Former Former wrote: » Joe "reveals reason Toner was omitted"https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/joe-schmidt-reveals-reason-for-omitting-toner-in-new-book-1.4089882?mode=amp Joe is great etc etc but why he feels the need to come up with such flimsy nonsense is beyond me. Absolute bollocks that stands up to zero scrutiny.
awec wrote: » People keep talking as if the other 3 provinces current production standards is down to a lack of effort or poor decisions. Nobody seems willing to accept that it's just as likely to be down to a lack of resources and a lack of cash.So Munster had 1 Munster-born player under 30 in their HEC squad? What does that tell us? All it says is that Munster (like Ulster), need to rely on imports to compete at european level. When it comes to the Pro14, the standard is pretty low, and Munster can afford to play more of their own guys. Yea, in hindsight Munster could have won at the weekend with a Pro14-standard team, but they weren't to know in advance that Ospreys would be without all their good players. This "you should be doing better" is just so lazy. For all we know, the team that Munster built to win the HEC over a decade go was an exceptional, one off stroke of luck, and what we have today is closer to normality.
awec wrote: » People keep talking as if the other 3 provinces current production standards is down to a lack of effort or poor decisions. Nobody seems willing to accept that it's just as likely to be down to a lack of resources and a lack of cash. So Munster had 1 Munster-born player under 30 in their HEC squad? What does that tell us? All it says is that Munster (like Ulster), need to rely on imports to compete at european level. When it comes to the Pro14, the standard is pretty low, and Munster can afford to play more of their own guys. Yea, in hindsight Munster could have won at the weekend with a Pro14-standard team, but they weren't to know in advance that Ospreys would be without all their good players. This "you should be doing better" is just so lazy. For all we know, the team that Munster built to win the HEC over a decade go was an exceptional, one off stroke of luck, and what we have today is closer to normality.
awec wrote: » Yea I read that this morning, total bollocks from Schmidt. Even if he had picked up that ban he would have been back in the middle of the pool.
Former Former wrote: » Or just wait another day before you announce the squad and then you'd know for sure. It really looks like Toner was never really in contention.
Former Former wrote: » It's equally lazy to say that sure we can't compete with Leinster and sure we'll never repeat the golden era of the 2000s, so whatever we're doing is grand. Having very few younger native guys in your XV tells us two things : 1. The native guys who are there are getting older and have limited lifespan remaining. 2. We're too reliant on other provinces and foreign imports. So if you look 2-3 years down the road to when Murray, Kilcoyne and POM have run out of road, and we aren't seeing as many imports because of the residency change to 5 years, what happens? There's a very finite number of guys with Irish grannies so we need younger guys to come through... And it just isn't happening, and it hasn't happened for a long time. I have no idea what the solution is, but it's a very real problem.
awec wrote: » To be fair though that's not really what I'm saying. I don't think things are grand, far from it. I do not believe the current setup and system allows for all 4 provinces to build competitive sides. I reckon the only way Munster or Ulster or Connacht are going to build teams that can compete for trophies regularly is by pumping in money. But this isn't going to happen. This is one of the big problems with having multiple teams owned by the same entity. Can you really say that the IRFU, for example, are doing everything they can to make Munster as good as they can possibly be? Of course not, they can't, because they have to keep Leinster at their current level, they have to also fund Ulster, they have to fund Connacht. Who decides what the priority is for the IRFU? Who decides who gets what money? The whole process is opaque and mysterious, there is pretty much no scrutiny, but this is by design rather than by coincidence. This is precisely why most sports do not allow this situation to arise, it removes sporting integrity.
thomond2006 wrote: » Munster have what appears to be a serious set of youngsters that could be in the first choice 23 in the next few years. Hopefully the drought has ended.
Jump_In_Jack wrote: » Would a draft system be worth bringing into the IRFU funding model? Let's say each year there are 25 players coming out of the Irish U20's setup, is there a way to incentivise those players to join a draft system? Say each province gets to pick one by one until all the players are drafted, and then it's up to the provinces if they need to trade them. I don't follow NFL but I imagine there is a system there that we could look at for ideas perhaps. Anyone familiar with that system that could offer pros and cons bringing something like that into Irish rugby?
molloyjh wrote: » Yeah, cos the lazy approach is the one that uses some form of evidence basis around current vs past numbers, population sizes etc rather than the "it is what is so maybe that's all it can be" approach here. Sure. You seem intent on things being either-or. Black or white. As I said above, it is entirely reasonable to expect that the other provinces development will always remain behind that of Leinster. But unless you can actually present a case whereby you can show that they shouldn't be doing better then I'd suggest you stop calling others lazy. You're hardly a shining example of hard working, case building investigative opinion building there. To start, there have been clear issues in Munster for example around the split between Cork and Limerick that are (a) geographical/infrastructural in nature that they cant do anything about and (b) political in nature that they can do something about. The development of Thomond Park seems to have been a financial error (at best) that is proving difficult for them to now deal with. But if they felt the money was there for that then how can it not have been there for player development? I mean counter some points at least.
Yeah_Right wrote: » NZ have something similar to the draft. Each Super Rugby franchise gets to name a certain number of "protected" players. It used to be 20 but its more now. After that any franchise can try to recruit any other player. Players don't have to move to the team that selected them but if they don't and their local side doesn't pick them in the main squad, they are stuck on a development contract. Lots of All Blacks don't play for their home franchise. It works pretty well* and there is no reason it can't work here if people are willing to take their provincial blinkers off. *Except for the Blues. It screws the Blues over completely :mad::mad:
typhoony wrote: » that's a schitty comment from Schmidt, let's just take a second to ponder if Toner would have made a difference in the World cup.... "On 31 minutes a Rory Best overthrow at the halfway line lands at the hands of the Japanese hooker Shota Horie, who launches a Japanese attack into the Irish 22." "On 50 minutes Ireland earn an attacking lineout. It’s still 9-12. This time it’s an under throw from the Irish hooker and another opportunity slips by Ireland." so you could make an argument that the 2 mistakes would have happened even if Toner was there, but I don't buy that, it's a completely different different throw-in for Toner. He catches both as Rory launces them High.
molloyjh wrote: » Yeah, cos the lazy approach is the one that uses some form of evidence basis around current vs past numbers, population sizes etc rather than the "it is what is so maybe that's all it can be" approach here. Sure. You seem intent on things being either-or. Black or white. As I said above, it is entirely reasonable to expect that the other provinces development will always remain behind that of Leinster. But unless you can actually present a case whereby you can show that they shouldn't be doing better then I'd suggest you stop calling others lazy. You're hardly a shining example of hard working, case building investigative opinion building there.
To start, there have been clear issues in Munster for example around the split between Cork and Limerick that are (a) geographical/infrastructural in nature that they cant do anything about and (b) political in nature that they can do something about. The development of Thomond Park seems to have been a financial error (at best) that is proving difficult for them to now deal with. But if they felt the money was there for that then how can it not have been there for player development?
Wegians89 wrote: » Think that’s kind of what nucifora is trying to do, it’s just taking a while to convince players that moving around is best for their career. They were probably hoping carbery would’ve been the shinning light to show the positives of it but his Munster career has been fairly stop start with the injuries. You’ve got other guys then like Dooley and Connors who have supposedly turned down Connacht in the past because being 3rd/4th choice in Leinster, living in dublin is still more attractive than moving west. One suggestion could be a centralized academy where each province would have the first pick of like 5 local lads each year and then the rest of the academy is made up by a draft from the rest? Practically wouldn’t work with young lads needing to travel a lot.
Richie_Rich89 wrote: » .....Leinster need to improve when it comes to bringing through homegrown talent.
sydthebeat wrote: » the shark has been jumped lads....
The Lost Sheep wrote: » I would call thomond a mistake in timing. Not anything else. The size of stadium is fine for biggest games and with financial downturn paying back took much longer than anticipated. Very hard to say you can do something about the political issues that exist in Munster rugby. Similar issues exist in leinster between clubs The issue with thomond is more timing of it and financial downturn which affected paying back loans and that had knock on effect on rest of spending in the provinces rugby budget
Richie_Rich89 wrote: » Anyone who doesn't see that there's room for improvement in ..
sydthebeat wrote: » hang on now richie .... you didnt say that you said leinster NEED to improve. theres a hell of s difference between the two. of course theres room for improvement... every company in the world strives to improve, and im sure leinster academy are no different. however, in a season where there are 27 leinster born players in the senior squads of the other 3 provinces... and there are 37 leinster born players in the 46 man senior squad.... then the answer is an emphatic NO that leinster do not NEED to improve in their player development... and lumping them in with being equal to munster in the need to develop is illogic in the extreme.
thomond2006 wrote: » Name one young player that Munster have let go in the last five years that has gone on to do anything of note. Ultan Dillane is probably the only talent to slip through the net and he was only sub academy I believe. The idea that Munster held anyone back is nonsense. The players simply weren't there and that's a different question.
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