Formula 1 2020 - General Discussion Thread (See MOD warning on first post)

GarIT

afatbollix wrote: »

It does seem a bit silly saying freeze the engine design, Surely that means Merc would be dominant for the next 5 years?

Or does it mean that they would get to design a new engine and everyone else cant work on the engine?

I'm sure there is a reason but no one has asked RB for us.

There was already an agreement on a token system for engine development from the point onwards that Red Bull want an engine freeze.


Very strangely there is also an ongoing discussion on allowing weaker engines to use more fuel to level the field a bit. It would be the same way the wind tunnel testing works, Mercedes would be allowed 105kg per race, Honda or Renault whichever is faster 108Kg, the other of Honda or Renault 112Kg and Ferrari 115Kg.

El_Duderino 09

GarIT wrote: »

There was already an agreement on a token system for engine development from the point onwards that Red Bull want an engine freeze.


Very strangely there is also an ongoing discussion on allowing weaker engines to use more fuel to level the field a bit. It would be the same way the wind tunnel testing works, Mercedes would be allowed 105kg per race, Honda or Renault whichever is faster 108Kg, the other of Honda or Renault 112Kg and Ferrari 115Kg.

Oh man, I’d be a big fan of that.

Better engines would still have an advantage in quali but the race would be better for it.

It would be interesting to see the engine manufacturers scramble to play down their engine power: “ah no man, our Mercedes engine is a GP2 engine.

GarIT

Magnusson has sort of confirmed he is retiring. "I haven't won in 7 years and another year isn't going to change that so I'm looking for other challenges"

Inquitus

GarIT wrote: »

Very strangely there is also an ongoing discussion on allowing weaker engines to use more fuel to level the field a bit. It would be the same way the wind tunnel testing works, Mercedes would be allowed 105kg per race, Honda or Renault whichever is faster 108Kg, the other of Honda or Renault 112Kg and Ferrari 115Kg.

That's a bit too much of an artificial change, its not far off what they have done in Endurance Sportscar racing where they had the Balance of Performance (BOP) introduced to artificially bring the racing closer together. Can't say I'd be a fan of this.

Hijpo

Man with broke phone wrote: »

Lads I have a family member who has special needs. Now Im fairly rhino skinned but it does really annoy me when I hear people use the word mongol or retard. That was actually what they were called when I was a kid.

It really shows a lack of class when you tell somebody they must have downes syndrome because they crashed their car.

If you knew the hard work amazing people put in to help people with special needs lead a life where they dont have to be made feel bad for whatever journey they are on no matter how rough the terrain and how hard people with special needs are willing to work just to feel normal or not a burden you wouldnt be happy enough with the future of the sport you support using the words.

Same here. First thing came to my mind is an adult with learning difficulties that is aware of that insult and is sitting their watching it because they like F1. The thoughts of the disappointment and sadness running through them, it would be heart wrenching.

El_Duderino 09

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah that’s a fair analysis.

F1 looks very weak at the moment. Has it always been like this or is this a really different time?

It's different this time because they've let the lunatics take over the asylum.
Following the American model of closed-shop "leagues" is what's killing it. FFS if that's true about Red Bull wanting an engine freeze and locking in their disadvantage just shows that competition and competitiveness isn't anywhere near the top of most teams' priorities.
Similar has been gradually happening in football and teams have been gaining power. Sometimes there are missteps but it all helps move the Overton window. A whole discussion there not worth getting into on a motorsports forum. :P

El_Duderino 09

Inquitus wrote: »

That's a bit too much of an artificial change, its not far off what they have done in Endurance Sportscar racing where they had the Balance of Performance (BOP) introduced to artificially bring the racing closer together. Can't say I'd be a fan of this.

Big fan of watching Mercedes win it at a canter? Looking forward to another 5 years of the same thing?

skipper_G

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's different this time because they've let the lunatics take over the asylum.
Following the American model of closed-shop "leagues" is what's killing it. FFS if that's true about Red Bull wanting an engine freeze and locking in their disadvantage just shows that competition and competitiveness isn't anywhere near the top of most teams' priorities.
Similar has been gradually happening in football and teams have been gaining power. Sometimes there are missteps but it all helps move the Overton window. A whole discussion there not worth getting into on a motorsports forum. :P

You mean the brand new change requiring new entries to pay 200 million? That's had no impact whatsoever because it's brand new.

Maybe Red Bull know the engine isn't that much of a difference maker. If it was only the engine, wouldn't we see Merc, Racing Point and Williams all at the front.

El_Duderino 09

naughto wrote: »

Why do they want a development freeze if they take over the engine program can they not develop it them selves

It looks like they wouldn’t want to develop then engine them selves. Hey must think the Honda is better than the Renault otherwise they would just go with Renault. And they must think they can maintain TV at advantage and maybe get an advantage by developing the Honda by bringing a fresh perspective.

But they don’t want to be engine manufacturers. They just want to freeze the engines and focus on what they do best which is designing the rest of the car.

skipper_G

skipper_G wrote: »

You mean the brand new change requiring new entries to pay 200 million? That's had no impact whatsoever because it's brand new.

Well it does have an impact because it instantly makes teams worth a ****-ton more money. A team just barely keeping its head above water now has an intangible asset worth $200million just by existing. To start a new team now will mean needing start-up capital of close to half a billion.
It's all part of the closed-shop direction F1 has been going in for the last while.

skipper_G

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Well it does have an impact because it instantly makes teams worth a ****-ton more money. A team just barely keeping its head above water now has an intangible asset worth $200million just by existing. To start a new team now will mean needing start-up capital of close to half a billion.
It's all part of the closed-shop direction F1 has been going in for the last while.

Point noted and accepted, the existing teams now have an additional value. However, I would contend that having 10 financially viable teams is better than 12 or 13 teams with half of them scraping to survive. What value does a new team bring if they don't have a budget to compete. F1 doesn't need another HRT

skipper_G

skipper_G wrote: »

Point noted and accepted, the existing teams now have an additional value. However, I would contend that having 10 financially viable teams is better than 12 or 13 teams with half of them scraping to survive. What value does a new team bring if they don't have a budget to compete. F1 doesn't need another HRT

Couple of thing;
The new teams were ****ed by the promised budget cap not materialising as well as the change to ban refueling. They also entered at a time when BMW were pulling out so new entries were at least financially viable to start with on paper.
The other thing is that with the closed shops it's now a lot easier for teams to sit back. There's even less point in taking chances or taking on debt. That's along with the lack of competitiveness that's currently baked in.

Charlie-Bravo

Just watching a YouTube video about what drivers could line up for red bull next year. Verstappen is signed up and Gasly is safe in my opinion.

Maybe Tsunoda will get the step up if he gets the super licence points. And will probably take Kyvat's seat. So that really leaves red bull to fill Albon's seat (I don't think he'll getting a drive next season). And who will it be? Hulk? Checo?

Man with broke phone

astrofluff wrote: »

Just watching a YouTube video about what drivers could line up for red bull next year. Verstappen is signed up and Gasly is safe in my opinion.

Maybe Tsunoda will get the step up if he gets the super licence points. And will probably take Kyvat's seat. So that really leaves red bull to fill Albon's seat (I don't think he'll getting a drive next season). And who will it be? Hulk? Checo?

I cant see checo not getting a seat and I think he is a perfect fix to push max. He might be half a hundreth of a second slower than max in the same car but he will be steady and consistent where I think sometimes max pushes the car too far and sometimes his DNFs are caused by his lack of composure and car management.

Dont be at yourself

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Also hoping to take over Honda engine program but it depends on an engine development freeze.

Can't see Ferrari agreeing to that given how far behind they are.

mickdw

Man with broke phone wrote: »

I cant see checo not getting a seat and I think he is a perfect fix to push max. He might be half a hundreth of a second slower than max in the same car but he will be steady and consistent where I think sometimes max pushes the car too far and sometimes his DNFs are caused by his lack of composure and car management.

Cant see checo getting close to max. Even with a level playing field, he wouldnt be as quick as max but coming into verstappens team with a car designed for max, he would be 3 tenths back like albon i fear.

Charlie-Bravo

It's that red bull seat that is the prize for the end of the season now. There's not many people that will be available and capable to take it on.

Man with broke phone

mickdw wrote: »

Cant see checo getting close to max. Even with a level playing field, he wouldnt be as quick as max but coming into verstappens team with a car designed for max, he would be 3 tenths back like albon i fear.

He might be able to adjust the seat abit back or forward depending on his leg length and how cool he wants to lean. Might even be able to sit his elbow on the window ledge.

In seriousness id say them taking him serious in how he wants the car set up would be part of the deal. He isnt some rookie.

Jordan 199

For anyone who has Sky, check out The Race To Perfection which is shown on Sky Documentaries. Only found out about it while watching qualifying yesterday.

Dont be at yourself

mickdw wrote: »

Cant see checo getting close to max. Even with a level playing field, he wouldnt be as quick as max but coming into verstappens team with a car designed for max, he would be 3 tenths back like albon i fear.

3 tenths back would have Checo on the 2nd row alongside Max most races, which would mean Merc would no longer have completely free reign on their pit strategy.

mickdw

Dont be at yourself wrote: »

3 tenths back would have Checo on the 2nd row alongside Max most races, which would mean Merc would no longer have completely free reign on their pit strategy.

I meant 3 tenths at best, sometimes further back but
I agree that checo would be far more consistant
and might but himself in that supporting position more often than not.

recyclebin

If Red Bull keep Albon and don't sign up Perez for next season then Marko or Horner need to get the sack.

GarIT

recyclebin wrote: »

If Red Bull keep Albon and don't sign up Perez for next season then Marko or Horner need to get the sack.

Twas an embarrasing display again today.

Faugheen

He’s got way more chances than Gasly had.

mickdw

Faugheen wrote: »

He’s got way more chances than Gasly had.

Gasly should be put back in im beginning to think.

Harika

Albon is gone.
"Won't be replaced before the end of the year"
"Two races to proof himself"
You cannot be clearer in management speak

Edit
Also wolf to Russell rumours, he called to touch base and " it's their call. "
What translates to " I told them the engine is subsidized for Russell"

El_Duderino 09

mickdw wrote: »

Gasly should be put back in im beginning to think.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if he did get back into the Red bull. If he gets in again and he goes backwards then it raises serious questions about the environment at red bull. It also raises serious questions about the quality of the red bull. I’m not certain it’s a very good car. I really think it’s only ok and it’s very prone to oversteer. Max can get the speed from it but it seems very difficult for the second driver.

So why is there such a big difference between the first and second drivers?

Harika

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

So why is there such a big difference between the first and second drivers?

Look at Schumacher at Mercedes. No chance as the car and driving style didn't suit him.

El_Duderino 09

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It would be interesting to see what would happen if he did get back into the Red bull. If he gets in again and he goes backwards then it raises serious questions about the environment at red bull. It also raises serious questions about the quality of the red bull. I’m not certain it’s a very good car. I really think it’s only ok and it’s very prone to oversteer. Max can get the speed from it but it seems very difficult for the second driver.

So why is there such a big difference between the first and second drivers?

Because as much as we'd like to think the "best" driver is a simple, linear affair, it isn't. Some years Webber could run Vettel close, some years it was embarrassing. Sometimes cars use set-ups that are completely counter-intuitive to decades of practice and some drivers can't figure it out. Even in terms of running to a pace, in some cars it's easier than others. With the stupid tyres (and in certain conditions) simply lifting and coasting a bit is fine, but in other cases will lead to tyres losing temperature and couter-intuitively wear more quickly.
To see just how stupid the tyres are go back to when Pirelli came in. Up til then you had the likes of Hamilton (I'm about to praise him!) come into GP2 and bang, wins in his first year. The year before Rosberg did the same. Once the Pirellis came in it was taking drivers time to get up to speed. It's less of an issue now as they come through F3 with Pirelli as well but it shows even teenagers who've excelled through karting and a couple of other series need to re-learn how to drive a race.
But yeah, long story short, tyres. :pac: I've no doubt Verstappen is a phenomenal driver but the car is on a knife-edge in a way that seems to suit him and few (if any) others. I believe with the engine deficit it's the only way Red Bull can come close to challenging for the odd win here and there. They could probably sacrifice a couple of tenths of outright pace with a complete overhaul of the chassis and make their second driver a couple of tenths quicker at the same time to even things up but at the end of the day it would just leave them further behind.

Dont be at yourself

Albon surely gone now after today, another shocker.