Formula 1 2020 - General Discussion Thread (See MOD warning on first post)

ELM327

Ilmor work with Mercedes engines thiough right? Red Bull Mercedes would be interesting and finally a challenge to Lewis

Frank Bullitt

Do Red Bull have the time and resources to start something like that up though? Might not work for 2022, so they would need a stop gap of sorts. Considering that all the PU manufactures run their own works team now too, RB will probably not be getting the the full treatment they would want/need to fight for consistent wins. And if I can think of this, so can Max.

I've had an inkling that Horner's been getting a bit sick of everything the while they've not been challenging for titles. Him not knowing about Honda leaving is pretty bad. Even if Marko had a reasonable suspicion of it leaking that's bad in its own way.

donspeekinglesh

ELM327 wrote: »

Ilmor work with Mercedes engines thiough right? Red Bull Mercedes would be interesting and finally a challenge to Lewis

The original Ilmor was bought by Mercedes after Paul Morgan died. But Mario Illien (and Roger Penske) bought the name back and basically refounded the company. They've done stuff in IndyCar and MotoGP, but I don't know that they've being doing in recent years.

Hijpo

Instead of focusing on restricting development and "gimmicks" as they have been called, maybe the simplest option would be to revise the points system to keep the championship battle alive longer?

Hijpo

Hijpo wrote: »

Instead of focusing on restricting development and "gimmicks" as they have been called, maybe the simplest option would be to revise the points system to keep the championship battle alive longer?

Got a suggestion? 20, 19, 18, 17... would mean a couple of DNFs could be catatstrophic.

Hijpo

Deleted User wrote: »

Got a suggestion? 20, 19, 18, 17... would mean a couple of DNFs could be catatstrophic.

Narrow it to three points in the difference maybe?

You'll still have the meritocracy that deserves to be there but it wont be so easy for them to build so much of a gap after a handful of races.

tipp_tipp_tipp

Hijpo wrote: »

Instead of focusing on restricting development and "gimmicks" as they have been called, maybe the simplest option would be to revise the points system to keep the championship battle alive longer?

Nascar style playoff system

Adamocovic

tipp_tipp_tipp wrote: »

Nascar style playoff system

Then we will have one of these crazy stories!

Matt Crafton, I know it's off topic to F1 but won a Truck Series Championship without winning a race. In fact he's a 3 time Truck Series Champion, with a combined 3 wins in those three winning seasons.

Actually Keke Rosberg won a championship without only 1 win which is close! Still above video is an entertaining piece into the Nascar system.

Harika

tipp_tipp_tipp wrote: »

Nascar style playoff system

Just let the last race decide. Whoever wins will be champion.

Top Dog

Interesting video listing the 7 possible options for RedBull. For those who don't have the patience to watch...

1. Ferrari engine. Unlikely as they didn't have a great break up in the past, and who would want the current wrost engine available
2. Mercedes engine. Highly unlikely that Mercedes would supply a genuine competitor (unless they become an engine suuplier only and sell the works team - then they won't care who they supply)
3. Renault engine. Most likely of the 3 remaining engine manufacturers as they could be obliged due to having the least customers
4. RedBull build their own. They have the finances, but it would be a huge commitment when they often threaten to leave
5. New engine manufacturer joins F1 - most improbable of all options
6. RedBull sell the team. Williams found a buyer so good chance RedBull could too
7. RedBull follow Honda out the door.

Renault has to be the most likely option, but will Max stay?

tipp_tipp_tipp

Adamocovic wrote: »

Then we will have one of these crazy stories!

Matt Crafton, I know it's off topic to F1 but won a Truck Series Championship without winning a race. In fact he's a 3 time Truck Series Champion, with a combined 3 wins in those three winning seasons.

Actually Keke Rosberg won a championship without only 1 win which is close! Still above video is an entertaining piece into the Nascar system.

First comment on that video is gas "It's weird that a driver in the Cup Series could win every pole, every stage, win 35 races and lead every lap except the last lap and finish 4th in the standings".

Can you imagine Bottas beating Hamilton to a title in this format. The moaning would be epic

GarIT

Top Dog wrote: »

Interesting video listing the 7 possible options for RedBull. For those who don't have the patience to watch...

1. Ferrari engine. Unlikely as they didn't have a great break up in the past, and who would want the current wrost engine available
2. Mercedes engine. Highly unlikely that Mercedes would supply a genuine competitor (unless they become an engine suuplier only and sell the works team - then they won't care who they supply)
3. Renault engine. Most likely of the 3 remaining engine manufacturers as they could be obliged due to having the least customers
4. RedBull build their own. They have the finances, but it would be a huge commitment when they often threaten to leave
5. New engine manufacturer joins F1 - most improbable of all options
6. RedBull sell the team. Williams found a buyer so good chance RedBull could too
7. RedBull follow Honda out the door.

Renault has to be the most likely option, but will Max stay?

Nobody seems to be suggesting they hedge their bets Renault in the Red Bull and Ferrari in the Italian Alfa Tauri.

vectra

Top Dog wrote: »

Interesting video listing the 7 possible options for RedBull. For those who don't have the patience to watch...

1. Ferrari engine. Unlikely as they didn't have a great break up in the past, and who would want the current wrost engine available
2. Mercedes engine. Highly unlikely that Mercedes would supply a genuine competitor (unless they become an engine suuplier only and sell the works team - then they won't care who they supply)
3. Renault engine. Most likely of the 3 remaining engine manufacturers as they could be obliged due to having the least customers
4. RedBull build their own. They have the finances, but it would be a huge commitment when they often threaten to leave
5. New engine manufacturer joins F1 - most improbable of all options
6. RedBull sell the team. Williams found a buyer so good chance RedBull could too
7. RedBull follow Honda out the door.

Renault has to be the most likely option, but will Max stay?

1)
Ferrari currently worst. But who is to say it will be the worst when the time comes?

5)
Was there talk of Porsche engine?

Max.
Where would he go? Not many top teams might want him with the insults and accusations he has made.

Inquitus

vectra wrote: »

1)
Ferrari currently worst. But who is to say it will be the worst when the time comes?

I think Ferrari is Red Bull's best option, it only comes into play though if Ferrari are supplying less or the same number of Customers as Renault in 2022. If they both supply the same number and no deal is reached, they effectively toss a coin.

El_Duderino 09

Inquitus wrote: »

I think Ferrari is Red Bull's best option, it only comes into play though if Ferrari are supplying less or the same number of Customers as Renault in 2022. If they both supply the same number and no deal is reached, they effectively toss a coin.

As it stands, Renault only supply themselves for 2021 and 2022 and ferrari supply themselves plus 2 customers. So it would need ferrari to agree to it. Under normal circumstances you'd say ferrari would refuse, as they did a few years ago, before red bull went with Honda. But post covid the money calculations are completely different. So they might take a different tack now.

If you had to bet, you wouldn't bet on merc or ferrari agreeing to supply them. But who knows.

GarIT

Abeitboul has said Renault will fulfill their obligation to supply Red Bull and Alfa Tauri if required but he hopes it doesn't come to that.

He has said Red Bull have not contacted him so he believes they have other plans.

muckwarrior

GarIT wrote: »

Abeitboul has said Renault will fulfill their obligation to supply Red Bull and Alfa Tauri if required but he hopes it doesn't come to that.

He has said Red Bull have not contacted him so he believes they have other plans.

It's a few days since he said that. Sure poor Christian barely even knew at that stage :pac:

Harika

Most likely is Renault followed by red bull buying the Honda factory and developing themselves or get some one like Aston Martin to get on board as title sponsor

El_Duderino 09

Harika wrote: »

Most likely is Renault followed by red bull buying the Honda factory and developing themselves or get some one like Aston Martin to get on board as title sponsor

Aston Martin is a Stroll brand now. So I doubt they'll sponsor another team. But the idea that they could her another team to sponsor the engine is exactly what they have done in the past with AM and Tag.

Renault is going nowhere as an engine manufacturer. It's fine for teams who want to paddle about in the midfield and nick a podium every few seasons but anyone with serious intentions of competing fpr championships has to look elsewhere. Mclaren and red bull are serious about competing and they've moved away from Renault - but fate has moved red bull back in Renault's direction.

I'd love if red bull made its own engines with an engine partner. But it will take a few years to come to fruition. Next year will probably have Honda phoning it in as opposed to investing heavily so that's a write-off and then 2022 will be the first year with a new supplier so we're looking at 2023 at the earliest for red bull to be a serious competitor - and that's IF the new engine arrangement can close the gap to Mercedes.

AMKC

GarIT wrote: »

Abeitboul has said Renault will fulfill their obligation to supply Red Bull and Alfa Tauri if required but he hopes it doesn't come to that.

He has said Red Bull have not contacted him so he believes they have other plans.

Its Alpha Tauri not Alfa.

If I were Abeitboul I would rubbing me hands at the prospect of Red Bull have to use there engines as they can charge what they like if Red Bull have no other choice. They good charge two or three times the price for each engine if they wanted and get away with it. Make Red Bull pay for the time they moaned and gave out about them.

Inquitus

AMKC wrote: »

Its Alpha Tauri not Alfa.

If I were Abeitboul I would rubbing me hands at the prospect of Red Bull have to use there engines as they can charge what they like if Red Bull have no other choice. They good charge two or three times the price for each engine if they wanted and get away with it. Make Red Bull pay for the time they moaned and gave out about them.

You can only charge $15m a season for customer engines from 2022 onwards.

Harika

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Renault is going nowhere as an engine manufacturer.


I'd love if red bull made its own engines with an engine partner. But it will take a few years to come to fruition. Next year will probably have Honda phoning it in as opposed to investing heavily so that's a write-off and then 2022 will be the first year with a new supplier so we're looking at 2023 at the earliest for red bull to be a serious competitor - and that's IF the new engine arrangement can close the gap to Mercedes.

Renault making great progress, what's visible in Renault and McLaren moving forward. It took them years to catch up even with half a foot always in the door.

A new engine supplier who starts from scratch has to be mad. All other teams have a 10 year headstart. The only manufacturer who realistically could step in would be Toyota as they have the LMP base. If Honda bites its tounge and sell to them could work. Else any new manufacturer will wait until a new engine formula gets introduced, anything else is madness and the board who approves that should be fired.
Also most of the companies moving away from Petrol based engines, in some years there might be again a great competition when F1 moves over to electric engines. Until then, don't expect manufacturers joining.

Frank Bullitt

All this talk of engines, this is a great video.

Jordan 199

If Peugeot stuck with Jordan, they would have won races. Shame they went their seperate ways.

GarIT

Mised Apex Podcast is reporting that Christian Horner and Helmut Marko are on a flight to Austria to get sign off on the finances they need from Dietrich Mateschitz to buy the Honda engine design and possibly rebrand it as Mugen who are already based in Milton Keynes.

Harika

GarIT wrote: »

Mised Apex Podcast is reporting that Christian Horner and Helmut Marko are on a flight to Austria to get sign off on the finances they need from Dietrich Mateschitz to buy the Honda engine design and possibly rebrand it as Mugen who are already based in Milton Keynes.

Why mugen? Does Honda continue to sponsor?

SMC92Ian

GarIT wrote: »

Mised Apex Podcast is reporting that Christian Horner and Helmut Marko are on a flight to Austria to get sign off on the finances they need from Dietrich Mateschitz to buy the Honda engine design and possibly rebrand it as Mugen who are already based in Milton Keynes.

Rename it to Energy, so then you'd have your Red Bull Energy.

GarIT

SMC92Ian wrote: »

Rename it to Energy, so then you'd have your Red Bull Energy.

I was thinking that yesterday

AMKC

SMC92Ian wrote: »

Rename it to Energy, so then you'd have your Red Bull Energy.

Renault might not be to happy about that do as they use Energy on a lot of there engines so maybe they would have something to say about that if they have it registered or whatever.