“Ireland has a rape culture”

Since she said that Ireland has a rape culture, shouldn't the focus be on women, as rapists, too? Unless she's willing to prove that women don't engage in rape of other women, children, and men?

She (and others) should be called on her sexism. The issue of rape should be addressed (which it is) but this isn't about rape. This is about making men the enemy.

El_Duderino 09

Calhoun wrote: »

Well if you go around implying that half the population are rapists you wont really change anything other than build opposition. It draws a line of us versus them between men and women which isn't the wisest position to be in.

I don't think I've been accused of being a rapist. Do you feel you've been accused of being a rapist?

Neither do I feel I'm against women or women are against me. Do you feel you're against women or women are against you?

Reviews and Books Galore

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I don't think I've been accused of being a rapist. Do you feel you've been accused of being a rapist?

Neither do I feel I'm against women or women are against me. Do you feel you're against women or women are against you?

I'm ignoring the last sentence as it's silly and very leading, but I think every man has been accused on the micro or macro of being a rapist/mysognist/creepy so on and so forth. Not necessarily directly, but definetly in regars to actions and opinions. e.g. Watching porn makes rapists, manspreading makes rapists, sexist jokes, so on and so forth.



I wouldn't say women are against men, but there is a definite removing the danger vibe going on in recent years.

El_Duderino 09

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

I'm ignoring the last sentence as it's silly and very leading, but I think every man has been accused on the micro or macro of being a rapist/mysognist/creepy so on and so forth. Not necessarily directly, but definetly in regars to actions and opinions. e.g. Watching porn makes rapists, manspreading makes rapists, sexist jokes, so on and so forth.



I wouldn't say women are against men, but there is a definite removing the danger vibe going on in recent years.

Those things were said by the poster I quoted. Funny that you’d only take exception when I said it, ain’t it?

You you don’t feel you’ve been accused of being a rapists but also feel all men (presumably including yourself) have been accused of being rapists.

Not a very clear opinion. Could you clarify it at all or does it only work when it’s vague and sweeping?

Reviews and Books Galore

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Those things were said by the poster I quoted. Funny that you’d only take exception when I said it, ain’t it?

You you don’t feel you’ve been accused of being a rapists but also feel all men (presumably including yourself) have been accused of being rapists.

Not a very clear opinion. Could you clarify it at all or does it only work when it’s vague and sweeping?

Wel, yeah? An accusation can be circumspect or against a group rather than a specific individual. If I said all black people were rapists, does it mean I'm accusing Ali of being a rapist?

El_Duderino 09

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

Wel, yeah? An accusation can be circumspect or against a group rather than a specific individual. If I said all black people were rapists, does it mean I'm accusing Ali of being a rapist?

If Ali is a black man, then yes. Obvs. If you mean that some black men are rapists, then you should say so. Because some black men are rapists. Some men are rapists too. Some people embezzle money, some people murder. It’s hardly controversial if that’s all it means.

Honestly I think the destination is nonsense that you didn’t intend to be scrutinised.

El_Duderino 09

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure nobody in this thread has said "teach men not to rape" or invoked that sentiment.

That's actually exactly what Louise O'Neill has said in the past

Calhoun

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

I'm ignoring the last sentence as it's silly and very leading, but I think every man has been accused on the micro or macro of being a rapist/mysognist/creepy so on and so forth. Not necessarily directly, but definetly in regars to actions and opinions. e.g. Watching porn makes rapists, manspreading makes rapists, sexist jokes, so on and so forth.



I wouldn't say women are against men, but there is a definite removing the danger vibe going on in recent years.

Smart one that is normally how this one goes, as someone else has pointed out either earlier in this thread or another there is no point arguing with someone who's only goal is to soap box from their position they hold because they feel they have moral authority. Any question is normally a lead in so you can be shown how morally corrupt you are.

El_Duderino 09

Deleted User wrote: »

That's actually exactly what Louise O'Neill has said in the past

Has she? Genuine question.

If you could link to her saying that it would be interesting. cheers.

El_Duderino 09

Calhoun wrote: »

Smart one that is normally how this one goes, as someone else has pointed out either earlier in this thread or another there is no point arguing with someone who's only goal is to soap box from their position they hold because they feel they have moral authority. Any question is normally a lead in so you can be shown how morally corrupt you are.

Yeah. But there's nothing wrong with being asked to explain the things you've actually said. And it might appear clever to waive away any further discussion as unnecessary, but really it shows a fear that the points won't stand up to scrutiny.

El_Duderino 09

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Has she? Genuine question.

If you could link to her saying that it would be interesting. cheers.

It was in her documentary "Asking For It" that was on RTE. It's not on the RTE player anymore. She said it in a voice over part between scenes. It was something along the lines of "We need to teach our young boys not to rape". I actually think that doc is largely pretty good. She just comes out with some incendiary clangers now and then that undermine the whole message.

Found a tweet quoting it

https://twitter.com/ciarannestor/status/793580540117016576

El_Duderino 09

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It was in her documentary "Asking For It" that was on RTE. It's not on the RTE player anymore. She said it in a voice over part between scenes. It was something along the lines of "We need to teach our young boys not to rape". I actually think that doc is largely pretty good. She just comes out with some incendiary clangers now and then that undermine the whole message.

Found a tweet quoting it

https://twitter.com/ciarannestor/status/793580540117016576

I didn’t see that documentary so I’ll take your word for it. I disagree with her.

Either way, as I said in my post you quoted, nobody in this thread has said we should “teach men not to rape”.

Reviews and Books Galore

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah. But there's nothing wrong with being asked to explain the things you've actually said. And it might appear clever to waive away any further discussion as unnecessary, but really it shows a fear that the points won't stand up to scrutiny.

You are right. I am afriad, and now demasculated

El_Duderino 09

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

You are right. I am afriad, and now demasculated

Chin up. It would be worse if you were emasculated. 😜

But you could always have a pop at answering the question.

silverharp

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Has she? Genuine question.

If you could link to her saying that it would be interesting. cheers.

I havnt read back but I assume this is the question

http://www.universitytimes.ie/2016/02/louise-oneill-on-fortifying-feminism-through-fiction/

Such societal imbalance is of course unacceptable, but not surprising considering how O’Neill reminds us that “rape prevention programmes have been so heavily focused upon teaching women to avoid being raped rather than teaching men not to rape”.

El_Duderino 09

silverharp wrote: »

I havnt read back but I assume this is the question

http://www.universitytimes.ie/2016/02/louise-oneill-on-fortifying-feminism-through-fiction/

Yeah. Sure. I took the last poster's word for it that LON has said it. And as I said, I don't agree with her.

I still don't think anyone in this thread has said "teach men not to rape", have they?

SoupMonster

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah. Sure. I took the last poster's word for it that LON has said it. And as I said, I don't agree with her.

I still don't think anyone in this thread has said "teach men not to rape", have they?

If they had, what's the problem?

We teach men not to kill, not to steal, not to drive cars when they are drunk, not to clothesline tackle when playing rugby,... the list goes on and on, but for some reason we shouldn't teach them not to rape?

SoupMonster

SoupMonster wrote: »

If they had, what's the problem?

We teach men not to kill, not to steal, not to drive cars when they are drunk, not to clothesline tackle when playing rugby,... the list goes on and on, but for some reason we shouldn't teach them not to rape?

The issue is its start from a position that assumes men are rapists, which most men adamantly deny.


Were you taught not to kill?

SoupMonster

SoupMonster wrote: »

If they had, what's the problem?

We teach men not to kill, not to steal, not to drive cars when they are drunk, not to clothesline tackle when playing rugby,... the list goes on and on, but for some reason we shouldn't teach them not to rape?

Because its insulting to every man in the land to suggest that this needs to be taught. There is a miniscule percentage of men who carry out this sort of attack, and the vast, vast, VAST majority of them already know that it is not okay behaviour. But they do it anyway. Teaching consent classes will not change their behaviour.

It is insulting and degrading in the exteme to say "you lot need to be told not to rape women". Imagine the fcuking uproar if there was a campaign to teach women not to murder their children next time something like this happens over here?

SoupMonster

SoupMonster wrote: »

If they had, what's the problem?

We teach men not to kill, not to steal, not to drive cars when they are drunk, not to clothesline tackle when playing rugby,... the list goes on and on, but for some reason we shouldn't teach them not to rape?

I was never taught not to kill or steal. Ethics, good parenting, and common sense regarding the punishments of the law were enough. The rules are there for all to see, and the vast majority of people abide by them.

The difference here is the presumption that men will rape, and therefore, they need to be taught not to do it. There is no equal presumption for killing, stealing, or any other aspect in society. For either Gender.

suicide_circus

the idea that the state or whatever meddling bureaucracy you care to name is going to teach people not to rape is laughable

Why isn't the focus on women being more careful? Surely that's logically more likely to be successful...

SoupMonster

SoupMonster wrote: »

If they had, what's the problem?

We teach men not to kill, not to steal, not to drive cars when they are drunk, not to clothesline tackle when playing rugby,... the list goes on and on, but for some reason we shouldn't teach them not to rape?

We should also teach women not to get pregnant and keep their legs together instead of aborting children but somehow I don't think you would be onboard with that one.

silverharp

SoupMonster wrote: »

If they had, what's the problem?

We teach men not to kill, not to steal, not to drive cars when they are drunk, not to clothesline tackle when playing rugby,... the list goes on and on, but for some reason we shouldn't teach them not to rape?

Louise obviously isn't a poster here then, so there is that

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

We should also teach women not to get pregnant and keep their legs together instead of aborting children but somehow I don't think you would be onboard with that one.

Why assume that? I do think we should bring back "home economics" classes in schools. Teach students to be more careful with finances/budgeting, Sex ed, having children, etc.

El_Duderino 09

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I was never taught not to kill or steal. Ethics, good parenting, and common sense regarding the punishments of the law were enough. The rules are there for all to see, and the vast majority of people abide by them.

The difference here is the presumption that men will rape, and therefore, they need to be taught not to do it. There is no equal presumption for killing, stealing, or any other aspect in society. For either Gender.

Let's remember it's one person who is in a tiny minority who phrases it that way. Do you think she actually presumes men will rape? Or are you inferring what she might think?

I any case, you said you relied on being taught good ethics, good parenting and common sense.

Do you think everyone has good ethics?
Do you think all parents are good parents?
Do you think everyone has good common sense?

Reviews and Books Galore

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Let's remember it's one person who is in a tiny minority who phrases it that way. Do you think she actually presumes men will rape? Or are you inferring what she might think?

I any case, you said you relied on being taught good ethics, good parenting and common sense.

Do you think everyone has good ethics?
Do you think all parents are good parents?
Do you think everyone has good common sense?

It is not in anyway a tiny minority. You hear it in the news, you see it on college campuses and you hear it on the radio. It is most definetly a strong movement in society at the moment to 'teach men not to rape'.

El_Duderino 09

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Why isn't the focus on women being more careful? Surely that's logically more likely to be successful...

Wouldn’t you consider that to assume all women are potential rape victims? Wouldn't you assume that approach is making all men out to be potential rapists?

1800_Ladladlad

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

It is not in anyway a tiny minority. You hear it in the news, you see it on college campuses and you hear it on the radio. It is most definetly a strong movement in society at the moment to 'teach men not to rape'.

still waiting for you to answer the question that I put to you twice now.

Reviews and Books Galore

1800_Ladladlad wrote: »

still waiting for you to answer the question that I put to you twice now.

You asked me a question?