39 people found dead in trailer in UK

Yurt2

downcow wrote: »

I completely disagree. I see zero blame lying with the migrants. They are simply looking for opportunity
They are the definition of innocents in this case

Of course they are innocent. But, there is another side to this. Questions need to be asked of their parents (most appeared to be very young indeed) sending them to Europe in dangerous and uncertain circumstances to send money back so they can build show-houses to keep up with the neighbours.

They can't play ignorant that they weren't circumventing the laws of the target country, as well as the laws of the states they transited through.

Life in rural Vietnam is certainly more difficult than in Europe, but it's not unbearable. It's a rapidly growing economy, and while I'm sure the fruits of the growth aren't evenly distributed, there is opportunity in the big cities.

We don't live in a world where people can pitch up wherever they want and stay without regard to the laws of the land, and we're not likely to get there any time soon - particularly with the demographic boom in Africa coming down the tracks.

Some immigration is desirable, but it must be at the option of the host country, regulated, and with enforceable policy. The come one, come all attitude some have in civil society encourages people to take crazy risks and puts them in the arms of scumbag traffickers.

downcow

Yurt! wrote: »

Of course they are innocent. But, there is another side to this. Questions need to be asked of their parents (most appeared to be very young indeed) sending them to Europe in dangerous and uncertain circumstances to send money back so they can build show-houses to keep up with the neighbours.

They can't play ignorant that they weren't circumventing the laws of the target country, as well as the laws of the states they transited through.

Life in rural Vietnam is certainly more difficult than in Europe, but it's not unbearable. It's a rapidly growing economy, and while I'm sure the fruits of the growth aren't evenly distributed, there is opportunity in the big cities.

We don't live in a world where people can pitch up wherever they want and stay without regard to the laws of the land, and we're not likely to get there any time soon - particularly with the demographic boom in Africa coming down the tracks.

Some immigration is desirable, but it must be at the option of the host country, regulated, and with enforceable policy. The come one, come all attitude some have in civil society encourages people to take crazy risks and puts them in the arms of scumbag traffickers.

Disagree
The richer nations have benifited from the poorest nations for generations. Yes, that’s you and me We are in the richest 5% in the world and we won’t share it.

Yurt2

downcow wrote: »

Disagree
The richer nations have benifited from the poorest nations for generations. Yes, that’s you and me We are in the richest 5% in the world and we won’t share it.

I realize that we are in the upper percentiles of wealthy people in the world, I just don't believe for a second the problems of less-developed nations will be solved by opening our borders for whoever to settle in Europe as they please. It's a recipe for a race to the bottom and societal collapse. Our socities and economies are not feeding grounds for whoever wants to participate and turn a buck on the black market, they exist primarily to enhance and improve the lives of citizens that live there and have contributed over years. That's the social contract; fool around with it to the extent that the open borders crew want to, and we're in for a world of pain.


States like Vietnam are chronically corrupt, and there is now a burgeoning politically connected filthy-rich class just as happened in China. That's not on us. That's how the Vietnamese government has chosen to order their society.

biko

downcow wrote: »

I completely disagree. I see zero blame lying with the migrants. They are simply looking for opportunity
They are the definition of innocents in this case

I disagree, the migrants are the initiators.
With no demand, no traffickers.

recedite

downcow wrote: »

I completely disagree. I see zero blame lying with the migrants. They are simply looking for opportunity
They are the definition of innocents in this case

A burglar trying to get in your back door is "looking for opportunity". He might even cut himself breaking the glass. That doesn't make him an innocent victim.

recedite

Yurt! wrote: »

Of course they are innocent. But, there is another side to this. Questions need to be asked of their parents..

I've seen numerous interviews with the parents, and in every single case the parents had advised them not to go. Puzzled parents basically saying "we were poor, but we reared them healthy and happy".
What you're dealing with here is 20 somethings who have grown up with smartfones and been exposed to the internet and TV series like Friends etc. Also well used to interacting with wealthy western tourists.

They are not satisfied to stay in Vietnam, even though the opportunities there nowadays are vastly better than for their own parents generation.
They imagine themselves Living the American Dream in the UK.

FrancieBrady

recedite wrote: »

I've seen numerous interviews with the parents, and in every single case the parents had advised them not to go. Puzzled parents basically saying "we were poor, but we reared them healthy and happy".
What you're dealing with here is 20 somethings who have grown up with smartfones and been exposed to the internet and TV series like Friends etc. Also well used to interacting with wealthy western tourists.

They are not satisfied to stay in Vietnam, even though the opportunities there nowadays are vastly better than for their own parents generation.
They imagine themselves Living the American Dream in the UK.

It isn't hard to emphatise with them if you consider that not too long ago the perception here was 'the streets of London and New York were paved with gold'. The reality was a good deal different for most who left but the quotient that did hit gold kept the dream alive back home for long enough too.

Yurt2

recedite wrote: »

I've seen numerous interviews with the parents, and in every single case the parents had advised them not to go. Puzzled parents basically saying "we were poor, but we reared them healthy and happy".
What you're dealing with here is 20 somethings who have grown up with smartfones and been exposed to the internet and TV series like Friends etc. Also well used to interacting with wealthy western tourists.

They are not satisfied to stay in Vietnam, even though the opportunities there nowadays are vastly better than for their own parents generation.
They imagine themselves Living the American Dream in the UK.

Not to get into an arguement about it, but for instance the first named victim, Pham Thi Tra My, her parents put up the money to go.

Kids in their late teens / early 20s in rural Vietnam don't have US 30k down the back of their couch.

In most east Asian countries there is a strong tradition and expectation of filial piety; that being, you're expected to provide for your parents as you come into working age and in turn they retire.

It was noted in one report that most of the houses in the region where the dead came from were built with remitted money from Europe.

Families are most definitely involved in this, and without being a smartarse, I doubt Friends is very big in Vietnam.

recedite

I do feel sorry for them. Its worse in some ways now, because unlike previous generations, they know exactly what they are missing out on.

In this age of information and mass tourism, its in their face all day, every day. Its the same for the Africans.
There's really only two possible solutions; either open the worlds borders, or get more serious on enforcing them.

I go with the latter, because I value diversity. I don't want to see every country becoming the same. I like Ireland to be Irish, and Vietnam to be Vietnamese. In time their economy will modernise fully, and their urge to migrate will disappear.

Yurt2

recedite wrote: »

I do feel sorry for them. Its worse in some ways now, because unlike previous generations, they know exactly what they are missing out on.

In this age of information and mass tourism, its in their face all day, every day. Its the same for the Africans.
There's really only two possible solutions; either open the worlds borders, or get more serious on enforcing them.

I go with the latter, because I value diversity. I don't want to see every country becoming the same. I like Ireland to be Irish, and Vietnam to be Vietnamese. In time their economy will modernise fully, and their urge to migrate will disappear.

Much like when Ireland was an economic basket case post-independance, exporting labour is a release valve for crap governance in places like Vietnam. They become way too accustomed to it. Both at a governmental and ultimately on a community level.

Loafing Oaf

Yurt! wrote: »

I doubt Friends is very big in Vietnam.

Au contraire, been huge across East Asia since the Ross/Julie storyline:P

This thread has gone off the rails. If Vietnamese people were reading this, they'd rightly wonder what the hell are people talking about.

Ronaldinho

Deleted User wrote: »

This thread has gone off the rails. If Vietnamese people were reading this, they'd rightly wonder what the hell are people talking about.

Why so?

TheChizler

recedite wrote: »

I go with the latter, because I value diversity. I don't want to see every country becoming the same. I like Ireland to be Irish, and Vietnam to be Vietnamese. In time their economy will modernise fully, and their urge to migrate will disappear.

As long as we can keep all that diversity far away from you? :pac:

Quantum Erasure

8 more arrested in Vietnam,

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-essex-50286696

Eight suspects have been held in Vietnam after 39 people were found dead in a lorry in Essex.
The suspects are being held in relation to people smuggling offences, the director of police in the Nghe An province in north-central Vietnam said.
Two people were arrested in the Ha Tinh province of Vietnam last week.

says there was a mass held for the victims and their families over the weekend, many of whom would be catholic

DeconSheridan

Awful for the families, human trafficking is big business and many in positions of authority are allegedly on the take as reported by some media documentaries. Its sad that people profit from other peoples misery by promising false hopes and dreams. Why anyone would move to the UK is beyond me.

1641

biko wrote: »

I disagree, the migrants are the initiators.
With no demand, no traffickers.

So those "demanding" rock bottom prices in our shops for disposable clothes and shoes are responsible for unauthorised long-hour child labour factories in the far east? No demand, no child labour exploitation.


Drug users and addicts are responsible for the Kinahans and similar violent drug gangs? No demand, no drug supply.


Or are all these chains much more complicated than this? Do drug gangs target vulnerable youth to lure them into drugs so that they can profit from them? Do cheap clothes (etc) suppliers conceal (or conveniently ignore) the dirty origin of many of their products? Do traffickers in remote and/or impoverished third world countries lure the desperate and unsuspecting with promises of great riches in western countries (with some convenient testimonials, etc) ?
Sure, the consumer, the drug user, the migrant, etc. have some role in the respective areas. But they are not primarily responsible, in my opinion.

downcow

1641 wrote: »

So those "demanding" rock bottom prices in our shops for disposable clothes and shoes are responsible for unauthorised long-hour child labour factories in the far east? No demand, no child labour exploitation.


Drug users and addicts are responsible for the Kinahans and similar violent drug gangs? No demand, no drug supply.


Or are all these chains much more complicated than this? Do drug gangs target vulnerable youth to lure them into drugs so that they can profit from them? Do cheap clothes (etc) suppliers conceal (or conveniently ignore) the dirty origin of many of their products? Do traffickers in remote and/or impoverished third world countries lure the desperate and unsuspecting with promises of great riches in western countries (with some convenient testimonials, etc) ?
Sure, the consumer, the drug user, the migrant, etc. have some role in the respective areas. But they are not primarily responsible, in my opinion.

Excellent post

recedite

1641 wrote: »

Drug users and addicts are responsible for the Kinahans and similar violent drug gangs? No demand, no drug supply.

Or are all these chains much more complicated than this? Do drug gangs target vulnerable youth to lure them into drugs so that they can profit from them?

Neither is innocent, that's all I'm saying.
The people providing an illegal service, and the people paying for it. The industry needs both, to keep on going.

recedite

TheChizler wrote: »

As long as we can keep all that diversity far away from you? :pac:

I like to visit other places and cultures.
Have you ever stopped to think about what the word diverse actually means?
The leftist open border fantasy which imagines all nations and cultures mixing together would eliminate the world's natural diversity, replacing it ultimately with a boring sameness, everywhere.

Masteryos

1641 wrote: »

So those "demanding" rock bottom prices in our shops for disposable clothes and shoes are responsible for unauthorised long-hour child labour factories in the far east? No demand, no child labour exploitation.


Drug users and addicts are responsible for the Kinahans and similar violent drug gangs? No demand, no drug supply.

In a sense yes, when the demand for "rock bottom prices" tends to go in hand with what is actually required to get things at low prices. It's cheaper to buy clothing that was made in a sweat shop than it would be if it was made anywhere else, people just pretend to ignore that until something happens that forces people to acknowledge it, demand (which is say loosely since it usually doesn't come with an acceptance of the price of products changing) the big companies change that and they'll act like they do until it is forgotten about.

Part of the problem of these issues is that while there are people ready to enable these things, there are people demanding the goods in the first place. Does the local drug addict care if someone died in a gang feud over territory to sell the drug?I don't think they really care.

The real issue is trying to have a big enough impact which doesn't go away to get things to change. Unless people come up with a cheap way to make clothes that don't involve child labour things really aren't going to change because the average person in the end of the day might act outraged but have their own things going on in their life and will quickly forgot about those things, especially if it means they don't have to pay more for goods.

nc6000

Here's another one in the news this morning

https://twitter.com/rtenews/status/1192387000906735617

Danzy

One that also has to he squared is why so many on the Left are for a more open approach to migration and asylum.

There seems to be no upper limits.

How such an extreme free market position can be squared with anything left wing is unfathomable.

Even Thatcher didn't push it that far.

Cordell

Masteryos wrote: »

Unless people come up with a cheap way to make clothes that don't involve child labour

The sad reality is that it will change their lives for the worse.

suicide_circus

Irishman arrested. Never knew human trafficking was such a thriving cottage industry in Ireland!

tayto lover

suicide_circus wrote: »

Irishman arrested. Never knew human trafficking was such a thriving cottage industry in Ireland!

Believe it’s about €2K a head for the driver.
Heard this from a continental lorry driver.
15 passengers = €30K.
39 = €78K.

FrancieBrady

suicide_circus wrote: »

Irishman arrested. Never knew human trafficking was such a thriving cottage industry in Ireland!

With the reputed numbers getting in it has to be a 'cottage industry' everywhere.

BENDYBINN

FrancieBrady wrote: »

With the reputed numbers getting in it has to be a 'cottage industry' everywhere.

Lorries going up in price I’d say..

BENDYBINN

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Lorries going up in price I’d say..

May be a few going cheap in Monaghan soon https://www.rte.ie/news/crime/2019/1107/1089297-criminal-assets-bureau/

JP Liz V1

tayto lover wrote: »

Believe it’s about €2K a head for the driver.
Heard this from a continental lorry driver.
15 passengers = €30K.
39 = €78K.

The port customs officiers also must be getting a cut that some many get in unchecked