Formula 1 2020 - General Discussion Thread (See MOD warning on first post)

quokula

With Honda pulling out surely it is time to finally admit that the hybrid Formula has been an utter failure and it's time to return to cheaper, lighter, louder, faster power units that a variety of different manufacturers would be capable of supplying.

ELM327

Yes. Time to return to tried and tested V8

El_Duderino 09

artanevilla wrote: »

Think they are committed to 2025.

I think it binds the team to F1 but the team owners can change. So they could sell the team to new owners, they just can't completely withdraw. Williams sold in the days after signing the agreement.

Wanderer78

quokula wrote: »

With Honda pulling out surely it is time to finally admit that the hybrid Formula has been an utter failure and it's time to return to cheaper, lighter, louder, faster power units that a variety of different manufacturers would be capable of supplying.

ELM327 wrote: »

Yes. Time to return to tried and tested V8

ah cant see it happening, its moved on

ELM327

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I think it binds the team to F1 but the team owners can change. So they could sell the team to new owners, they just can't completely withdraw. Williams sold in the days after signing the agreement.

But who will buy a team without a power supply deal?
I'm sure the mercedes PU was a large part of buying the williams team

ELM327

Wanderer78 wrote: »

ah cant see it happening, its moved on

I wonder if the F1 management are embarrased that the vintage f1 cars (15-20 years old) sound and look better than the current crop? Must be, as Sky f1 took an ad break during the v10 ferrari being driven in mugello

quokula

Wanderer78 wrote: »

ah cant see it happening, its moved on

No other manufacturer is willing to come anywhere near F1 in its current state. Honda are gone. Ferrari were on record a few years ago as saying their biggest mistake was agreeing to the pressure to ditch V8s. Renault's commitment to F1 has constantly teetered and wavered in recent years. You'd be hard pressed to find many fans who wouldn't like a return to more exciting racing with real engines that make your heart race. Drivers regularly say similar. So who are they keeping this hybrid formula for at this point?

Wanderer78

ELM327 wrote: »

I wonder if the F1 management are embarrased that the vintage f1 cars (15-20 years old) sound and look better than the current crop? Must be, as Sky f1 took an ad break during the v10 ferrari being driven in mugello

i think the current cars look amazing, theyve always been works of art imho, but the v8's and 10's certainly did sound amazing, its a very strange decision by honda

Wanderer78

quokula wrote: »

No other manufacturer is willing to come anywhere near F1 in its current state. Honda are gone. Ferrari were on record a few years ago as saying their biggest mistake was agreeing to the pressure to ditch V8s. Renault's commitment to F1 has constantly teetered and wavered in recent years. You'd be hard pressed to find many fans who wouldn't like a return to more exciting racing with real engines that make your heart race. Drivers regularly say similar. So who are they keeping this hybrid formula for at this point?

just cant see them reverting, could be wrong though, but they absolutely have to do something about the costs, its killing the sport, maybe the solution is a single supplier

GarIT

The exit clause in Max's previously 5 year contract is now available and Mercedes don't have a no.1 driver signed yet. Max will accept £10m to do the job Hamilton is doing for £40m. He'd probably even take Bottas' seat and salary if he could.

Wanderer78

GarIT wrote: »

The exit clause in Max's previously 5 year contract is now available and Mercedes don't have a no.1 driver signed yet.

ah not his position just yet

El_Duderino 09

ELM327 wrote: »

But who will buy a team without a power supply deal?
I'm sure the mercedes PU was a large part of buying the williams team

I don't know. I was just answering the part about red bull being free to leave, by selling the team, any time they want.

The new agreement also includes rule where any team who joins as a brand new team without buying an existing f1 team, has to pay $200m to the other teams ($20m each). So it's highly unlikely that anyone will ever enter the sport without buying a team.

El_Duderino 09

quokula wrote: »

No other manufacturer is willing to come anywhere near F1 in its current state. Honda are gone. Ferrari were on record a few years ago as saying their biggest mistake was agreeing to the pressure to ditch V8s. Renault's commitment to F1 has constantly teetered and wavered in recent years. You'd be hard pressed to find many fans who wouldn't like a return to more exciting racing with real engines that make your heart race. Drivers regularly say similar. So who are they keeping this hybrid formula for at this point?

If they go to an irrelevant, past-technology engine formula then some manufacturers might be interested for nostalgia purposes. The ICE just isn't the technology of the future like it was in the 50s-00s. F1 might choose to move away from being the pinnacle of motorsport and become a nostalgia formula. It could forge about getting new fans and just focus on it's current, aging fans, and plan to wind up in the next couple of decades.

You would be surprised at how many fans who wouldn't like a change to more exciting racing.
New change = bad. Retrograde change = good.
Backwards is the way forwards!

duploelabs

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

If they go to an irrelevant, past-technology engine formula then some manufacturers might be interested for nostalgia purposes. The ICE just isn't the technology of the future like it was in the 50s-00s. F1 might choose to move away from being the pinnacle of motorsport and become a nostalgia formula. It could forge about getting new fans and just focus on it's current, aging fans, and plan to wind up in the next couple of decades.

You would be surprised at how many fans who wouldn't like a change to more exciting racing.
New change = bad. Retrograde change = good.
Backwards is the way forwards!

Well I've made that point before with the use of venturi tunnels in the new design that was first used over thirty years ago in the lotus

flazio

Could somebody do a "Mugen" that's to say take Hondas current engine and keep developing it beyond the withdrawal. Remember what Williams were running after they broke up with Renault but before BMW turned up.

recyclebin

flazio wrote: »

Could somebody do a "Mugen" that's to say take Hondas current engine and keep developing it beyond the withdrawal. Remember what Williams were running after they broke up with Renault but before BMW turned up.

Could Red Bull buy the design and get someone to develop it?

PopePalpatine

flazio wrote: »

Could somebody do a "Mugen" that's to say take Hondas current engine and keep developing it beyond the withdrawal. Remember what Williams were running after they broke up with Renault but before BMW turned up.

Unfortunately it's not so simple any more, and even then, Williams suffered a slump while waiting for BMW's engine.

El_Duderino 09

flazio wrote: »

Could somebody do a "Mugen" that's to say take Hondas current engine and keep developing it beyond the withdrawal. Remember what Williams were running after they broke up with Renault but before BMW turned up.

That would be a good idea. If they just scrap the engine would be a terrible waste of intellectual property.

Poor red bull having to go, cap in hand, looking for new engines. If Mercedes pulls out as a team but stays on as an engine supplier, they would more inclined to supply championship rivals. Mercedes-Red Bull would be great for the championship.

billybonkers

Renault are obliged to provide engines to Red Bull now

El_Duderino 09

billybonkers wrote: »

Renault are obliged to provide engines to Red Bull now

why so? because they don't supply any customer teams?

billybonkers

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

why so?

They have the least customers

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/124056/fia-can-compel-manufacturers-to-supply-teams

El_Duderino 09

billybonkers wrote: »

They have the least customers

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/124056/fia-can-compel-manufacturers-to-supply-teams

Ah. That's a pity. More 'close, but no cigar' years ahead for Red Bull.

billybonkers

Max probably already on the phone with Toto

tipp_tipp_tipp

Wow some news. Was looking at a job in Honda's Milton Keynes facility earlier this week, was tempted. Don't think I will apply now

Will be interesting to see what happens with their indycar program. This is due to implement a hybrid engine in 2022. Will obviously be a fraction of the annual cost of the F1 program, although I'm sure the upfront costs were not cheap. Presuming they commit to that, it shows that hybrids still have relevance to OEMs, and that the decision is purely based on cost reasons.

Oh to be a fly on the wall when Christian Horner has to call Renault to enquire about engines for 2022 Hopefully netflix capture that.

For the short term, I think Renault performing well in 2022 will be important for the sport. If that goes badly they could be next to go. Their commitment has been questionable for years. Merc and Ferrari I would expect to see out the current engines to 2026. What the sport does beyond 2026 will be fascinating to see. Very difficult to know what the best direction will be.

El_Duderino 09

billybonkers wrote: »

Max probably already on the phone with Toto

Has to be. They mentioned that Max had a get out clause in his contract if the engine caused more than an X% deficit to the mercedes. I would imagine that having no engine supplier would also count as a break clause.

Forget Russell, Get max signed up for 2022!

tipp_tipp_tipp

https://twitter.com/ScarbsTech/status/1311956672152248320

Inquitus

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Has to be. They mentioned that Max had a get out clause in his contract if the engine caused more than an X% deficit to the mercedes. I would imagine that having no engine supplier would also count as a break clause.

Forget Russell, Get max signed up for 2022!

This has probably been well exceeded this season, though engine gap is obv far different than the gap in race or qually pace.

But as long as we have a competitive engine, he has to drive with us.

“The maximum gap between our engine and the top is two tenths of a second.”

Lawlesz

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

This attitude is a big part of the problem. Some people seem to think there's a particular nobility in folliwing f1, no matter how bad it gets. The word 'gimmick' couldn't get be used with a straight face. The entire sport is a gimmick. It's supposed to be enjoyed, not endured. Last year, this year and next year are pure endurance, waiting gur the rules to change and maybe there will be more conpetition.

There's a great chance Mercedes will continue to dominate from 2022 onwards. But any chance to spice things up whke Hamilton canters to the championship this year and next year (and most likely beyond that) MUST be missed.

You characterised the current state of the sport as 'boredom' but gleefully miss the opportunity to do something to alleviate your boredom.

Choosing boredom over change is very on-point for F1 fans.

You are making a number of assumptions there. I am absolutely not against change. F1 is constantly changing. I am all for spicing things up. FWIW I felt the same when Ferrari were dominating, like wise Red Bull 8 to 10 years ago, yes it can be a chore at times. But for me, it needs to be done in the correct way.

It is a competitive sport, why on earth would you reward the slowest guy by putting him at the front of the grid? Is that really where F1 wants to go in order to keep bored fans interested?

If making it interesting at all costs is the goal, then why not have the quickest guys race on 3 wheels? Wear blindfolds maybe?

It is certain that change is needed, but not just change for the sake of it, and for me that is everything reverse grid stands for.

El_Duderino 09

Lawlesz wrote: »

You are making a number of assumptions there. I am absolutely not against change. F1 is constantly changing. I am all for spicing things up. FWIW I felt the same when Ferrari were dominating, like wise Red Bull 8 to 10 years ago, yes it can be a chore at times. But for me, it needs to be done in the correct way.

It is a competitive sport, why on earth would you reward the slowest guy by putting him at the front of the grid? Is that really where F1 wants to go in order to keep bored fans interested?

If making it interesting at all costs is the goal, then why not have the quickest guys race on 3 wheels? Wear blindfolds maybe?

It is certain that change is needed, but not just change for the sake of it, and for me that is everything reverse grid stands for.

If you want to advocate to have the quickest guys race on 3 wheels or wear blindfolds, that's fine but it's not something I'm proposing. So if neither of us are advocating for it, then let's leave it aside.

The slowest driver's wouldn't be awarded points for being slow, they would only start the sprint race at the front. It would place more emphasis on aggressive, decisive overtaking which is good to see, and less emphasis on a solid no. 2 driver like Bottas who can qualify in second/third and bring the car home in second/third.

It would be a great addition to the race weekend and would be genuinely exciting to watch. But some people seem to think there's a nobility in F1 and it's shouldn't sully itself by being fun to watch. I'm reminded of the bit in the Rush movie where yer man Hesketh says he doesn't want any sponsors "No vulgar logos for cigarettes, or condoms. Just plain white. With the Union Jack." There is no nobility in sitting around waiting for F1 to become competitive in 2014 and then realising that it's going to be dominated by one team so starting the wait for 2022. Out of the last 20 years, how many seasons have been genuinely competitive? It happens every now and again but the norm is that we can predict the champions after the first race or 2.

I know F1 fans are a conservative bunch and very adverse to new change, but now they seem to have become wedded to the current formula of knowing the result unless there's a penalty or retirement.

Inquitus

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

There is no nobility in sitting around waiting for F1 to become competitive in 2014 and then realising that it's going to be dominated by one team so starting the wait for 2022. Out of the last 20 years, how many seasons have been genuinely competitive? It happens every now and again but the norm is that we can predict the champions after the first race or 2.

Ferrari have arguably had a championship winning car in 1 or 2 of the recent seasons depending on your viewpoint, but have completely effed it up all on their own, between the team and Vettel.