Formula 1 2020 - General Discussion Thread (See MOD warning on first post)

donspeekinglesh

Thierry12 wrote: »

I found it embarrasing Porsche's 919 Hybrid LMP1 beat the F1 lap record in Spa a few years ago, this is F1 baby, what the hell.

The 919 was nowhere near race legal. Porsche had made a lot of changes to make it so fast and it barely beat the F1 record. F1 cars went faster again later in the year.

The LMP1 hybrids were far more impressive than the F1 hybrids. The hybrid tech was far better than what is used in F1, (at it's peak) the racing was close between 3 manufacturers - with 3 different design philosophies, and the way they passed the GT cars was staggering.

Frank Bullitt

donspeekinglesh wrote: »

The 919 was nowhere near race legal. Porsche had made a lot of changes to make it so fast and it barely beat the F1 record. F1 cars went faster again later in the year.

The LMP1 hybrids were far more impressive than the F1 hybrids. The hybrid tech was far better than what is used in F1, (at it's peak) the racing was close between 3 manufacturers - with 3 different design philosophies, and the way they passed the GT cars was staggering.

There was a few years of LMP racing that were just stellar and compelling, and the cars were so close over 24 hours.

Thierry12

donspeekinglesh wrote: »

The 919 was nowhere near race legal. Porsche had made a lot of changes to make it so fast and it barely beat the F1 record. F1 cars went faster again later in the year.

True,I don't think increasing power to 1160bhp and downforce etc was massive changes

F1 barely beat that time as well following few years

Like .5 second between them, too close imo

Just find it embarrasing that it took F1 almost 15 years to start beating those 2004 lap records, that's no fun for a driver, they want weapons, not barely faster than cars 15 years old

Frank Bullitt

Thierry12 wrote: »

True,I don't think increasing power to 1160bhp and downforce etc was massive changes

F1 barely beat that time as well following few years

Like .5 second between them, too close imo

Just find it embarrasing that it took F1 almost 15 years to start beating those 2004 lap records, that's no fun for a driver, they want weapons, not barely faster than cars 15 years old

Laptimes didn't really matter though, we have some insane seasons in those 15 years! That is all I want, I really do not care how fast they are, just the racing to be pure.

Thierry12

Gintonious wrote: »

Laptimes didn't really matter though, we have some insane seasons in those 15 years! That is all I want, I really do not care how fast they are, just the racing to be pure.

Your entitled to that opinion and i'm sure the majority agree, but for me if I was a F1 driver I would want a fast car, the best drivers in the world should have the best machinery

F2 and F3 have pleny of good pure races, F1 should be speed imo

Joeface

FIA or F1 leaders should have seen that if it wasn't inviting to other manufacturers. VW despite Dieselgate , Ford as a former engine supplier. BMW , Toyota . All these should be considering entering if it is still the pinnacle of motor sport. For the driver's it is still the pinnacle but for the manufacturer it's not.
I don't believe it should go back to the straight engines V8 or V10 .
I do believe there should be a hybrid element but the chosen version is just over complicated.

I am not sure how it should be configured but the recharge and all the elements it's just to many to be dealing with .

GarIT

quokula wrote: »

You seem to think the pinnacle of motorsport is the same as the pinnacle of what car manufacturers want to advertise.

It's not. The pinnacle of racing technology should be technology that's designed to produce the fastest cars possible, the previous generation of F1 engines still hold that title quite comfortably, and if they'd continued to develop they'd be even faster.

Some day EVs will surpass ICE, and Formula 1 should make the shift when that day comes, but we're currently nowhere near that point over the length of a 2 hour race.

Meanwhile self charging hybrids are the worst of all worlds as a completely dead end technology that never had any place in racing and will soon be made redundant on the road.

The current engines would be faster than any previous engines if they didn't have fuel and electricity limits. Sure they aren't as fast as previous engines that were allowed use more fuel.

Inquitus

Gintonious wrote: »

As some have said, FE looks to be the throne in the side of F1 now, because it is more aligned with where the industry is going, and is a fraction of the cost of F1 overall. Sure, they change cars etc, but that tech is rapidly advancing. I also think the cars look savage as well.

They don't change cars anymore, do you really know what you are talking about?

Dont be at yourself

What manufacturers are potentially interested in supplying the current engine formula? Porsche/Audi, Peugeot, Toyota? Can't see it myself...

Forget about "road relevance". The industry is quickly moving to electrification, which is not suited to top-level motorsport, and in any case covered by Formula E. Let F1 ditch the hybrid formula, return to ICE, making the cars smaller and cheaper.

Harika

Joeface wrote: »

FIA or F1 leaders should have seen that if it wasn't inviting to other manufacturers. VW despite Dieselgate , Ford as a former engine supplier. BMW , Toyota . All these should be considering entering if it is still the pinnacle of motor sport. For the driver's it is still the pinnacle but for the manufacturer it's not.
I don't believe it should go back to the straight engines V8 or V10 .
I do believe there should be a hybrid element but the chosen version is just over complicated.

I am not sure how it should be configured but the recharge and all the elements it's just to many to be dealing with .

Some pages before the idea was thrown in to standardise the combustion part as this is technology of the past and wont attract manufacturers anymore. Get a one for all from e.g. cosworth and let the electrical parts be engineered by manufacturers. Drives down costs and opens F1 for new manufacturers. There is a reason why formula e has 10? Manufacturers on board and F1 soon only 3. I would not be surprised to see Honda getting in there soon.

Charlie-Bravo

It's an absolute shame that Toyota left the sport before the hybrid era. I'd say they'd have been a good contender and possible champions having been developing hybrid drive systems before a lot of other road car manufacturers. We will never know unfortunately.

Who's going to be encouraged to enter F1 with a $200million entry fee.
I still haven't seen anyone explain why the manufacturers are necessary for F1 or for the fans. Now, of course, they're probably the only way we're going to see new entries into the game.
As I said about how the drivers should have little if any say in the rules, the same applies to the teams. With the new entry fees the teams are now the stakeholders in F1 and we'll see how than pans out.

Interestingly the bubble for TV sports rights seems to be popping elsewhere. While the $200million entry fee initially seems like it at least guarantees a constructor has something worth 200 million just by its very existence. As TV revenues fall will that value become purely theoretical like something with a fixed price on eBay for 3 years that never sells?

And what will happen with race fees over the next few years? great to see some tracks on the grid hosting races for free but will as many places be happy subventing a $30/40/50 million fee going forward as we go into a recession in the West?

Anyway, there's a reason patients don't run hospitals, let's see how it works out in the world of F1.

Frank Bullitt

Inquitus wrote: »

They don't change cars anymore, do you really know what you are talking about?

Well they used to change cars, so yes, I think I have a grasp on it, thanks very, much sweetheart.

Nice little documentary to pass an hour or so.

Frank Bullitt

Thierry12 wrote: »

Your entitled to that opinion and i'm sure the majority agree, but for me if I was a F1 driver I would want a fast car, the best drivers in the world should have the best machinery

F2 and F3 have pleny of good pure races, F1 should be speed imo

What use is speed if the car behind can't follow so has to stay behind to save their tires?

Cars were slower in 2010 and 2012, but we had a title down to the wire both times. Same as 2006, 2007 and 2008.

Just one thing I'll say on "gimmicks", one example is tyres. In the past the tyre manufacturer(s) had rules to work within and tried to make the fastest tyres for whatever circumstances. Sometimes it was worth making a qualifying tyre to last one lap. Sometimes it was worth making tyres to last a whole race.
Now Pirelli are told to make the tyres last x laps, not because it's the fastest way to run a race but just because. That's a gimmick at the end of the day. I don't blame Pirelli for the tyres since they came in. But if there were another manufacturer at the moment would there be any chance they'd be following Pirelli's lead?

I'm loving what the Honda mess is showing up. 2 teams could be without engines. Because new teams can't come in, an engine supplier will probably be forced to supply them. It's a symptom of a ****ed system when no-one wants to make millions in extra sales.

Infoanon

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm loving what the Honda mess is showing up. 2 teams could be without engines. Because new teams can't come in, an engine supplier will probably be forced to supply them. It's a symptom of a ****ed system when no-one wants to make millions in extra sales.

Renault have to supply Red Bull and Alpha Tauri under the rules.

No one will be coming into F1 in 2022.

Renaults "partner" not "customer" supply suddenly makes a lot of sense

Thierry12

Inquitus wrote: »

They don't change cars anymore, do you really know what you are talking about?

Formula E would be interesting if battery tech wasn't locked down

Autogiants would pour in millions into battery R&D trying different battery chemistries, low weight, high density, packaging, solid state, graphene etc and down the line those batteries would go into road cars

Instead FE have a so so battery made solely by williams engineering

A battery war is whats needed there and they need to relax rules on max of 250kW motors

Honestly FE is just a compliance series imo

Specs are god awful

800kg car
330bhp
250kg 50kWh battery pack

Is as far from cutting edge as possible

Todays tech is good enough for FE to compete with F1 over a short distance

FE is closer to F3 than F1

mickdw

Is the current engine formula running beyond 2022?
If so, i wonder is there any possibility of someone taking the honda engine under licence and running and developing it like the renault engines of the 90s - Supertec / Meccachrome / Playlife. I know the complexity is probably 100 fold now but with the development honda have done, and considering the difficultly in getting to this point, it would be an awful waste to just park the whole program.
Could the likes of Redbull fund such a deal to power their 2 teams and perhaps another team also - my own thinking is that anyone trying this would get left behind performance wise.

barryribs

Gintonious wrote: »

What use is speed if the car behind can't follow so has to stay behind to save their tires?

Cars were slower in 2010 and 2012, but we had a title down to the wire both times. Same as 2006, 2007 and 2008.

Title down to the wire doesn't necessarily mean the reaching is good. 10 and 12 were arguably Alonso's peak, pulled everything out of that car to even be in the discussion. 2006 wouldn't have been close if the FIA hadnt banned mass dampers mid season, 2007 Mclaren mismanaged the championship.

Whether it's mass dampers or when the measuring of thread depth is done, mid season rule changes have always been done to level the playing field (read this as help ferrari).

Harika

Thierry12 wrote: »

Formula E would be interesting if battery tech wasn't locked down

Autogiants would pour in millions into battery R&D trying different battery chemistries, low weight, high density, packaging, solid state, graphene etc and down the line those batteries would go into road cars

Instead FE have a so so battery made solely by williams engineering
1

I tell you a secret, billions are poured into battery research anyway as this is the holy grail, make a breakthrough here by inventing a battery with double range, half weight and your electric cars will be best sellers. Tesla is the most valued car manufacturer right now, ahead of Toyota and Volkswagen with only selling a fraction of cars. Mostly cause their car understanding of cars as a service and their technology is leading the electric industry.
Fe might open in future to a development race, atm they bring great races to the urban areas promoting electric cars. And that's working

duploelabs

astrofluff wrote: »

It's an absolute shame that Toyota left the sport before the hybrid era. I'd say they'd have been a good contender and possible champions having been developing hybrid drive systems before a lot of other road car manufacturers. We will never know unfortunately.

Given their success with LMP1 hybrid team, I would say they'd have done very well

Thierry12

Harika wrote: »

I tell you a secret, billions are poured into battery research anyway as this is the holy grail, make a breakthrough here by inventing a battery with double range, half weight and your electric cars will be best sellers. Tesla is the most valued car manufacturer right now, ahead of Toyota and Volkswagen with only selling a fraction of cars. Mostly cause their car understanding of cars as a service and their technology is leading the electric industry.
Fe might open in future to a development race, atm they bring great races to the urban areas promoting electric cars. And that's working

Know all that tbf

Lol at your Tesla comment, i'm a share holder and under no illusions if Musk was to die tomorrow so would Tesla and my 5 shares :-)

Tesla have no technological advantage over the likes of Toyota and VW, none

VW are barely flexing muscles right now and have already beat Tesla at the top with the Porsche Taycan and soon to be Rimac hypecar at the very top and at pleb end they've made the car Tesla promised a VW ID3 €35,000, 350km, fast charging family car

EVs are well understood

Tesla have some kind of autopilot tech thats akin to letting your 5 year old drive

VW and Toyota are smart enough to know we are a decades from that, we cant even get a handle on a bloody coronavrius, never mind Musks humans on Mars and cars driving themselves around fantasies

Anyway yeah a battery war is what will drive FE forward imo, progress would be immense, F1 would look pedestrian in a few years, but powers that be wont let that happen just yet

donspeekinglesh

FE is a cheap series that looks good on marketing brochures (if the team is doing well, otherwise it can be easily ignored).

Porsche made massive strides in battery tech with their LMP1 program, but spending F1 money, with few viewers (outside of Le Mans) is hard to justify from a marketing budget. Toyota are the only major manufacturer that fund the racing from the R&D budget. That's why they stayed in LMP1 and are building an LMH car - unlike the LMdH class hybrid development is allowed.

AMKC

Thierry12 wrote: »

Know all that tbf

Lol at your Tesla comment, i'm a share holder and under no illusions if Musk was to die tomorrow so would Tesla and my 5 shares :-)

Tesla have no technological advantage over the likes of Toyota and VW, none

VW are barely flexing muscles right now and have already beat Tesla at the top with the Porsche Taycan and soon to be Rimac hypecar at the very top and at pleb end they've made the car Tesla promised a VW ID3 €35,000, 350km, fast charging family car

EVs are well understood

Tesla have some kind of autopilot tech thats akin to letting your 5 year old drive

VW and Toyota are smart enough to know we are a decades from that, we cant even get a handle on a bloody coronavrius, never mind Musks humans on Mars and cars driving themselves around fantasies

Anyway yeah a battery war is what will drive FE forward imo, progress would be immense, F1 would look pedestrian in a few years, but powers that be wont let that happen just yet

The VW ID3 is nothing special and offers nothing new. If VW are so far ahead of Tesla then why did they not try and move the game on with the ID3 instead it's just dull and boring so your typical VW then. A Nissan Leaf or a Hyundai Ioniq are much better cars.

Harika

duploelabs wrote: »

Given their success with LMP1 hybrid team, I would say they'd have done very well

Their biggest achievement is that they are not losing in lmp1 as they have no real competition. Worse than Mercedes in F1.

flazio

Can anyone place the accent? I'm thinking Midlands, possibly Offaly. Definitely rural with the way he says "generator".
https://twitter.com/MercedesAMGF1/status/1312324260891815936?s=19

El_Duderino 09

quokula wrote: »

So we shouldn't base the formula on whatever is most suitable for racing, in case one team does it better and it turns out not to be competitive, but we should base the formula on what a car manufacturer wants to advertise, which we've already seen has definitely not been competitive?

You can make an argument for that if you want but it's certainly not what I think.

Pity you missed the point of the post so I'll recap. You said that making the cars go as fast as possible is the pinnicle of motorsport. I disagree as I think being the pinnicle of motors port is far more interesting than that. I mentioned how F1 defaulted I to being the pinnicle of motorsport because the manufacturer, fans and consumers all wanted the same thing that F1 was providing which was bigger, more powerful and faster petrol engines. That's not the case anymore.

I also said that watching the cars go as fast as possible isn't necessarily entertaining. They coil be 5 seconds a lap faster or slower and it wouldn't make much difference to the entertainment if there's as little competition for wins and championships as there is at the moment

I also pointed out that what we have right now is Mercedes and the other cars going as fast as they can, and it's not very entertaining at all.

El_Duderino 09

Gintonious wrote: »

Well they used to change cars, so yes, I think I have a grasp on it, thanks very, much sweetheart.

That's undoubtedly a crucial element of f1 and for all the talk about what f1 should be and how we can't interfere with the pureness of the sport, this needs to be addressed because it can't go on like this.

At the moment we're all just waiting to get this season and next season over with so we can see what the new rules bring in 2022. Nobody except myself seems to be even considering that the rules don't bring any guarantee of competitiveness. Mercedes must be odds on to continue to build the best engine and they have built the best or top few chassis every year in this formula. So there's no reason to think that won't continue.

Not much use if the Red Bull Renault's aerodynamics mean it can follow the Mercedes but in practice it still finished the race 30 seconds behind.

Closeness of racing as to be a focus in the short term future.