Formula 1 2020 - General Discussion Thread (See MOD warning on first post)

El_Duderino 09

vectra wrote: »

All these damning comments about Vettel are a laugh,
You would swear to Jaysus he went to be one night and woke up not remembering how to race.

Not sure what all the praise about Hamilton is either, nobody saying he is a bad driver or anything, but in fairness he only has 2 drivers to beat. And one of those is his teammate that wouldn't be allowed to beat him. So that leaves one.

That would be valid comment if anyone had suggested he "went to be one night and woke up not remembering how to race". But his for for the last wo years has been bad and it's gotten worse in the last couple of months. The quali gap to his teammate must be a source of embarrassment to him at the moment, not to mention the points totals.

One thing that is a laugh is some people ignoring recent form and harking back to 2011 for evidence that he is a top driver because he was a top driver back then. It's a great example of thinking with the heart. But that's the great thing about sport, it can make people irrational. All the recent evidence tells a very clear story about Vettel's current and recent level of performance, but some people ignore all that and think with their feelings.

Man with broke phone

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

That would be valid comment if anyone had suggested he "went to be one night and woke up not remembering how to race". But his for for the last wo years has been bad and it's gotten worse in the last couple of months. The quali gap to his teammate must be a source of embarrassment to him at the moment, not to mention the points totals.

One thing that is a laugh is some people ignoring recent form and harking back to 2011 for evidence that he is a top driver because he was a top driver back then. It's a great example of thinking with the heart. But that's the great thing about sport, it can make people irrational. All the recent evidence tells a very clear story about Vettel's current and recent level of performance, but some people ignore all that and think with their feelings.

Surely if he was just dipping in form he would have the odd lap, say one in ten where he was as fast as the other car, bottas gets close to Lewis every few laps, are you saying Vettels form has dipped consistantly to 3 to 400 seconds slower than leclerc.

El_Duderino 09

Man with broke phone wrote: »

Surely if he was just dipping in form he would have the odd lap, say one in ten where he was as fast as the other car, bottas gets close to Lewis every few laps, are you saying Vettels form has dipped consistantly to 3 to 400 seconds slower than leclerc.

Is that the case? Is someone saying Bottas is having a dip in form? I would have said Bottas form is pretty stable and yes, he can compete with Hamilton every now and again. You're not really comparing like with like.

I haven't said made the pint you make above. But if we translate that to quali laps, then that might actually be the case. Leclerc's lap was over half a second faster than Vettel this weekend. What conclusion can you draw from the recent form in quali from this season as a whole? It doesn't tell a good story and I urge you to go and acyaully look at it. Here's an analysis from a few races ago - Leclerc has won on every metric since then (Quali, Q3 appearances, race position and points scored). Vettel has outqualified Leclerc twice this season and they were both at the start of the season.

Are you suggesting Ferrari is sabotaging Vettel or they are intentionally giving him a less good car? Make your case

bennyx_o

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

The same criticism is not leveled at Hamilton because the evidence suggests he's an excellent overtaker.

I'm not going to get into a long drawn out Hamilton debate (again), but, you state that evidence suggests Hamilton is an excellent overtaker but don't back it up - What evidence suggests he's an excellent overtaker? Doesn't he have 4 penalty points on his Super License for incidents while overtaking Alexander Albon?

Also, 57 of his 92 race wins came from pole. He's been in the best car since the hybrid engines have come in. There's a few races in 2014 and one from 2016 where he has started from outside the top 10 to finish on the podium, but, I think if you put Vettel in that car in the same race, you'd get a similar result.

I'm not saying Hamilton is a poor overtaker, but, I wouldn't call him an excellent one either.

quokula

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

The same criticism is not leveled at Hamilton because the evidence suggests he's an excellent overtaker. Nor has the same accusation been leveled at Ricciardo because he's an excellent overtaker (probably the best on the grid). Similarly, Max is an excellent overtaker. But Vettel has often struggled. He's not bad, but overtaking was probably the weak part of his game back when he was a very good driver. Now he has added weak parts to his game such as qualifying, spinning/crashing and overall loss of speed so it's not such a prevalent issue.

But suggesting Hamilton could be accused of being similarly poor at overtaking demonstrates the absurdity of the situation. Some people seem immune to reality.

There really is that there is no evidence that Hamilton is an excellent overtaker - as has been pointed out, when racing anyone other than a totally subservient team-mate who jumps out of the way he's consistently been pretty poor. When he was in the joint / second best car around 2011 / 2012 he had quite a reputation for running into people regularly.

You seem to be immune to judging drivers on their own merits, rather than the car they are in.

Man with broke phone

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Is that the case? Is someone saying Bottas is having a dip in form? I would have said Bottas form is pretty stable and yes, he can compete with Hamilton every now and again. You're not really comparing like with like.

I haven't said made the pint you make above. But if we translate that to quali laps, then that might actually be the case. Leclerc's lap was over half a second faster than Vettel this weekend. What conclusion can you draw from the recent form in quali from this season as a whole? It doesn't tell a good story and I urge you to go and acyaully look at it. Here's an analysis from a few races ago - Leclerc has won on every metric since then (Quali, Q3 appearances, race position and points scored). Vettel has outqualified Leclerc twice this season and they were both at the start of the season.

Are you suggesting Ferrari is sabotaging Vettel or they are intentionally giving him a less good car? Make your case

I dont think you fully understand what Im saying. I m ok though its no big deal.


Lando Norris has said that Hamilton is in a car that should win every single race, belittling his 92 wins. He later apologised but how would Lando know Hamiltons car is faster than everybody elses. Idiot doesnt realise hamilton is just driving it faster.

El_Duderino 09

Man with broke phone wrote: »

I dont think you fully understand what Im saying. I m ok though its no big deal.


Lando Norris has said that Hamilton is in a car that should win every single race, belittling his 92 wins. He later apologised but how would Lando know Hamiltons car is faster than everybody elses. Idiot doesnt realise hamilton is just driving it faster.

I don’t think I understood your point either. And I presume you’re being sarcastic about Norris being an idiot. So Instead of asking cryptic questions or being ironic, why not make the case, as you see it?

muckwarrior

Hamilton has had his fair share of clashes, but one key difference between his and Vettel's is that he almost never takes himself out. Whether that's just luck, or he's good enough to calculatedly take other drivers out, I don't know.

pjohnson

quokula wrote: »

There really is that there is no evidence that Hamilton is an excellent overtaker - as has been pointed out, when racing anyone other than a totally subservient team-mate who jumps out of the way he's consistently been pretty poor. When he was in the joint / second best car around 2011 / 2012 he had quite a reputation for running into people regularly.

You seem to be immune to judging drivers on their own merits, rather than the car they are in.

And absolute truckloads of recency bias.

Harika

bennyx_o wrote: »

?

Also, 57 of his 92 race wins came from pole. He's been in the best car since the hybrid engines have come in. There's a few races in 2014 and one from 2016 where he has started from outside the top 10 to finish on the podium, but, I think if you put Vettel in that car in the same race, you'd get a similar result.

I'm not saying Hamilton is a poor overtaker, but, I wouldn't call him an excellent one either.

I remember Schumacher being attributed for making the car the best. How does this not apply to Hamilton?

bennyx_o

Harika wrote: »

I remember Schumacher being attributed for making the car the best. How does this not apply to Hamilton?

My original point was around 'evidence suggesting' Hamilton is an excellent overtaker and looking for the evidence for the claim

Frank Bullitt

https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/54711481

Why exactly is Norris apologising for this?

He said this after the race on Sunday.

"I'm just happy for him, nothing more," the Briton replied. "It doesn't mean anything to me, really. He's in a car which should win every race, basically.

"He has to beat one or two other drivers, that's it. Fair play to him, he's still doing the job he has to do."

Nothing offensive in there that I can see, or am I missing something?

Frank Bullitt

https://twitter.com/jasonbarlowuk/status/1321147950953910272

Some bigger news today too. Not sure how much this will trickle to F1, but AM and Merc are very chummy these days.

tipp_tipp_tipp

Bit on the fence myself as to how good Hamilton is at overtaking. He's definitely pulled off some good moves over the years, but has had a few stupid crashes over the years. Those run ins with Massa in 2011 got a bit bizarre. I sometimes wonder if he had effects of concussion after the spa crash that year.

One thing though I've always thought is that Hamilton is very good at the switch back out of hairpins. Having failed many times to do this in sim racing it's a skill I admire. I put "Hamilton overtakes" into youtube for a laugh and the following was the first hit. Funnily enough first one is a switch back on Bottas at Bahrain. Does a similar move on him at silverstone. Incidentally, I'd forgotten the move around the outside on Bottas at hungary that year, that was a nice one. Some good racing between them, a yet we have posts here claiming Bottas is a "totally subservient team-mate who jumps out of the way". The mind boggles.

You also see the switch back at USA 2018 against max. I know someone will point out he ballsed it up at the end, but remember I said he was good at the switch back specifically. He put a tiny bit of oversteer into the car at the left hand hairpin to straighten the car up on the exit. That was a really nice piece of driving. Pity about the ending .

He used it well against Rosberg in Bahrain 2014 too.

Don't remember very many dive bombs Danny Ric style from him over the years. Against Raikkonen in 2007 Monza stands out, but I'd but struggling to remember any more after that.

afatbollix

You'd never see the old boys doing anything like this.

Imagine Hamilton, Vettel or Kimi doing this. Great to see the new generation creating their own content and not just leaving it to the track. At the end of the day they are walking sponsor boards and all PR is good PR.

Lando's Twitch got shut down recently let's hope FOM catch up with how the young generation watches media instead of leaving them behind.

Harika

Harika wrote: »

I remember Schumacher being attributed for making the car the best. How does this not apply to Hamilton?

Because testing bans. Because car complexity. Because budget.

Schumacher started in Jordan for one race, outqualified his teammate by 3/4 of a second.
Joined Benetton and took them to titles.
Joined a long-time floundering Ferrari took them to titles. And there was one more straight after he left.
Joins Mercedes just before a period of undreamt of domination.


Schumacher, Brawn and Byrne were the trifecta. Ferrari were a joke before they joined and went back to being a joke not very long after they left because too many people involved cared more about politics than success.

Drivers now don't get into the car until testing before the season and do what, a thousand kilometres before the season starts? On prescribed tyres and all the rest. Testing now is really a case of "does the car do what we think it will do once the parts are actually bolted on?".
Testing used to be pushing the envelope. Would run experimental parts that may not be legal but could be used to check other parts. Now it's more a formality as the cars are designed off-line as it were.

vectra

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

That would be valid comment if anyone had suggested he "went to be one night and woke up not remembering how to race". But his for for the last wo years has been bad and it's gotten worse in the last couple of months. The quali gap to his teammate must be a source of embarrassment to him at the moment, not to mention the points totals.

One thing that is a laugh is some people ignoring recent form and harking back to 2011 for evidence that he is a top driver because he was a top driver back then. It's a great example of thinking with the heart. But that's the great thing about sport, it can make people irrational. All the recent evidence tells a very clear story about Vettel's current and recent level of performance, but some people ignore all that and think with their feelings.

There could be a very simple and valid reason for Vettel falling further back as the season goes.
How about Ferrari is developing the car for Charles which in turn doesn't suit Vettel?

And that "Very clear story about Vettels current performance"
Could be very well attributed to the above.

BUt,
Next year could be good to him and see him back being the only driver putting it up to Hamilton.

quokula

Deleted User wrote: »

Because testing bans. Because car complexity. Because budget.

Schumacher started in Jordan for one race, outqualified his teammate by 3/4 of a second.
Joined Benetton and took them to titles.
Joined a long-time floundering Ferrari took them to titles. And there was one more straight after he left.
Joins Mercedes just before a period of undreamt of domination.


Schumacher, Brawn and Byrne were the trifecta. Ferrari were a joke before they joined and went back to being a joke not very long after they left because too many people involved cared more about politics than success.

Drivers now don't get into the car until testing before the season and do what, a thousand kilometres before the season starts? On prescribed tyres and all the rest. Testing now is really a case of "does the car do what we think it will do once the parts are actually bolted on?".
Testing used to be pushing the envelope. Would run experimental parts that may not be legal but could be used to check other parts. Now it's more a formality as the cars are designed off-line as it were.

Plus there's the fact that most of Schumacher's best drives came in cars that were a long way from the fastest. Once Ferrari did have the best car, he ran away with it, but he spent years plugging away in slow cars and still routinely putting in performances that showed him to be the class of the field. It was obvious to everyone watching that the titles he won were a just reward for everything he'd done in his career up to that point.

It's like if Mercedes had replaced Rosberg with Alonso when he retired, as some speculated at the time. Alonso would be a 6 time champion now, and he'd be comfortably recognised as an all time great, not because of the easy titles he won in the Merc, but because of all the epic drives he put in prior to that. Hamilton has never shown himself to be anywhere near that level when he wasn't in the best car on the grid by a mile.

quokula

afatbollix wrote: »

You'd never see the old boys doing anything like this.

Imagine Hamilton, Vettel or Kimi doing this. Great to see the new generation creating their own content and not just leaving it to the track. At the end of the day they are walking sponsor boards and all PR is good PR.

Lando's Twitch got shut down recently let's hope FOM catch up with how the young generation watches media instead of leaving them behind.

Did FOM shut Lando's channel down? That's a ridiculous decision if so. I hadn't checked on it in a while, but it was brilliant entertainment during the delay to the start of the season when they were doing sim racing.

Jordan 199

For the attention of anyone playing F1 2020 - does it have any of the circuits that are a one-off for this year such as Portimao and Mugello included?

flazio

quokula wrote: »

Did FOM shut Lando's channel down? That's a ridiculous decision if so. I hadn't checked on it in a while, but it was brilliant entertainment during the delay to the start of the season when they were doing sim racing.

I think afatbollix just forgot a full stop in that sentence. I don't think FOM had anything to do with Lando closing his Twitch

donspeekinglesh

Jordan 199 wrote: »

For the attention of anyone playing F1 2020 - does it have any of the circuits that are a one-off for this year such as Portimao and Mugello included?

Not as far as I know.

PukkaStukka

Jenson Button was lined up for interview at 9:15 on Ireland AM but looks like there are "technical issues". Hasn't happened as of yet

ELM327

Jordan 199 wrote: »

For the attention of anyone playing F1 2020 - does it have any of the circuits that are a one-off for this year such as Portimao and Mugello included?

I am in season 5 of the "my team" mode on 50/100% races and can confirm they are not included.


It is the pre covid 2020 schedule.

ELM327

Gintonious wrote: »

https://twitter.com/jasonbarlowuk/status/1321147950953910272

Some bigger news today too. Not sure how much this will trickle to F1, but AM and Merc are very chummy these days.

As you say, there's been a legacy relationship between AM and merc. AM will be using Merc engines in F1.


The only possible future outcome of this is if Merc leave F1 as a constructor, they would look to become works supplier to AM

PukkaStukka

PukkaStukka wrote: »

Jenson Button was lined up for interview at 9:15 on Ireland AM but looks like there are "technical issues". Hasn't happened as of yet

It's on now

PopePalpatine

Jordan 199 wrote: »

For the attention of anyone playing F1 2020 - does it have any of the circuits that are a one-off for this year such as Portimao and Mugello included?

Codemasters don't have any plans to add them. Thankfully there's rFactor/Assetto Corsa/Automobilista to plug the gap.

pjohnson

PukkaStukka wrote: »

It's on now

Arsè missed it.

AMKC

Was the Jenson Button interview any good? Hopefully it will be up on You-Tube at some stage.

flazio

https://twitter.com/F1/status/1321401077904920576?s=19

Good decision IMO. Alpha Tauri is a better seat for him until either Max moves on or something becomes available elsewhere up the grid.