43 -63% of Africans in Ireland are unemployed

c montgomery

These stats are clearly wrong. I'm fortunate enough to be friends with at least 20 South Africans and all of them are employed.

recedite

PostWoke wrote: »

Any source on this? Not doubting you just have not come across anything to suggest that.

I also think we're a far cry, thank feck, from the insane situation in the UK, London specifically.

London is a couple of generations ahead of us.
Balbriggan has developed its own gang culture already, and they are now using the train line to spread chaos between there and Dublin city.

In Clontarf they have had a lot of trouble being robbed by "youths from outside the area". RTE aren't going to report this stuff, and the local newspapers can only use euphemisms such as "youths from outside the area" otherwise they will be accused of stirring up racism.
https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/gangs-terrorised-malahide-portmarnock-believed-15513993
What is it about Balbriggan, formerly a quiet seaside town?
Think about it, all these places are in a direct line between Dublin and Mosney. Mosney holiday camp is what Plymouth Rock in the USA is for white Americans, the landing place of the first "founding fathers".

Sleeper12

Shefwedfan wrote:

Very few will land back with anything close to 200k

I'm agreeing with you. Problem some posters dig a hole for themselves. Instead of admitting they made a silly statement they just dig bigger holes.

A Hugh amount of people will come back with almost nothing after 10 years. It does not matter what country you move to. You arrive with nothing & it takes awhile to get on your feet. By then you meet a girl/boy & pop out two or three kids. You need to be on a massive wage to save 200k at that stage of your life and bringing up a young family.

recedite

c montgomery wrote: »

These stats are clearly wrong. I'm fortunate enough to be friends with at least 20 South Africans and all of them are employed.

There's two types of South Africans in this country; those who are discriminated against there, and those who claim asylum and social welfare here.

Sleeper12

Mongfinder General wrote:

"Every penny paid out on the dole gets spent within days. It gets clawed back very quickly in vat and income tax"

When you spend the money there is VAT on the goods & services you buy & income tax is paid by the company providing the goods & services on the wages paid. When people flee the country less goods & services are purchased & produced. More people lose their jobs.

I never claimed that tax & vat is charged on the dole. You know that & everyone reading knows that. I said what I said. "Every penny paid out on the dole gets spent within days. It gets clawed back very quickly in vat and income tax" and this statement is a fact.

Donald Trump

Sleeper12 wrote: »

When you spend the money there is VAT on the goods & services you buy & income tax is paid by the company providing the goods & services on the wages paid. When people flee the country less goods & services are purchased & produced. More people lose their jobs.

I never claimed that tax & vat is charged on the dole. You know that & everyone reading knows that. I said what I said. "Every penny paid out on the dole gets spent within days. It gets clawed back very quickly in vat and income tax" and this statement is a fact.

Dude, you're saying that but at the same time you are saying the dole is too high and refer to holidays to Florida. How are the people off on their holliers to Florida spending that money in Athlone? Are they filling their suitcases with enough hang sangwiches to keep them going for the two weeks before departing?


Which is it? Is it too high or is it at a level that people are living hand-to-mouth and spending it all back into the economy when it comes in? Do you think it is at just the right level, too high, or too low. Because your arguments are all over the shop and contradictory

Sleeper12

recedite wrote:

There's two types of South Africans in this country; those who are discriminated against there, and those who claim asylum and social welfare here.

The lad that delivered my pizza last night was neither one of the above.

You do realise that we have had small numbers of African immigrants coming to Ireland since the 1800s? The asylum seekers is a new thing. There are thousands of African people living here that were never asylum seekers. We had a steady flow of African imagination (not asylum seekers) right throughout the 80s, 90 and into the 0s.

Sleeper12

Donald Trump wrote:

Which is it? Is it too high or is it at a level that people are living hand-to-mouth and spending it all back into the economy when it comes in? Do you think it is at just the right level, too high, or too low. Because your arguments are all over the shop and contradictory

Even the ones going to florida for 10 days a year are spending money here the other 355 days of the year. The people who fled the country don't spend any money here. You understand this right? People living in the country spend money in the country. People not in the country don't spend money in the country. I can't make it any more simple for you. In Ireland spend money in Ireland =good. Out of Ireland & not spending money in Ireland =bad.

Keep on digging your hole my friend. Hey if you go much deeper you might meet some Irish in Australia getting their 200k ready to bring back!

Donald Trump

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I'm agreeing with you. Problem some posters dig a hole for themselves. Instead of admitting they made a silly statement they just dig bigger holes.

A Hugh amount of people will come back with almost nothing after 10 years. It does not matter what country you move to. You arrive with nothing & it takes awhile to get on your feet. By then you meet a girl/boy & pop out two or three kids. You need to be on a massive wage to save 200k at that stage of your life and bringing up a young family.

Seriously? 200k is unbelievable to you?


Person goes abroad. Presumably they'll pick a country where they can earn a decent wage. They have the intention of coming back after 10 years. Give them two years to find their feet in terms of renting. Then they can buy a house or apartment. Rent out a room or two to help them accelerate the repayments. After 8 years they sell up and come home with the equity in their house, their savings and their foreign private pension cashed out.....what do you think they might have saved? A few hundred Euro?



(It's not all gravy though either. It'll cost them a small chunk of that to buy back their stamps for the time they missed for example....but that is still money coming from outside and being injected into the economy....which is magnitudes more valuable than recirculating that is done by spending dole down the bookies.)





Sure papers are full of articles by teachers who feck off to Dubai for a year or two and come back and have a large deposit saved up for a house.

Donald Trump

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Even the ones going to florida for 10 days a year are spending money here the other 355 days of the year. The people who fled the country don't spend any money here. You understand this right? People living in the country spend money in the country. People not in the country don't spend money in the country. I can't make it any more simple for you. In Ireland spend money in Ireland =good. Out of Ireland & not spending money in Ireland =bad.

Keep on digging your hole my friend. Hey if you go much deeper you might meet some Irish in Australia getting their 200k ready to bring back!

You forgot to answer the question. Is the level of dole too high, just right or two low? The "argument" which you have incorrectly seized upon and misapplied (that dole money is spent quickly in local businesses) is that used by proponents of increasing the dole. But you appeared to also think it is too high. I'm honestly wondering what your position on it is.

Sleeper12

Donald Trump wrote:

Seriously? 200k is unbelievable to you?

No its not. For a tiny proportion of the 10s of thousands of people that left the country it is believable. Some might even have more. There will be more returning with little or no money than people returning with hundreds of thousands. Many returning will cost us money. Their US qualification might not be recognised here and the state may need to train them before they can contribute.

A handful of people returning to Ireland with money after 10 years when we are out of the recession and back at almost full employment doesn't compare to the 10s of thousands staying here for the 10 years. Even if two of these years they were all on the dole Ireland would have been better off with them here. This is a fact. There was a time many decades ago that we thought people leaving the country in recession was a good thing but we now know that its far better that they stay. People living in Ireland lost their jobs 10 years ago as a direct result of the 10s of thousands leaving.

It is far better for the local economy to have these stay in Ireland on the dole than for them to leave for 10 years only returning for the good times.

Sleeper12

Donald Trump wrote:

You forgot to answer the question. Is the level of dole too high, just right or two low? The "argument" which you have incorrectly seized upon and misapplied (that dole money is spent quickly in local businesses) is that used by proponents of increasing the dole. But you appeared to also think it is too high. I'm honestly wondering what your position on it is.

I thought I was quite clear. The level of all out payments dole, children's allowance, state pension, public sector etc is all way too high. It's been too high for 15 years or more. A country with out debt levels should be paying down the debt & not having some of the best paid state pension & dole in the world. As Charlie said long ago we are living beyond our means.

Let's be clear here. 10,000 people staying in Ireland on a reduced dole of 140/150 per week is still far better for the economy than the 10,000 leaving the country.

Donald Trump

Sleeper12 wrote: »

No its not. For a tiny proportion of the 10s of thousands of people that left the country it is believable. Some might even have more. There will be more returning with little or no money than people returning with hundreds of thousands. Many returning will cost us money. Their US qualification might not be recognised here and the state may need to train them before they can contribute.

A handful of people returning to Ireland with money after 10 years when we are out of the recession and back at almost full employment doesn't compare to the 10s of thousands staying here for the 10 years. Even if two of these years they were all on the dole Ireland would have been better off with them here. This is a fact. There was a time many decades ago that we thought people leaving the country in recession was a good thing but we now know that its far better that they stay. People living in Ireland lost their jobs 10 years ago as a direct result of the 10s of thousands leaving.

It is far better for the local economy to have these stay in Ireland on the dole than for them to leave for 10 years only returning for the good times.

Lets take a conservative estimate. We'll say mandatory 5% contribution towards a pension by employer and 5% contribution by employee. I use conservative figures because if I use a more likely figure like 8%+12% you'll have a story about your friend's cousin's aunt's brother-in-law who worked for 10 years in Zimbabwe and didn't get a pension.


So working on that 10% per year for 10 years, then the person has one years salary in their pension pot that will be cashed out and brought home.




Lets also say that the person wasn't being "patriotic" towards their temporarily adopted home and didn't spend all their money down the local pub and bookies. Lets say they manged to save 10%. That's another years salary in the bank.


And suppose they bought a house and put another 10% of their wages towards capital repayments. They then sell that house and pay off the mortgage and back the equity....hardly unbelievable to have another years wages in cash.


Then just before they leave, they sell off their car.



So on the conservative examples above, you're getting fairly close to 200k.



What would your figure for all the above come to?





And I assure you the above is conservative. Exceptions include piss heads who go off to Australia and drink and arse about causing trouble. They're not the people you want to come back anyway. Plenty go away to places other than Australia btw. People who go to the US or Canada tend to do very well for example.

Donald Trump

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I thought I was quite clear. The level of all out payments dole, children's allowance, state pension, public sector etc is all way too high. It's been too high for 15 years or more. A country with out debt levels should be paying down the debt & not having some of the best paid state pension & dole in the world. As Charlie said long ago we are living beyond our means.

Let's be clear here. 10,000 people staying in Ireland on a reduced dole of 140/150 per week is still far better for the economy than the 10,000 leaving the country.

Ok, but your argument about the dole being good for the local economy is used by proponents of increasing the dole. You are aware of that?



You can surely understand the contradiction in your positions?

Mr. teddywinkles

Sleeper12 wrote: »

No its not. For a tiny proportion of the 10s of thousands of people that left the country it is believable. Some might even have more. There will be more returning with little or no money than people returning with hundreds of thousands. Many returning will cost us money. Their US qualification might not be recognised here and the state may need to train them before they can contribute.

A handful of people returning to Ireland with money after 10 years when we are out of the recession and back at almost full employment doesn't compare to the 10s of thousands staying here for the 10 years. Even if two of these years they were all on the dole Ireland would have been better off with them here. This is a fact. There was a time many decades ago that we thought people leaving the country in recession was a good thing but we now know that its far better that they stay. People living in Ireland lost their jobs 10 years ago as a direct result of the 10s of thousands leaving.

It is far better for the local economy to have these stay in Ireland on the dole than for them to leave for 10 years only returning for the good times.

Wasn't the government basically telling people to go abroad? Chasing people on these work schemes doing 40 hr weeks that just paid the dole anyways

Yamanoto

Sleeper12 wrote: »

We need to import people from other countries to work here. There aren't enough Irish people to pay my pension when I retire. I welcome immigrants. The more the merrier if you ask me. I want to as well paid in my retirement and OAPs are today.

For the import model to work from a pensions perspective, you'd end up requiring new arrivals in such large numbers, that population strain would render it completely counter-productive.

This may come as news to some, but immigrants grow old at the same rate as us and require their pension claims to be serviced too.

The associated net cost of providing welfare and services, the impact of automation on unskilled workers and witnessing what might be left of your social cohesion falling off a cliff would be wilfully reckless and economically nonsensical for any government to countenance.

Immigration should play some part in fiscal planning, but to see it endlessly trotted out as a panacea to population shifts in the West is utterly silly.

Sleeper12

Donald Trump wrote:

Ok, but your argument about the dole being good for the local economy is used by proponents of increasing the dole. You are aware of that?

No its not. Even on a reduced dole Its still better to have people staying in the country on the dole for two years than for them to leave the country. Someone spending 100 euros a week is better than someone not living in the country & spending nothing. Other Irish people lost their jobs as a direct result of people leaving the country. Many of the people who fled left bad debt. You can say that you can't walk away from a mortgage in Ireland but plenty did. These won't be back with 200k if they ever come back. Although I suppose they will come back for our generous pension and for the state to look after them in old age.

I honestly can't believe that you are still flogging this dead horse. We tried sending our youth away in the 80s and it almost destroyed the country.

I see no reason to give tax breaks to returning Irish when we have plenty of immigrants willing to do the work without the tax breaks

recedite

Sleeper12 wrote: »

There's two types of South Africans in this country; those who are discriminated against there, and those who claim asylum and social welfare here.

The lad that delivered my pizza last night was neither one of the above.

So he was there long enough to give you his whole life story was he? I hope you gave him a good tip, after delaying him so long.
He must have come in on that special visa program for highly skilled pizza delivery guys.

Sleeper12 wrote: »

You do realise that we have had small numbers of African immigrants coming to Ireland since the 1800s? The asylum seekers is a new thing. There are thousands of African people living here that were never asylum seekers. We had a steady flow of African imagination (not asylum seekers) right throughout the 80s, 90 and into the 0s.

Very few before the '90s and most of them were students who fecked off again after a few years. Sometimes leaving a pregnant Irish woman or a kid behind, as Paul McGrath's father did.
What we have now is a completely different ball game. New "communities" being set up. DP centres being rolled out in small towns, in every corner of Ireland. These people are here to stay, but they have no skills, and their main pathway to getting free stuff is to have more "dependents" ie more kids. The formation of gangs and a new black youth culture.

Sleeper12

Yamanoto wrote: »

For the import model to work from a pensions perspective, you'd end up requiring new arrivals in such large numbers, that population strain would render it completely counter-productive.

This may come as news to some, but immigrants grow old at the same rate as us and require their pension claims to be serviced too.

The associated net cost of providing welfare and services, the impact of automation on unskilled workers and witnessing what might be left of your social cohesion falling off a cliff would be wilfully reckless and economically nonsensical for any government to countenance.

Immigration should play some part in fiscal planning, but to see it endlessly trotted out as a panacea to population shifts in the West is utterly silly.

This isn't really the case. We don't need all of these immigrants to arrive tomorrow. A nice stead build up over the next 20 years will time it just right.


Don't forget this has been a success in many countries. Austriala with an aging population in the 80s / 90s swung its doors open & the main requirement was that you were young. You got extra points if you had children.They wanted families or people of an age that were about to start a family

Donald Trump

Sleeper12 wrote: »

No its not. Even on a reduced dole Its still better to have people staying in the country on the dole for two years than for them to leave the country. Someone spending 100 euros a week is better than someone not living in the country & spending nothing. Other Irish people lost their jobs as a direct result of people leaving the country. Many of the people who fled left bad debt. You can say that you can't walk away from a mortgage in Ireland but plenty did. These won't be back with 200k if they ever come back. Although I suppose they will come back for our generous pension and for the state to look after them in old age.

I honestly can't believe that you are still flogging this dead horse. We tried sending our youth away in the 80s and it almost destroyed the country.

I see no reason to give tax breaks to returning Irish when we have plenty of immigrants willing to do the work without the tax breaks

I understand you are angry at some things but your anger is misplaced. And yes, it is entirely contradictory to push an argument that each additional person on the dole is good for the economy (compared to emigrating) because they immediately spend all their money but at the same time refute that exact same logic when it comes to people who try to use it to argue increasing the dole. In fact, you want to decrease it.


You are conflating an argument related to the "brain-drain" of the 1980's and wholly incorrectly applying it in a different context



You also have a lot of inaccuracies even in your short statement above. Especially related to pension as a returning emigrant will have to pay to buy back stamps for the years they missed


To bring thread back on topic, if say half of these unemployed, and presumably receiving dole, Africans, decided to sign off and go home, do you think that it would be bad for the economy? Would you suggest the government try to convince them to stay here and remain on the dole in order to help save our economy - like the Irish patriots did during the recession - and in contrast to those who emigrated?

Sleeper12

recedite wrote: »

So he was there long enough to give you his whole life story was he? I hope you gave him a good tip, after delaying him so long.
He must have come in on that special visa program for highly skilled pizza delivery guys.


Very few before the '90s and most of them were students who fecked off again after a few years. Sometimes leaving a pregnant Irish woman or a kid behind, as Paul McGrath's father did.
What we have now is a completely different ball game. New "communities" being set up. DP centres being rolled out in small towns, in every corner of Ireland. These people are here to stay, but they have no skills, and their main pathway to getting free stuff is to have more "dependents" ie more kids. The formation of gangs and a new black youth culture.

I'm sorry but that's not true. the leaving the child behind remark is from the 50s & 60s. We have had regular african immigrants since the 80s. In the 90s it was whole families settling here. There are thousands of Irish born Africans now in their 20s & 30s

recedite

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Someone spending 100 euros a week is better than someone not living in the country & spending nothing...

..I see no reason to give tax breaks to returning Irish when we have plenty of immigrants willing to do the work without the tax breaks

Its amazing how the interests of the Alt Left coincide with the interests of the fat cat Bilderbergers and Banksters when it comes to promoting open borders, mass immigration, the benefits of unbridled consumer growth and consumption, and the necessity to keep wages low.

recedite

Check out Simon Coveney and Peter Sutherland sneaking around Copenhagen just a few years ago.


Coveney today - planting new DP centres in every corner of Ireland, and talking about accommodating "1 million extra people" over the next 20 years in his "Ireland 2040" plan.

Timberrrrrrrr

recedite wrote: »

Check out Simon Coveney and Peter Sutherland sneaking around Copenhagen just a few years ago.


Coveney today - planting new DP centres in every corner of Ireland, and talking about accommodating "1 million extra people" over the next 20 years in his "Ireland 2040" plan.

Hardly "sneaking around" is it?

recedite

I have rarely seen anyone looking more sneaky than that pair.

suicide_circus

Ulysses Gaze

Sleeper12 wrote: »

This isn't really the case. We don't need all of these immigrants to arrive tomorrow. A nice stead build up over the next 20 years will time it just right.


Don't forget this has been a success in many countries. Austriala with an aging population in the 80s / 90s swung its doors open & the main requirement was that you were young. You got extra points if you had children.They wanted families or people of an age that were about to start a family

Are you going to be solely relying on the State Pension for your needs?

Do you not have a Private Pension(s) set up?

You want to rely on Pizza Delivery people, Taxi Drivers and Selfie stick sellers to fund your pension?

HailSatan

Pensions timebomb

just how many doctors lawyers and architects do you think we need?

HailSatan

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

You want to rely on Pizza Delivery people, Taxi Drivers and Selfie stick sellers to fund your pension?

The arse really fell out of the pirate DVD hawking. Hope the same doesn't happen to the poor architects selling selfie sticks

Ulysses Gaze

HailSatan wrote: »

Pensions timebomb

just how many doctors lawyers and architects do you think we need?

We need around 20,000 in IT. I'm sure we could train a boatload of the lads above to become Python developers, SQL Developers, Big Data engineers........

Or we could just allow skilled workers in from India,China etc who would immediately take on those roles and pay into the tax take straight away.

But sure according to Sleeper, allowing a bunch of lads in to sit on the dole is a net positive for the economy!