Formula 1 2020 - General Discussion Thread (See MOD warning on first post)

the_pen_turner

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

That's undoubtedly a crucial element of f1 and for all the talk about what f1 should be and how we can't interfere with the pureness of the sport, this needs to be addressed because it can't go on like this.

At the moment we're all just waiting to get this season and next season over with so we can see what the new rules bring in 2022. Nobody except myself seems to be even considering that the rules don't bring any guarantee of competitiveness. Mercedes must be odds on to continue to build the best engine and they have built the best or top few chassis every year in this formula. So there's no reason to think that won't continue.

Not much use if the Red Bull Renault's aerodynamics mean it can follow the Mercedes but in practice it still finished the race 30 seconds behind.

Closeness of racing as to be a focus in the short term future.

every other team is frantically trying to upgrade their cars to catch the mercs .
merc is so far ahead that they can develope for next year already. they will spend all next year throwing everything at 2022

El_Duderino 09

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Just one thing I'll say on "gimmicks", one example is tyres. In the past the tyre manufacturer(s) had rules to work within and tried to make the fastest tyres for whatever circumstances. Sometimes it was worth making a qualifying tyre to last one lap. Sometimes it was worth making tyres to last a whole race.
Now Pirelli are told to make the tyres last x laps, not because it's the fastest way to run a race but just because. That's a gimmick at the end of the day. I don't blame Pirelli for the tyres since they came in. But if there were another manufacturer at the moment would there be any chance they'd be following Pirelli's lead?

You're not wrong about the tyres or about gimmicks in general. But if you start analysing what is and isn't a gimmick in F1, then you'll quickly realise the entire sport is a made up gimmick. Having aerodynamic turning vanes all over the car - gimmicks. Using two tyre compounds - gimmick. Adjusting brake balance between corners - gimmick.

Getting rid of degrading tyres would mean the drivers could push like hell and that would be better to watch (wouldn't necessarily make it more competitive as the driver chasing would push harder and so would the defending driver). But the tyres that can't take a full quali lap without overheating is just silly and is hamstringing itself.

Perelli looks like it has absolutely no demands placed on them to do anything differently. No competition and it looks like they're smashing their remit.

El_Duderino 09

flazio wrote: »

Can anyone place the accent? I'm thinking Midlands, possibly Offaly. Definitely rural with the way he says "generator".
https://twitter.com/MercedesAMGF1/status/1312324260891815936?s=19

Not Laois or Offaly anyway. People from that part are inclined to replace th with d sounds and replace t with h. So it would have been 'generaher' for generator.

Part of me thinks further west and waterford accents always surprise me. Could be waterford. But not Cork, limerick, clare, kerry, direction.

Edit: Facebook says he's from sligo.

Infoanon

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Nobody except myself seems to be even considering that the rules don't bring any guarantee of competitiveness.

History tells us that nothing is going to change - it's the same cycle - rules change , one team dominates , the others start to catch up , rules change again etc etc

It's always been the way.

F1 is a sport NOT entertainment and as other motorsports have shown adding gimmicks doesn't solve the problems.

Sport is supposed to be man and machine on an equal footing and there's where F1 fails.
F1 does not have a level playing field and the situation has greatly deteriorated over the years.

Levelling the playing field (ie $$ and allowing the less competitive teams to test) is the only way to improve F1 and have at least some competition.

El_Duderino 09

Infoanon wrote: »

History tells us that nothing is going to change - it's the same cycle - rules change , one team dominates , the others start to catch up , rules change again etc etc

It's always been the way.

F1 is a sport NOT entertainment and as other motorsports have shown adding gimmicks doesn't solve the problems.

Sport is supposed to be man and machine on an equal footing and there's where F1 fails.
F1 does not have a level playing field and the situation has greatly deteriorated over the years.

Levelling the playing field (ie $$ and allowing the less competitive teams to test) is the only way to improve F1 and have at least some competition.

Well, F1 is an entertainment and a sport and a business. It's like the way a reality TV show is actually scripted to make sure it's entertaining. There's no way you could pitch a TV show where you just see what happens and hope it's entertaining to watch. But back in the early days of reality TV they showed the Big Brother contestants sleeping! That was good enough because it was genuinely novel to see that kind of thing. Now reality shows have to be semi-scripted and choreographed to make sure they're entertaining because the novelty value is used up and can't carry them anymore. Likewise with F1, it IS intended to be good to watch and does need to have close racing to survive.

Back after the war, it didn't matter it it was great to watch because it was red hot technology and motor racing (as opposed to biological racing with humans, dogs or horses,) was a brand new concept. It was like magic and that alone was a huge draw. And as if that wasn't enough, it was also developing technology that was what consumers and manufacturing of all kinds, wanted. In other words, F1 sat on its arse and shat a golden egg.

But now all is changed (changed utterly). The petrol engine technology is old hat, everyone has one sitting in their yard and nobody is impressed by the presence of a 200 horsepower engine anymore (at one time that would leave peope dumbfounded). Now f1 has lost lost its USP. It doesn't have to be entertaining in the same sense as it doesn't have to survive as a sport or a business.

El_Duderino 09

Infoanon wrote: »

History tells us that nothing is going to change - it's the same cycle - rules change , one team dominates , the others start to catch up , rules change again etc etc

It's always been the way.
...
F1 does not have a level playing field and the situation has greatly deteriorated over the years.

Levelling the playing field (ie $$ and allowing the less competitive teams to test) is the only way to improve F1 and have at least some competition.

I agree with this though. The budget cap will hopefully help but it will take time. As it stands, ferrari doesn't even produce a separate set of accounts for the F1 team. It just produces accounts for the entire business so I imagine it has absolutely no intention to comply with the budget cap.

Policing the cap will take years of playing whack-a-mole with the bigger teams and manufacturers. They come up with new ways to bury costs in the wider company and the FIA cracks down on them in deals like the ferrari engine deal and rule clarification. And then start again the next year.

Boring topic but the question of intellectual property could become important in the future. One part or subsidiary of ferrari spends x million developing technology and it then sells the IP to the ferrari F1 team for half of x. No detailed accounts makes that deal veey hard to police.

El_Duderino 09

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

At the moment we're all just waiting to get this season and next season over with so we can see what the new rules bring in 2022. Nobody except myself seems to be even considering that the rules don't bring any guarantee of competitiveness. Mercedes must be odds on to continue to build the best engine and they have built the best or top few chassis every year in this formula. So there's no reason to think that won't continue.

Not much use if the Red Bull Renault's aerodynamics mean it can follow the Mercedes but in practice it still finished the race 30 seconds behind.

Closeness of racing as to be a focus in the short term future.

Not sure where you're getting that from, most of what I've read on boards (I don't follow on twitter and the only bit of Reddit I'm on is Formula Dank) is worry that Merc are top til ~2027 and just a hope that 2022 might be different. I don't think I've seen many expect Merc to not be right at the top in 2 years, if anything that's the main concern.

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

You're not wrong about the tyres or about gimmicks in general. But if you start analysing what is and isn't a gimmick in F1, then you'll quickly realise the entire sport is a made up gimmick.

Well then everything except eating your necessary calories and procreative sex is a gimmick. :pac:

Having aerodynamic turning vanes all over the car - gimmicks.

Nope. Point is to win a race. Do that by being fastest. Aerodynamic parts make you faster

Using two tyre compounds - gimmick.

More or less.

Adjusting brake balance between corners - gimmick.

The opposite, if anything. Banning changes would be a gimmick. Same as movable aero parts not being allowed.

Getting rid of degrading tyres would mean the drivers could push like hell and that would be better to watch (wouldn't necessarily make it more competitive as the driver chasing would push harder and so would the defending driver). But the tyres that can't take a full quali lap without overheating is just silly and is hamstringing itself.

I was thinking more in the context of a few decades ago, specifically when qualifying and the race were completely separate so a qualifying tyre made sense. As did a tyre to last the whole race or half race distance. Both of those were about being as quick as possible as the tyre companies could manage rather than a diktat from above.

Perelli looks like it has absolutely no demands placed on them to do anything differently. No competition and it looks like they're smashing their remit.

Some of the tyre situations since Pirelli came in have been ridiculous but I can't put any blame at their feet. They've had to follow and react to conditions and directions while making tyres that actually work when taking corners at 200mph which is no mean feat.

One thing on the tyres that reminds me of why I don't like the teams having a say in the rules were the camber and pressure situations a few years ago. Pirelli got criticism for tyres failing and teams complained that they were failing when they were run outside their operating window despite the teams being the ones who made the choice. It's like they want to get rid of any risk/reward.

El_Duderino 09

Really interesting stuff in the most recent Missed Apex podcast. They have a track designer chatting about why the tracks are the way they are.

And then some really juicy gossip and speculation on the Honda situation. Matt Carter reckons that Red Bull had known of Honda's intention to leave for a few months. He implied that the Mercedes hybrid engine boffin (Andy Cowell) who left Mercedes a short while ago saying he wants a new challenge but not saying where he's going. He might be on gardening leave and will then head up Red Bull's engine design team.

I'm reading between the lines but that's what it sounded like.

Link here
https://overcast.fm/+GUSo-w9ig

PukkaStukka

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Really interesting stuff in the most recent Missed Apex podcast. They have a track designer chatting about why the tracks are the way they are.

And then some really juicy gossip and speculation on the Honda situation. Matt Carter reckons that Red Bull had known of Honda's intention to leave for a few months. He implied that the Mercedes hybrid engine boffin (Andy Cowell) who left Mercedes a short while ago saying he wants a new challenge but not saying where he's going. He might be on gardening leave and will then head up Red Bull's engine design team.

I'm reading between the lines but that's what it sounded like.

Link here
https://overcast.fm/+GUSo-w9ig

Cowell may have left Mercedes due to the pressure he was under. There was reference made in comments made by Wolfe recently to people leaving the team due to being at the end of their health. If that's true in Cowell's case, the last thing he'll need is the pressure of producing a winner for Red Bull. But if he goes there, good luck to him!

El_Duderino 09

PukkaStukka wrote: »

Cowell may have left Mercedes due to the pressure he was under. There was reference made in comments made by Wolfe recently to people leaving the team due to being at the end of their health. If that's true in Cowell's case, the last thing he'll need is the pressure of producing a winner for Red Bull. But if he goes there, good luck to him!

Yeah its just speculation to be fair. It might come to nothing.

They clarify later in the podcast that Red Bull had or has some tie-in with Ilmor Engines. Back in the Renault days they bought in some Ilmor people and might have bought into Ilmor. So they might be able to buy the Honda engine and develop it through an in house Ilmor engineering arrangement. It's all speculation but definitely one to keep an eye on.

Infoanon

Honda informed Red Bull of a potential withdrawl in August and informed of the decision at the end of September is the official line. Usually reliable journos confirm this and Hondas withdrawl is a bolt from the blue for the majority in the sport.

Red Bull building it's own engine is highly unlikely - considering how long it took Honda to get it right ,Ferraris struggles and the mega money for such a project - it will be a Renault power plant in the back of those cars in 2022 in all likelihood

AMKC

Infoanon wrote: »

Honda informed Red Bull of a potential withdrawl in August and informed of the decision at the end of September is the official line. Usually reliable journos confirm this and Hondas withdrawl is a bolt from the blue for the majority in the sport.

Red Bull building it's own engine is highly unlikely - considering how long it took Honda to get it right ,Ferraris struggles and the mega money for such a project - it will be a Renault power plant in the back of those cars in 2022 in all likelihood

Agreed and Renault have said they are willing go but I think they will come out the better from the supply deal. I wonder how Max sill feel about that. Maybe Aston Martin would take him on but I do not think Vettel would be happy then. Max would do with a Mercedes powered car. Max and Vettel could be interesting at Aston Martin. It's either that or he goes to Mercedes or whatever it will be called then if it's still in F1 and if either Bottas or Lewis was to leave.

El_Duderino 09

AMKC wrote: »

Agreed and Renault have said they are willing go but I think they will come out the better from the supply deal. I wonder how Max sill feel about that. Maybe Aston Martin would take him on but I do not think Vettel would be happy then. Max would do with a Mercedes powered car. Max and Vettel could be interesting at Aston Martin. It's either that or he goes to Mercedes or whatever it will be called then if it's still in F1 and if either Bottas or Lewis was to leave.

Max and Vettel would be big names but I don't think there would be any contest. If LeClerc can beat Vettel, week after week, then max would embarrass him.

Stroll is investing heavily in the racing point factory so their long term prospects are good. But the short term will be much the same as the past and the present. Some illegal Mercedes parts aside, it's only an ok car. The fact that RP didn't actually develop the car best bits and suspicion is that the improvement between last year and this year is the Mercedes parts. So its actually not that great a prospect in the short term.

Max would almost certainly be equally well off at red bull-renault.

One big different is that the Red Bull is prone to losing the rear end while the RP looks more stable. In any case, nobody would suggest that Max will challenge for the title this year or next year in any car except a Mercedes.

Frank Bullitt

Saw a tweet that said that in 2005, we had Mercedes, Ferrari, BMW, Honda, Toyota and Cosworth supplying engines. In 2022 we will have Ferrari, Renault and Mercedes. Bit of a sad one that.

Frank Bullitt

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

That's undoubtedly a crucial element of f1 and for all the talk about what f1 should be and how we can't interfere with the pureness of the sport, this needs to be addressed because it can't go on like this.

At the moment we're all just waiting to get this season and next season over with so we can see what the new rules bring in 2022. Nobody except myself seems to be even considering that the rules don't bring any guarantee of competitiveness. Mercedes must be odds on to continue to build the best engine and they have built the best or top few chassis every year in this formula. So there's no reason to think that won't continue.

Not much use if the Red Bull Renault's aerodynamics mean it can follow the Mercedes but in practice it still finished the race 30 seconds behind.

Closeness of racing as to be a focus in the short term future.

I am with you on this one. I also am not sure the budget cap will really stop Merc that much considering the baked in advantage they have with their unit as it is.

AMKC

I think if they want fix the current a future F1 then engines need to be contracted out to a separate company from the teams and let the teams do all the rest. All the teams would get the same e fine or P.U and would be allowed to fit there own gearbox, to choose there gear ratios, do there own aero all that but the P.U or engine would be the same for everyone so it would come down to who builds the best chassis and aero will be the one with the best and fastest car. Then Ferrari, Merc, Renault, would not need to worry about that and could use them factories and workers for building engines for there road cars so no one would get laid off maybe some could go help Cosworth or whoever supply the power units maybe based on Mercedes design.

tipp_tipp_tipp

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Really interesting stuff in the most recent Missed Apex podcast. They have a track designer chatting about why the tracks are the way they are.

And then some really juicy gossip and speculation on the Honda situation. Matt Carter reckons that Red Bull had known of Honda's intention to leave for a few months. He implied that the Mercedes hybrid engine boffin (Andy Cowell) who left Mercedes a short while ago saying he wants a new challenge but not saying where he's going. He might be on gardening leave and will then head up Red Bull's engine design team.

I'm reading between the lines but that's what it sounded like.

Link here
https://overcast.fm/+GUSo-w9ig

Thanks for that, never listened to that podcast before. It's pretty good, very cool to have a former team CEO on it.

GarIT

Taking artificial limits off the amount of electricity used would be a big help.


If they can make the electricity they should be permitted to use it.


Scrap the eingle rules and replace it with one rule. You can use 110kg of liquids including fuel in the race. other than that build whatever engine you like. If you decide to go for fully electric fine, or combustion only, then fine.


Then the 110kg decreses by 2kg every year and that's how the engine formula gets changed up over time.

PukkaStukka

I see Indycar is also pausing the introduction of its hybrid engines on the grounds of costs

https://www.autosport.com/indycar/news/152573/indycar-delays-hybrid-power-units-to-2023

I also read elsewhere that current Indycar engines are reputed to cost around $200k whereas F1 engines are costing several million. No wonder F1 is on a mess

El_Duderino 09

tipp_tipp_tipp wrote: »

Thanks for that, never listened to that podcast before. It's pretty good, very cool to have a former team CEO on it.

No problem. Yeah Matt Carter is very good.

They have another guest about once month named Joe Saward. He's often very good too. He doesn't have all the info but he often has good insights. I'll pop a message in the thread when he's on next. It'll be interesting to see what he says about Honda.

The show itself can be good but they get bogged down in really amateur banter.

flazio

I tried listening to it for a couple of months but I found the host to be an obnoxious sh*t stirrer and gave up.

GarIT

Helmut Marko said he has known for months Honda would be leaving but Christian Horner didn't know until this week. He has confirmed the teams can leave between any season. They have also not spoken to Kivyat about 2021 yet.

El_Duderino 09

flazio wrote: »

I tried listening to it for a couple of months but I found the host to be an obnoxious sh*t stirrer and gave up.

Yeah fair enough. The could cut the banter and make the show half as long and it would be much more tolerable. I only listen to the Matt Carter and Joe Saward episodes.

Comedy is a real skill. Podcasts really show the difference between someone who's genuinely funny vs someone who can make their friends laugh. The main guy, Spanners, is an absolute dose.

billybonkers

GarIT wrote: »

Helmut Marko said he has known for months Honda would be leaving but Christian Horner didn't know until this week. He has confirmed the teams can leave between any season. They have also not spoken to Kivyat about 2021 yet.

Seems odd Marko wouldn't discuss with Horner

GarIT

billybonkers wrote: »

Seems odd Marko wouldn't discuss with Horner

When asked about why Horner was hopeful about Honda staying last week the quote was "we had known about Honda's decision for a long time. Mr. Horner is a team principal but not involved in strategic matters". We meaning Marko and the owner.


That doesn't seem like good management to me.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzodB1eCHxs

El_Duderino 09

GarIT wrote: »

When asked about why Horner was hopeful about Honda staying last week the quote was "we had known about Honda's decision for a long time. Mr. Horner is a team principal but not involved in strategic matters". We meaning Marko and the owner.


That doesn't seem like good management to me.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzodB1eCHxs

That's interesting. Maybe they didn't trust him not to leak the info. Doesn't sound like a great relationship. Mainly it means Hornet isn't involved in contingency planning around the engine supply after next season. I imagine they have been looking at options since they found out about Honda leaving and Horner is out of the loop.

None of my business in any case. Marko can run his business any way he wants- and he's not bad at running his business to be fair. Strange practice in any case.

rock22

GarIT wrote: »

When asked about why Horner was hopeful about Honda staying last week the quote was "we had known about Honda's decision for a long time. Mr. Horner is a team principal but not involved in strategic matters". We meaning Marko and the owner.


That doesn't seem like good management to me.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzodB1eCHxs

it actually seems very dismissive of Horner and his role in the team.

quokula

GarIT wrote: »

When asked about why Horner was hopeful about Honda staying last week the quote was "we had known about Honda's decision for a long time. Mr. Horner is a team principal but not involved in strategic matters". We meaning Marko and the owner.


That doesn't seem like good management to me.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzodB1eCHxs

Makes it sound like Red Bull pulling out of the sport is a possibility. Because surely that would be the only decision that they wouldn't want to consult Horner about. Changing engine supplier has massive implications for chassis design and you'd want your team principal and lead designer involved as early as possible if you're serious about staying competitive.

ELM327

Perhaps there will be a Red Bull Mugen team.
Red Bull could buy the design, like the mechachrome Renault engines

El_Duderino 09

ELM327 wrote: »

Perhaps there will be a Red Bull Mugen team.
Red Bull could buy the design, like the mechachrome Renault engines

Matt Carter was speculating on a Red Bull-Ilmor collaboration. He also speculated that the Mercedes bloke who left Mercedes recently could be part of that. But someone else said that guy left because of stress so it's all speculation.

Red Bull has engine expertise from it's days with Renault. They bought in engine specialism help Renault and it has a tie-in with Ilmor.