The Dominance of Dublin GAA *Mod warning post#1*

Tombo2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122019788#Comment_122019788

Ok thats a fair point - cant argue with any of that.

Only counterpoint I guess is that the 'model' of each county having a big county ground is unrealistic, it would be better to have 6 to 8 larger stadiums around the country that are run and funded at provincial / national level and are used to host championship games as well as concerts etc.

How many times each year do Pearse Park or MacHale park or Markievicz Park or Hyde Park have an attendance over 15000? For context - all four of these, were they a League of Ireland ground, would be twice the size of the next biggest League of Ireland ground.

Dublin didnt create this problem.

But 100% - as you've outlined it, thats a big advantage for Dublin, from a financial POV.

tritium

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122021453#Comment_122021453

well to be fair I knew you were never going to go for it, as I mentioned your interests appear more about protecting Kerry's place on the roll of honour than helping our national games

Contrary to you assertion it addresses many of the issues you raise. Both Dublin and Kerry are removed to a large degree from their provincial championships to allow those competitions to develop. Dublins travelling to play games removes the assertion of home advantage. The financial advantages that it’s contended are historically enjoyed by Kerry and Dublin compared to the weaker counties are balanced out by putting them in a pool together (though a few others might also need to be added). Only population, which has always been there remains, and that is arguably balanced by the enormous difficulty Dublin faces in accessing land and pitches at anything like the ease of larger counties. It also ensures that provincial councils are less empowered to cheapen the integrity of the competitions than they may have been in the past.

granted we may as we develop the proposal want to look at how the back door works to avoid scenes like Kerry’s 7goal hammering of Kildare a few years back (a 27 point win for a Kerry side arguably in decline at that point), but I’d be confident that can be addressed.

thankfully you’re just one poster as you point out so my post is really aimed at the many posters who have actively shown an interest in the growth and development of these games. Thankfully we have a template in hurling that shows how this might work

gaffer91

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122021688#Comment_122021688

My interests are simple- enhancing Gaelic games for all counties, including Dublin. Contrary to your assertions, it doesn't address those issues. You conceded the point about the population so well done for that; the issues about land, pitches and other facilities have already been dealt with comprehensively- Dublin have far better access to far superior facilities than every other county. The issue isn't the fact that Dublin have a single advantage- as has been stated previously, it is the unique combination, nature, scale and duration of advantages that Dublin have had in population, funding, playing at home etc. that means they should be split.

The provincials are already dead, they don't need to be revived. Dublin's unfair advantages need to be addressed regardless. Large wins are fine as long as they come fairly, it's not teams winning, or winning well, that is a problem, the issue is about the fairness of the playing field, where Dublin alone are uniquely unfairly advantaged. So it follows that people who have an interest in the growth and development of these games should favour splitting Dublin.

Downlinz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122019713#Comment_122019713

At least there'll be an actual competitive game in the province and the bar might not be so unreachable that it discourages other counties. If the problem persists then split them again.

The only other alternatives either involve removing the interest of a potential third of the audience since Dublin aren't involved or destroying some other provincial championship by putting Dublin there and having the problem repeat.

Tombo2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122021463#Comment_122021463

There is no way logistically that Dublin can be split into 2 or 3 or 4 teams. Cant and wont be done.

Apart from anything else - its just assumes that mens senior county football is the be all and end all of GAA.

That because it suits the Leinster Championsip, we'll be splitting Dublin u12 hurlers, minor Camogs, LGFA, Junior footballers - 10s of thousands of players affected - all so that Meath's mens footballers wont get beaten out the gate in one match of the year.

Or you'd be saying, well we are splitting Dublin for this competition, but not for that competition = so at minor you are playing for Dublin, but as soon as you hit u20 you suddenly start playing for Fingal and you are against the guys you played with last year.

All of that so that Meath or Longfords mens senior footballers dont get hammered in that one game of the year in the Leinster Championship.

This is totally totally unworkable, and also is not something that any other county would sign up to themselves. Its a sign of people not taking it seriously as an issue, and just looking for a stick to beat Dublin with.

For me - there are only two clean solutions.

(i) Dublin is taken as a special case and doesnt take part in any provincial championship.

(ii) Dublin rotates between provincial Championships. Play Leinster one year, Ulster the next, Munster the next, Connaught the next. I quite like this idea myself. We already have Galway playing Leinster hurling so why the f not.

flasher0030

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122016713#Comment_122016713

I went to the match yesterday, RoyalCelt. Meath are very poor alright. Some really sloppy play. Gave the ball away numerous times. I'm not sure what they were trying to achieve yesterday. Didn't seem to have any game plan. Just go at it. Reminded me of a poor mans Mayo. Nothing sneaky lined up as some form of Plan B.

When I saw Meath yesterday, it reminded me of seeing them down around Galway (some time in the past 2 years I think). I was driving down the Motorway, and called into the Supermacs/petrol station down near Galway. Big bus pulled up and out spilled the Meath team - they must have some match down around there. I don't mean to sound cynical or begrudging, but the look of them would lead you to think they were world-beaters. They had their shorts, and the Meath training type gear (nothing wrong with that), but the chests were out and a real aura of "look at us, we're intercounty footballers". That's all fine if they had achieved something. But now, fellas think they are the real deal if they make their county team. Seems like it doesn't matter about not winning anything or getting hockeyed by their nearest rivals.

I was very surprised as to their physique, or lack off. I thought it must have been an underage team e.g. under 21s, but the pony tail guy was there Cillian ??? . And there was one or two, who looked like they were in their mid-20s. But the rest looked really slight.

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tritium

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122022173#Comment_122022173

it’s great that you’re finally coming around to the idea that by addressing key advantages for teams like Kerry and Dublin (and a few others possibly) we can make football better for weaker counties. Unfortunately you still seem to have blinkers on to the unfair advantages, stretching back many, many decades, that other teams such as Kerry have enjoyed, as clearly evidenced when we look at the roll of honour- I’m sure even you would agree that 84 Munster titles is quite ludicrous!, The obvious conclusion is that any solution that benefits football in the long run must address these. Thankfully, as I’ve evidenced, the proposal addresses this very elegantly, sweeping away advantages for some counties while creating a more fruitful environment for others. While there will be naysayers who say it doesn’t address the issues, we can surgically walk through how each point is dealt with, as I did in my previous post.

I’m confident that when you’re cheering Kerry on in the Leinster championship one year then cheering Tipp against Dublin in Munster the next you’ll see the benefit. Think of the spectacle, as teams both get to compete against the very top teams and also have a chance to win in a less challenging provincial every other year. Kerry too, released from the stranglehold of a stagnant and uncompetitive Munster, would benefit from playing genuinely meaningful games. True they’d lose their own vice grip on their province but think of the benefits in terms of football quality.

As other posters pointed out (and as you spectacularly failed to address) space and facilities are a huge issue for Dublin. While people see the numbers in Dublin clubs they miss the pressure this puts on very limited space, with many kids struggling to be able to get pitch time. Fortunately many Dublin clubs have spread those resources as fairly as they can, putting their communities ahead of “hot housing” elite players. A credit to the ethos of Gaelic games if not necessarily the way to ensure success. Thankfully the proposal helps here too, by not placing additional strain on already stretched facilities.

tritium

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122022279#Comment_122022279

why not just put them alongside a provincial championship that’s already destroyed. Kerry killed Munster long ago so a rotating Kerry/ Dublin item across Leinster and Munster might solve two problems at once

gaffer91

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122022382#Comment_122022382

It'd be logistically very easy and should definitely happen. All the tens of thousands of player you've mentioned within Dublin would be helped by the split too, although in a different way. No harm in former teammates competing against each other- it's very common in other sports.

It's not about helping Meath or Longford or anyone specifically else win games- it's about levelling the grossly unfair playing field where Dublin alone are unfairly advantaged over everyone else. It's just too risky by this stage to not split them, the harm to the game from leaving Dublin as a single entity is immense- just look at the terrible interest, competitiveness and attendance at the game yesterday.

So yes, we should treat them as a special case, but only in terms of splitting them. Your proposals do nothing to address the unique combination, scale, nature and duration of advantages Dublin enjoy- splitting them into 4+ teams does.

gaffer91

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122022463#Comment_122022463

Your tone and words used make it obvious you're trolling/trying to be funny but unfortunately for you, it's not working well. Dublin alone are unfairly advantaged- that's why Dublin alone need special measures to be taken to address their situation. It's not about success per se, it's about success coming from an unfairly advantaged position, as Dublin's has. Nobody had a problem with Kilkenny's dominance from 2006-12 in hurling as it was won fairly- sadly, this has not been the case with Dublin. Your proposals do nothing to address the population, funding and home pitch advantages Dublin have. Even if they did, which they don't, as they only impact the Provincials, they do nothing for the All-Ireland competition, where Dublin's unfair advantages are often even more pronounced (such as playing all finals and semi-finals in their home stadium). Splitting them does address these advantages, by dispersing the advantages across several teams, rather than concentrating them into one.

The provincials are done. People don't care about them anymore. They should be scrapped, not pointlessly tinkered with. But the main issue in Gaelic games isn't lack of competitiveness in the provincials- it's Dublin alone being unfairly advantaged over everyone else. It's killing interest and competitiveness in the sport, particularly in Leinster, but everywhere is impacted as well.

Space and facilities have been addressed in the last few pages- for instance, Billy_the_kid tried to claim things were worse in Dublin and his argument was immediately and comprehensively blown out of the water, please reread that discussions (of which I was only a minor contributor).

keeponhurling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122022382#Comment_122022382

It would only be for men's senior. And initially for a trial of say 2 years.

The minors, camogie, junior footballers, hurlers etc. aren't winning Leinster every year at a canter. Is it over 10 in a row now?

Otherwise just go for your option (i), they just don't take part. Doing nothing doesn't seem like a good option for me.

To gaffer91's point above, yes it would be harsh for Dublin players to not have an opportunity to win a provincial title each year. But the payoff would be hopefully greater opportunities for the other 10 counties in Leinster.

If this year Dublin weren't in it, then we'd have a final of Offaly v Louth or Kildare. There'd be huge interest in that final, those counties would be desperate to win it.

tritium

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122022656#Comment_122022656

the problem of course with your proposal is that’s it’s not just Dublin who we can argue are or have been uniquely advantaged. Many counties have benefitted from a range of both natural and manufactured advantages. It’s a bit like Real Madrid in soccer hankering after the good old days when they held all the cards. As has been demonstrated amply throughout this thread (and no one has managed to disprove) the problem of imbalance is far bigger than Dublin and would require the GAA to look at far more than just a solution focused on Dublin. As I’ve shown, a solution that entwines Kerry, Dublin and a few others may be the most elegant way to help other counties while breaking with generations of imbalance. It would also be logistically quite easy and would remove the prohibitive costs and negative downsides to other proposals that many posters have so eloquently and compellingly argued

RoyalCelt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122022401#Comment_122022401

That's gonna be your average team in Leinster while Dublin still compete. Young lads. Once they finish college they'll move on with their lives. No point giving it away for a competition where the association you play for wanted Dublin to dominate.

As the poster above said imagine a Louth v Offaly final? I'd go myself as a neutral. And it would be incredibly competitive. If you remove Dublin and the GAA give preferencial funding to all Leinster counties except Meath and Kildare the province will stay ultra competitive forever. You already have Wicklow a minnow only losing to Kildare by a point. Fund those boys and don't over invest in Kildare I guarantee Wicklow would start beating the best and reaching finals.

RoyalCelt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122022279#Comment_122022279

Yes Dublin North or South would be a more achievable goal to reach and Dublin North V South would be a 50/50 derby but the dubs don't want it. Personally I hope the GAA suffers more for their disgraceful funding model. I personally want to see them win 10 in a row all Irelands. Everyone deserves to suffer not just Leinster counties.

Downlinz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122023002#Comment_122023002

The dubs clearly didn't want what was on offer yesterday either since they didn't show up, what exactly do the dubs want at this stage?

RoyalCelt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122023350#Comment_122023350

The dubs just want to time travel to an all Ireland semi or final now but the championship feels boring if it only gets going for your last game or 2. Meath, Dublin and Kildare if they reached a final in the 80's, 90's, 00's would have had an exciting run through Leinster or the backdoor until the reached the final. It felt special. Now some years Dublin don't even get tested until the final. Zzzzzzzz. As a former die hard I just turned to other sports including hurling.

tritium

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122023350#Comment_122023350

Why would you say that. Busy weekend of sport and just after Easter will mean many are stretched financially. That plus an expectation that Dublin should go deeper in the championship would mean many may be thinking they can go to games later in the Leinster championship. Not really fair either to expect Dublin fans to fill Croker by themselves, where were all the Meath fans, from a county heading towards a quarter of a million people in size?

Wouldn’t be a first either tbh, Kerry fans would be well known for waiting till later in the year to show up to matches

Downlinz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122023419#Comment_122023419

Fans from other counties gave up on the Leinster championship a long time ago since they don't view it as a fair contest and believe their team has zero chance of winning it so I understand why Meath and fans from other counties wouldn't attend but if Dublin fans are also getting bored of it then what's the points of it?

Who's it for when one team expects to win Leinster so the fans stay away and all the other teams believe they can't win it so ignore it? It's a failed competition at this stage that seemingly nobody wants.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122023350#Comment_122023350

Back in the 1970s and 1980s, Kerry people only went to All-Ireland semi-finals and finals. They took their unfair advantages for granted.

Dublin people aren't at that stage yet, still get the biggest crowds.

Tombo2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122022656#Comment_122022656

It would be logistically very difficult, would cause huge resentment, and would completely undermine the club structure in Dublin. It actually couldnt work without the support of Dublin clubs, which wont happen.

To go back to my earlier point, people calling for Dublin to be split, when it patently wont be split - these people arent actually taking the problem seriously. They are not looking for actual solutions.

Tombo2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122023406#Comment_122023406

Qualify that, as a former die hard back in a time when Meath were winning…..

The likes of Monaghan, Derry, Tyrone, Mayo, Kerry have no shortage of football fans willing to come to games in Croke Park.

If Meath were back contending, you'd be back watching.

Meath have had a serious decline, irrespective of what Dublin are doing. Its 20 years since a Meath club has made a Leinster club final.

RoyalCelt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122024085#Comment_122024085

Meath haven't won an all Ireland since 1999. I'd no problem following them for years after that and would still do but when the organisation shows such ridiculous bias towards the most successful county there's really no point. My enjoyment levels of the Leinster championship were 10/10 even though Meath would win it maybe once a decade after 1999. Out of principle I won't go.

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122024072#Comment_122024072

Nonsense. How would undermine any club, except that they would only play clubs in their new county? Some of the clubs should be split too.

the issue is people pretending that the solution is somehow a problem.

The Golden Miller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122024312#Comment_122024312

Meath can complain about unfair advantages when Meath do the best Meath can do and still come up short. Meath are miles off being the county they could be. And most worryingly, most of their famous traits are dead too. It's poor form when Meath are complaing about unfair advantages, they were the team who never made excuses, got on with it and got stuck in. Died on the field, run through walls and other teams for the cause, never lay down and overcame all odds with a cast iron will and belief.

Now they are running around with excuses and bowing down with a whimper every time. The attitde of their fans is worse. The whole thing has gone wrong in Meath, from structures, to the county board to players who are afraid. Theres a poison in Meath football, and no on seems able to address the root cause to even start putting it right. It's depressing to watch really

gaffer91

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122022707#Comment_122022707

We can absolutely say that Dublin alone are not only uniquely advantaged but have a unique combination, scale and duration of advantages in population, funding, playing at home etc. No other county even comes close on any one of those metrics individually, never mind taking them all together. So the imbalance is Dublin alone. Minor discrepancies in population can be tolerated but not of the likes Dublin enjoy- the unfair status quo has gone on far too long now.

gaffer91

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122024072#Comment_122024072

It'd be logistically quite easy. We've established for instance that stadiums can be shared and no new facilities would be required- there are sufficient ones already in Dublin. It wouldn't undermine the club structure at all, it'd enhance it if anything. It's far too dangerous and unfair for Gaelic games for Dublin not to be split.

How do you propose dealing with Dublin's unfair advantages in population, funding and playing at home then?

gaffer91

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122024605#Comment_122024605

Totally agree on the last sentence. One thing with people disputing the need for a split is they never have any proposals for how to deal with Dublin's unfair advantages. Just because it is the status quo does not mean it can in any way be justified. Leaving Dublin as a single team is far, far more dangerous for Gaelic games than splitting them.

gaffer91

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122024666#Comment_122024666

But it's not poor form for Meath to be complaining about unfair advantages. Their complaints have 100% merit. Dublin are indeed unfairly advantaged and have been for decades. It's perfectly natural that people would be annoyed about that. If we wanted Meath to become competitive again, the first thing we'd have to do is level the playing field so it's a fair competition. And the way to do that is by splitting Dublin.

keeponhurling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025408#Comment_122025408

Exactly. Maybe Meath can do more internally to develop footballers.

But taking away all hope does not help football in any county.