It would be logistically very difficult, would cause huge resentment, and would completely undermine the club structure in Dublin. It actually couldnt work without the support of Dublin clubs, which wont happen.
To go back to my earlier point, people calling for Dublin to be split, when it patently wont be split - these people arent actually taking the problem seriously. They are not looking for actual solutions.
Back in the 1970s and 1980s, Kerry people only went to All-Ireland semi-finals and finals. They took their unfair advantages for granted.
Dublin people aren't at that stage yet, still get the biggest crowds.
Fans from other counties gave up on the Leinster championship a long time ago since they don't view it as a fair contest and believe their team has zero chance of winning it so I understand why Meath and fans from other counties wouldn't attend but if Dublin fans are also getting bored of it then what's the points of it?
Who's it for when one team expects to win Leinster so the fans stay away and all the other teams believe they can't win it so ignore it? It's a failed competition at this stage that seemingly nobody wants.
Why would you say that. Busy weekend of sport and just after Easter will mean many are stretched financially. That plus an expectation that Dublin should go deeper in the championship would mean many may be thinking they can go to games later in the Leinster championship. Not really fair either to expect Dublin fans to fill Croker by themselves, where were all the Meath fans, from a county heading towards a quarter of a million people in size?
Wouldn’t be a first either tbh, Kerry fans would be well known for waiting till later in the year to show up to matches
The dubs just want to time travel to an all Ireland semi or final now but the championship feels boring if it only gets going for your last game or 2. Meath, Dublin and Kildare if they reached a final in the 80's, 90's, 00's would have had an exciting run through Leinster or the backdoor until the reached the final. It felt special. Now some years Dublin don't even get tested until the final. Zzzzzzzz. As a former die hard I just turned to other sports including hurling.
The dubs clearly didn't want what was on offer yesterday either since they didn't show up, what exactly do the dubs want at this stage?
Yes Dublin North or South would be a more achievable goal to reach and Dublin North V South would be a 50/50 derby but the dubs don't want it. Personally I hope the GAA suffers more for their disgraceful funding model. I personally want to see them win 10 in a row all Irelands. Everyone deserves to suffer not just Leinster counties.
That's gonna be your average team in Leinster while Dublin still compete. Young lads. Once they finish college they'll move on with their lives. No point giving it away for a competition where the association you play for wanted Dublin to dominate.
As the poster above said imagine a Louth v Offaly final? I'd go myself as a neutral. And it would be incredibly competitive. If you remove Dublin and the GAA give preferencial funding to all Leinster counties except Meath and Kildare the province will stay ultra competitive forever. You already have Wicklow a minnow only losing to Kildare by a point. Fund those boys and don't over invest in Kildare I guarantee Wicklow would start beating the best and reaching finals.
the problem of course with your proposal is that’s it’s not just Dublin who we can argue are or have been uniquely advantaged. Many counties have benefitted from a range of both natural and manufactured advantages. It’s a bit like Real Madrid in soccer hankering after the good old days when they held all the cards. As has been demonstrated amply throughout this thread (and no one has managed to disprove) the problem of imbalance is far bigger than Dublin and would require the GAA to look at far more than just a solution focused on Dublin. As I’ve shown, a solution that entwines Kerry, Dublin and a few others may be the most elegant way to help other counties while breaking with generations of imbalance. It would also be logistically quite easy and would remove the prohibitive costs and negative downsides to other proposals that many posters have so eloquently and compellingly argued
It would only be for men's senior. And initially for a trial of say 2 years.
The minors, camogie, junior footballers, hurlers etc. aren't winning Leinster every year at a canter. Is it over 10 in a row now?
Otherwise just go for your option (i), they just don't take part. Doing nothing doesn't seem like a good option for me.
To gaffer91's point above, yes it would be harsh for Dublin players to not have an opportunity to win a provincial title each year. But the payoff would be hopefully greater opportunities for the other 10 counties in Leinster.
If this year Dublin weren't in it, then we'd have a final of Offaly v Louth or Kildare. There'd be huge interest in that final, those counties would be desperate to win it.
Your tone and words used make it obvious you're trolling/trying to be funny but unfortunately for you, it's not working well. Dublin alone are unfairly advantaged- that's why Dublin alone need special measures to be taken to address their situation. It's not about success per se, it's about success coming from an unfairly advantaged position, as Dublin's has. Nobody had a problem with Kilkenny's dominance from 2006-12 in hurling as it was won fairly- sadly, this has not been the case with Dublin. Your proposals do nothing to address the population, funding and home pitch advantages Dublin have. Even if they did, which they don't, as they only impact the Provincials, they do nothing for the All-Ireland competition, where Dublin's unfair advantages are often even more pronounced (such as playing all finals and semi-finals in their home stadium). Splitting them does address these advantages, by dispersing the advantages across several teams, rather than concentrating them into one. The provincials are done. People don't care about them anymore. They should be scrapped, not pointlessly tinkered with. But the main issue in Gaelic games isn't lack of competitiveness in the provincials- it's Dublin alone being unfairly advantaged over everyone else. It's killing interest and competitiveness in the sport, particularly in Leinster, but everywhere is impacted as well. Space and facilities have been addressed in the last few pages- for instance, Billy_the_kid tried to claim things were worse in Dublin and his argument was immediately and comprehensively blown out of the water, please reread that discussions (of which I was only a minor contributor).
It'd be logistically very easy and should definitely happen. All the tens of thousands of player you've mentioned within Dublin would be helped by the split too, although in a different way. No harm in former teammates competing against each other- it's very common in other sports. It's not about helping Meath or Longford or anyone specifically else win games- it's about levelling the grossly unfair playing field where Dublin alone are unfairly advantaged over everyone else. It's just too risky by this stage to not split them, the harm to the game from leaving Dublin as a single entity is immense- just look at the terrible interest, competitiveness and attendance at the game yesterday. So yes, we should treat them as a special case, but only in terms of splitting them. Your proposals do nothing to address the unique combination, scale, nature and duration of advantages Dublin enjoy- splitting them into 4+ teams does.
why not just put them alongside a provincial championship that’s already destroyed. Kerry killed Munster long ago so a rotating Kerry/ Dublin item across Leinster and Munster might solve two problems at once
it’s great that you’re finally coming around to the idea that by addressing key advantages for teams like Kerry and Dublin (and a few others possibly) we can make football better for weaker counties. Unfortunately you still seem to have blinkers on to the unfair advantages, stretching back many, many decades, that other teams such as Kerry have enjoyed, as clearly evidenced when we look at the roll of honour- I’m sure even you would agree that 84 Munster titles is quite ludicrous!, The obvious conclusion is that any solution that benefits football in the long run must address these. Thankfully, as I’ve evidenced, the proposal addresses this very elegantly, sweeping away advantages for some counties while creating a more fruitful environment for others. While there will be naysayers who say it doesn’t address the issues, we can surgically walk through how each point is dealt with, as I did in my previous post.
I’m confident that when you’re cheering Kerry on in the Leinster championship one year then cheering Tipp against Dublin in Munster the next you’ll see the benefit. Think of the spectacle, as teams both get to compete against the very top teams and also have a chance to win in a less challenging provincial every other year. Kerry too, released from the stranglehold of a stagnant and uncompetitive Munster, would benefit from playing genuinely meaningful games. True they’d lose their own vice grip on their province but think of the benefits in terms of football quality.
As other posters pointed out (and as you spectacularly failed to address) space and facilities are a huge issue for Dublin. While people see the numbers in Dublin clubs they miss the pressure this puts on very limited space, with many kids struggling to be able to get pitch time. Fortunately many Dublin clubs have spread those resources as fairly as they can, putting their communities ahead of “hot housing” elite players. A credit to the ethos of Gaelic games if not necessarily the way to ensure success. Thankfully the proposal helps here too, by not placing additional strain on already stretched facilities.
worth the travel alone! We are some beast
I went to the match yesterday, RoyalCelt. Meath are very poor alright. Some really sloppy play. Gave the ball away numerous times. I'm not sure what they were trying to achieve yesterday. Didn't seem to have any game plan. Just go at it. Reminded me of a poor mans Mayo. Nothing sneaky lined up as some form of Plan B.
When I saw Meath yesterday, it reminded me of seeing them down around Galway (some time in the past 2 years I think). I was driving down the Motorway, and called into the Supermacs/petrol station down near Galway. Big bus pulled up and out spilled the Meath team - they must have some match down around there. I don't mean to sound cynical or begrudging, but the look of them would lead you to think they were world-beaters. They had their shorts, and the Meath training type gear (nothing wrong with that), but the chests were out and a real aura of "look at us, we're intercounty footballers". That's all fine if they had achieved something. But now, fellas think they are the real deal if they make their county team. Seems like it doesn't matter about not winning anything or getting hockeyed by their nearest rivals.
I was very surprised as to their physique, or lack off. I thought it must have been an underage team e.g. under 21s, but the pony tail guy was there Cillian ??? . And there was one or two, who looked like they were in their mid-20s. But the rest looked really slight.
There is no way logistically that Dublin can be split into 2 or 3 or 4 teams. Cant and wont be done.
Apart from anything else - its just assumes that mens senior county football is the be all and end all of GAA.
That because it suits the Leinster Championsip, we'll be splitting Dublin u12 hurlers, minor Camogs, LGFA, Junior footballers - 10s of thousands of players affected - all so that Meath's mens footballers wont get beaten out the gate in one match of the year.
Or you'd be saying, well we are splitting Dublin for this competition, but not for that competition = so at minor you are playing for Dublin, but as soon as you hit u20 you suddenly start playing for Fingal and you are against the guys you played with last year.
All of that so that Meath or Longfords mens senior footballers dont get hammered in that one game of the year in the Leinster Championship.
This is totally totally unworkable, and also is not something that any other county would sign up to themselves. Its a sign of people not taking it seriously as an issue, and just looking for a stick to beat Dublin with.
For me - there are only two clean solutions.
(i) Dublin is taken as a special case and doesnt take part in any provincial championship.
(ii) Dublin rotates between provincial Championships. Play Leinster one year, Ulster the next, Munster the next, Connaught the next. I quite like this idea myself. We already have Galway playing Leinster hurling so why the f not.
At least there'll be an actual competitive game in the province and the bar might not be so unreachable that it discourages other counties. If the problem persists then split them again.
The only other alternatives either involve removing the interest of a potential third of the audience since Dublin aren't involved or destroying some other provincial championship by putting Dublin there and having the problem repeat.
My interests are simple- enhancing Gaelic games for all counties, including Dublin. Contrary to your assertions, it doesn't address those issues. You conceded the point about the population so well done for that; the issues about land, pitches and other facilities have already been dealt with comprehensively- Dublin have far better access to far superior facilities than every other county. The issue isn't the fact that Dublin have a single advantage- as has been stated previously, it is the unique combination, nature, scale and duration of advantages that Dublin have had in population, funding, playing at home etc. that means they should be split. The provincials are already dead, they don't need to be revived. Dublin's unfair advantages need to be addressed regardless. Large wins are fine as long as they come fairly, it's not teams winning, or winning well, that is a problem, the issue is about the fairness of the playing field, where Dublin alone are uniquely unfairly advantaged. So it follows that people who have an interest in the growth and development of these games should favour splitting Dublin.
well to be fair I knew you were never going to go for it, as I mentioned your interests appear more about protecting Kerry's place on the roll of honour than helping our national games
Contrary to you assertion it addresses many of the issues you raise. Both Dublin and Kerry are removed to a large degree from their provincial championships to allow those competitions to develop. Dublins travelling to play games removes the assertion of home advantage. The financial advantages that it’s contended are historically enjoyed by Kerry and Dublin compared to the weaker counties are balanced out by putting them in a pool together (though a few others might also need to be added). Only population, which has always been there remains, and that is arguably balanced by the enormous difficulty Dublin faces in accessing land and pitches at anything like the ease of larger counties. It also ensures that provincial councils are less empowered to cheapen the integrity of the competitions than they may have been in the past.
granted we may as we develop the proposal want to look at how the back door works to avoid scenes like Kerry’s 7goal hammering of Kildare a few years back (a 27 point win for a Kerry side arguably in decline at that point), but I’d be confident that can be addressed. thankfully you’re just one poster as you point out so my post is really aimed at the many posters who have actively shown an interest in the growth and development of these games. Thankfully we have a template in hurling that shows how this might work
Ok thats a fair point - cant argue with any of that.
Only counterpoint I guess is that the 'model' of each county having a big county ground is unrealistic, it would be better to have 6 to 8 larger stadiums around the country that are run and funded at provincial / national level and are used to host championship games as well as concerts etc.
How many times each year do Pearse Park or MacHale park or Markievicz Park or Hyde Park have an attendance over 15000? For context - all four of these, were they a League of Ireland ground, would be twice the size of the next biggest League of Ireland ground.
Dublin didnt create this problem.
But 100% - as you've outlined it, thats a big advantage for Dublin, from a financial POV.
I actually wouldn't agree with this- I think it would be unfair on players and supporters in Dublin for them not to have a team to compete in and support a regional competition that they used to compete in. So while I'd prefer if Provincials were just gotten rid of, if they do exist, Dublin divisional sides should be allowed to compete. So a split of Dublin into 4+ teams would work very well here- increased fairness, integrity and prestige of the Leinster Championship. Increased interest and participation in other counties. Dublin supporters happy as they still get to support a divisional side and watch their clubmates challenge for the Leinster title, plus the benefit of knowing that if they win now, it's not in a completely unfair playing field where they are grossly advantaged over everyone else- players can take some prides in these kinds of victories, unlike at present.
A thread can't continue if there is only one poster. This is a terrible proposal. It would do nothing to address Dublin's unfair advantages in population, funding and playing at home constantly. There are issues with the lack of competitiveness in the Provincial Championships, but this is a reason to just scrap them, rather than pointless tinkering with them of the likes you have suggested. But the urgency of scrapping the Provincials pales in comparison with the urgency to just split Dublin. Any reforms to the Provincials, any reform to the GAA at all really, should take place after this most important first step has been taken. Dublin's unfair advantages aren't "alleged" by the way- they've been proven beyond any doubt to not only exist, but be a large driver of Dublin's recent successes. Also the Provincials are just one way to get through the Championship, it's not 2000 anymore. Time has moved on. If we want a glimpse of the All-Ireland in the near future, take a look at Meath vs Dublin yesterday. A once highly anticipated game, tickets hard to come by, sold out as recently as 2007. Now, an uncompetitive shambles, the result not in doubt, sparsely attended, little interest from Dublin supporters and even less from Meath players or supporters as they know it is not a level playing field. The All-Ireland is going the same way.
Are we now at the point where we should seriously consider if Dublin sit out the Leinster championship ?
and in effect recognize that they are different to the other 11 counties in Leinster, given their population is much bigger than the other 11 combined..
It would give real hope to the other 11 countries and make it competitive.
Maybe Dublin could have a "club month" in April like we used to have. Or set up some sort of novel round robin between Dublins North, South, East and West.
Very hard to see where the "revenue" was yesterday. Does Croke Park not need at least 20,000 supporters to break even?
Also odd that Meath would opt to play in Croke Park. Being hammered by Dublin will do nothing for the confidence of these players, a tighter game in Navan would have.
amazed this thread is still going given it’s basically the hobby horse of one Kerry poster looking to keep his team top of he roll of honour..
anyway, Sean Cavanagh had an interesting idea that might keep everyone happy. Let’s move the Dubs to Munster. In fact let’s go one better, let’s alternate Dublin and Kerry- Kerry play Leinster one year and Dublin play Munster the next.
Kerry would actually have to work for their shot at a provincial title and wouldn’t get all the easy runs they got in the past courtesy of the Munster council. Two of the counties that have over the years been accused of unfair financial dominance (both laid out on some detail on this thread) would have to navigate each other early on. Kerry’s alleged vast unfair advantages and Dublins alleged vast unfair advantages would be negated by each other early on. A shot on the arm for Munster football and a bit of a lift for the jaded masses there as well as a boost to attendances in both provinces that I’m sure would be welcome. The Leinster and Munster councils could collaborate on the administration. Meanwhile Leinster could try to develop the standard ofother counties without having to worry about or blame the big bad Dublin bogeyman. As a Dub it would be hard to leave Leinster I’ll grant you, but it’s fair to say Munster and Leinster could do with a bit of spicing up. I’m sure Kerry posters will be just as open to the idea.
if after a decade or so other Leinster and Munster teams have started to be competitive we could look again at shuffling other teams around. Ultimately it might even end up being an end to the provincials and a more league like structure to the competition.
A moot point, haha, tell that to the gaa people of mayo, with their “50-year rate of €20,552 per month” for a stand! Same in a lot of other counties. Galway are about to spend €8m on just flood lights for their stadium, how much did cork spend?
Meanwhile Dublin can leave Parnell ticking over and let the GAA maintain croke park for them, yes they bring in big revenue for the GAA but if Dublin had to spend the type of money other counties do on their main GAA ground then it would also saddle their country board with huge debt but they don’t have to.
https://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/mayo-board-restructures-its-79m-debt-on-machale-park/41113327.html#
Split a province in two? You'll just have Dublin north Vs south finals. Best just create a Leinster county championship where only real counties compete.
That attendance today for Dub v Meath was embarrassing. And I can see it going lower 😂
Are we at the stage where even the Dubs are bored of this and begin to support a split out of sheer apathy or is there a few more years of Leinster processions before we get there?
See the goal Dublin scored where he takes 10 steps when it's a draw match? They don't even hide it anymore. Why would anyone want to attend such a lobsided setup?
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