the death threat with the gesture across the neck and then proceeded to moon the whole bus....

The male is a black male and the most racist person I've ever dealt with oh and to top it off a Garda van even passed as he was spitting and mooning and they looked the other way....

Who do I report this to? Eh nobody as it doesn't fit the typical agenda and as I'm Irish and White I actually must have been without a shadow of a doubt been the racist one sure there could be no other explanation.

This is only one incident of many over the years at work.

storker

fryup wrote: »

all you people dismissing racism, look what this poor man has to endure on a daily basis.....

Hilarious, especially the Irish dancing bit. That nearly caused an undesirable monitor-coffee interface...

storker

Mad_maxx wrote: »

They'd have been in lock step with the Catholic Church in Ireland in the 1950s

Same authoritarianism.

Same desire to censor and control

Secular nuns and clergy

That's because the human race has always had a plentiful supply of people who cannot abide the idea that others may want to live their lives differently, and make it their business to harangue, judge, persecute. The ideologies change; the behaviour doesn't.

Omackeral

punisher5112 wrote: »

Last year a male from Africa with his rasta hat on whom frequents around Camden at and around the city told me he was going to rape my whole family, father, mother, brothers, sister's, wife, kids etc and then chop their heads off and then mine.....

That sounds like a lot of effort tbh. Wouldn't be for me.

Mad_maxx

Ballso wrote: »

So true. Just the latest iteration of the gatekeepers of morality. Most of them seem to have chosen the defence of Islam as their hill to die on for some insane reason. I remember left wingers used to abhor authoritarian religions.

the left never abhorred authoritarian regimes , thats for sure

our own president has heaped praise on many down the decades

As I was saying...

Mulberrytree wrote: »

Now, this drink thing, I totally get her. Unless you've ever been on the receiving end of insidious racism, it's easy to dismiss her gripe as the usual me-victim lamentation. She could have handled this by going to management without the publicity though

Not all racism is reportable. It's like bullying. Sometimes it's not overt. Actually a LOT of the time, it's subtle, and the end result is some level of paranoia with all negative social situations. Is it because that person is a jerk? I'd it because they don't like me? Are they a jerk that doesn't like me because I'm black? Filters that would be easier if the colour question wasn't always included.

Sitting on a bus and people not sitting next to you, yes, this is a real thing many people of colour could expand on. Having your cash notes checked constantly and overtly even when the previous customers didn't, foolish questions that assume you either lived in direct provision or are on welfare (no to both, very much a professional) assumptions you like bananas or chicken (don't eat either), conversations in a communal setting that deliberately exclude (assumptions that you'd know nothing about Irish history, for example, or, simply ignoring you whenever you speak) or include based on stereotypes (that you like rap, or jazz), assumptions you must know so and do, just because you're both black never mind there from a completely different country, assumptions you can't read English - or that poor spoken English is indicative of low intelligence (a co worker remarked about someone who had a PhD written in French and was shocked they had this level of education because their English wasn't so great) I have a lot more, but choosing the most difficult to talk about to people who've never ever experienced these things on a constant, repeated basis, year after year, that only occurs because of assumably, your colour.

Written down these may seem harmless. They may even be stereotyping rather than racially charged events, but even so, if you're constant getting stereotyped because of your colour or origins, well, doesn't that make it a racial thing? (I've left out the overt things like people spitting in your direction, or deliberately blowing smoke in your direction, houting -go back to your country or the N word, all of which have happened with complete strangers as I've been going about my business)

Generally because such incidents are not physically or verbally violent, they can't really be tackled, but they do wear one down.
They're demoralising and it becomes obvious that colour difference is the reason they happen.

So, something as innocuous or accidental as a swapped drink all of a sudden become another in a long list of small incidents that grate.

Nice post. Really gives me an insight into the thought process. Regrettable though that you had to preface it with criticism of Ebun Joseph, almost as your credentials to comment in this poisonous thread!

The problem as I see it is that "these incidents" are mostly not incidents. I'll completely grant you that not infrequently they are real. But inferring potential-racism any time someone elects not to sit beside you on the bus or assumes you like rap is a recipe for paranoia.

I'm quite fastidiously polite. I go out of my way to make sure I'm not obstructing people in the street and give them space when walking past. And I expect the same in return but I don't get it. Every day I have multiple people brush past me or force me to have to walk around them. It's a real hassle that causes me daily stress and if I were black I could quite easily reduce those minor insults to my black identity. I've also noticed people seem often not to sit beside me on the Dart. I don't know why that is! But in the absence of an identity to reduce it to, I'm just thankful that I have more space.

I know that your point is that individually they're irrelevant but collectively they point to something real. But I feel I could also create a collection of micro insults that I experience to corroborate some persistent attack against my identity. It seems to me that these incidents are magnified because of the insecurity felt by someone in a minority. And that's absolutely understandable and something with which I greatly sympathise. But I don't think it's productive to hover your finger over the racism button every time something like that happens.

Deleted User wrote: »

I've been living in China for over a decade. All of the things you mentioned, I receive on one level or another on a daily basis. The spitting after you walk by, the stares, the empty space around you on the bus, etc etc etc.

Fact is, though, is that I wanted to live in China.

Big difference. You're a privileged Westerner being subjected to insecure xenophobia whereas black people in Ireland are invariably socially precarious and have been subjected to racism globally for centuries.

And if you respond by saying the Irish were subjected to racism for centuries/decades in England, first, I'd say that the kind of prejudice experienced in no way compares with the type black people still suffer, and second, the Irish in the UK are as touchy as anything about supposed inadvertent insults. They haven't subscribed to your principle that choosing to live somewhere means you should endure whatever is thrown at you.

punisher5112

Omackeral wrote: »

That sounds like a lot of effort tbh. Wouldn't be for me.

Oh I thought that too myself....