The Dominance of Dublin GAA *Mod warning post#1*

gaffer91

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122010305#Comment_122010305

So I've explained things in depth probably two dozen times by this stage and have debunked your counterarguments countless times too but will do so again now. The thing is my opinion is fully grounded in reality- that's why it is my opinion! And yes, the evidence backs it up too. You've yet to provide any evidence for why population, funding, home pitch advantage etc. are not really advantages (presumably because you can't).

My raison d'etre is to help all counties, including but not exclusively, the smaller sides like Leitrim. I will make no apologies for wanting the GAA to do what helps everyone. As I showed in previous post, while benefits may differ between counties (e.g., Dublin's benefits from a split are different to Leitrim's), one thing we can say for sure is that splitting Dublin helps all counties.

You're not contesting that a fairer, more prestigious competition with more integrity (which is what will result if Dublin are split) is innately good so we've seen how counties are helped in a general sense. I've already answered if Leitrim are helped more vs say Galway or Mayo; as Galway and Mayo are still somewhat competitive despite the unfair playing field currently, the benefits to Leitrim are larger (relatively more increased interest and participation vs Galway or Mayo, who remain competitive at present). And while I want to help all counties, if smaller counties are helped more, I will admit that this is okay with me.

Of course I have no animosity towards Dublin- this is why I am proposing measures that help them. And Dublin don't cheat at all, everything that has happend in recent decades has been perfectly legal- the GAA is to blame, not Dublin.

As I said before, if France had the same advantages over every other team as Dublin do in terms of population, funding, playing at home then yes, splitting them would help all teams that compete in the same competition they do (review what I've said on Leitrim- the same logic would apply). This reflects more how damaging Dublin's unfair advantages are than anything else, that a split of them can have such far-reaching benefits! I've already said I can't comment specifically on counter-factual events- review my logic on how Cluxton not playing for Dublin to understand why. I'm not omniscient as I said but we can comment on obvious general trends.

Regarding your comments where you went crazy and dismissed the shared stadium idea (that is ""Soccer, eh? Cool. Now do inter-county GAA teams… See what I mean about cherry-picking?"), and which you are now backtracking on, it qualifies in this world, the world we live in. You didn't want soccer comparisons but now you do. As I said, no reason it shouldn't apply for sharing stadiums, which we know works, and other parts of the sport. I've indulged you in the interest of continuing our discussion but there can be no doubting your angry response and subsequent hypocrisy.

gaffer91

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122010389#Comment_122010389

Wait so you're accepting that some players from Leitrim are not declaring currently?! This is a massive breakthrough! You will probably try to backtrack but this is a tacit admission that splitting Dublin will increase interest and participation in Leitrim (by having more players declare) and by extension, Leitrim's competitiveness. So now you see how, in at least one way although there are many more, splitting Dublin does help Leitrim! And then of course, we have the benefits to prestige, integrity and fairness to the competition as a whole that arise from splitting Dublin and ridding one team of their unique unfair advantages.

gaffer91

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122010748#Comment_122010748

I mean there are more facilities in Dublin that are quicker to get access to in terms of travel time, and that are of better quality with more variety than in most areas around the country. This is true in a general sense.

Re: Croke Park, it's relevant for inter-county teams, which is what we are mostly discussing. And there can be no doubt the GAA paid top dollar for a stadium that is now Dublin's home ground. And I've repeatedly said that yes, playing all semi-finals and finals in Dublin's home stadium is indeed unfair and is yet another unfair advantage they have!

Yeah Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122010832#Comment_122010832

So I've explained things in depth probably two dozen times by this stage and have debunked your counterarguments countless times too but will do so again now.

No, you haven't.

The thing is my opinion is fully grounded in reality- that's why it is my opinion! And yes, the evidence backs it up too.

No, it's not, and it doesn't.

As I showed in previous post, while benefits may differ between counties (e.g., Dublin's benefits from a split are different to Leitrim's), one thing we can say for sure is that splitting Dublin helps all counties.

No, you didn't. You made a claim that it did, then folded and refused to elaborate when questioned.

You're not contesting that a fairer, more prestigious competition with more integrity (which is what will result if Dublin are split) is innately good so we've seen how counties are helped in a general sense.

No, we haven't. You've made this claim, not backed it up with anything of substance and now you're claiming it as gospel. that's not how it works, I'm afraid.

I've already answered if Leitrim are helped more vs say Galway or Mayo; as Galway and Mayo are still somewhat competitive despite the unfair playing field currently, the benefits to Leitrim are larger (relatively more increased interest and participation vs Galway or Mayo, who remain competitive).

No, you haven't. You've just said they'd be benefitted by the split. How are they helped more? How are they helped at all?

I'm blue in the face asking you these questions and you're steadfast refusal to answer them flies in the face of your claims that you are answering everything in-depth and comprehensively.

As I said before, if France had the same advantages over every other team as Dublin do in terms of population, funding, playing at home then yes, splitting them would help all teams that compete in the same competition they do (review what I've said on Leitrim- the same logic would apply).

That's not the question that was asked, you're dodging it again because it shows your argument is a load of bollocks. Here's the question that was asked:

Would we have conceded fewer goals? Scored more? Would our opponents somehow have played worse or would we have been improved? How? Why?

This reflects more how damaging Dublin's unfair advantages are than anything else, that a split of them can have such far-reaching benefits!

Benefits that exist only in your mind, benefits that you cannot quanitfy or put into words because they do not exist. You're pulling this stuff out of your hole.

we can comment on obvious general trends.

Obvious general trends that don't exist because they were fabricated by you.

Regarding your comments where you went crazy and dismissed the shared stadium idea (that is ""Soccer, eh? Cool. Now do inter-county GAA teams… See what I mean about cherry-picking?"),

Still haven't even attempted to explain how that's going crazy.

You didn't want soccer comparisons but now you do.

Never said that and I've explained this to you 4 times at this stage, I won't be doing it again.

I've indulged you in the interest of continuing our discussion but there can be no doubting your angry response and subsequent hypocrisy.

You haven't indulged anything, you've lied, made false accusations, dodged questions, refused to answer others and proffered bullshit answers for those that you did answer, and even went so far as answering questions that weren't asked of you. Calling me angry and a hypocrite again, without evidence again, only shows you up for the charlatan that you are.

A complete fraud and a troll.

Yeah Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122010845#Comment_122010845

Nope, that's your lack of reading comprehension showing again.

This is your claim, not mine. I'm saying how my estimated consequences (a toothless competition where the best team is deliberately hobbled so that your team can have a chance) is far worse for the competition than your estimated consequences (that the next Clifford is hiding away in Dromahair somewhere and the only thing stopping him from declaring for the county is the big, bad Dublin team who the haven't a hope of meeting).

Notice how you latched onto this part of my post, and ignored the rest?

Because we all did.

Notice how you didn't even address the points about how splitting Dublin damages the integrity and fairness and prestige?

Because we all did.

Notice how you've, yet again, jumped in with two feet because you thought you had an answer (but didn't) for one portion, but ignored the parts where you have no comeback, thereby cherry-picking the bits and pieces you reply to?

Because we all did.

gaffer91

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122010910#Comment_122010910

I have indeed debunked your posts many times- you keep coming back with the same points and questions but this is the sign that your argument it in tatters. I've also elaborated numerous times on how splitting Dublin helps Leitrim? I'm not sure where the confusion is. And it is me that should be blue in the face given how patient I have been answering your repeated questions in-depth and comprehensively! Maybe review the posts again to get a better understanding for the real and immediate benefits that will result, both to Leitrim and Dublin.

You're not challenging or even discussing the unfair advantages Dublin enjoy (namely population, funding, playing at home etc.) so if you ignore the points raised, it's natural to assume you are not disputing them. How do you propose to deal with these unfair advantages then?

I've said I don't know how many more goals etc. Ireland would have scored if France had been unfairly advantaged like Dublin are and then split- I will not invent something. I won't give answers where I don't know. I have humility to know the limits of my knowledge. I can say that if France were unfairly advantaged like Dublin are, if we had an exact replica of Dublin's unfair advantages, then yes, splitting them would help Ireland. It'd help all countries, including France, albeit in different ways. See how splitting Dublin helps Leitrim for the why- I've explained this enough times at this stage.

I've also explained how splitting Dublin helps Dublin- see post 8856 for just some of them. Regarding you going crazy about sharing stadiums, it's self-explanatory. You furiously said ""Soccer, eh? Cool. Now do inter-county GAA teams… See what I mean about cherry-picking?". The tone, writing, terms used etc. are evidence of how you went crazy. This was just one quote from a series of posts where you were getting angrier and angrier because you don't want Dublin to be split for some reason- I fear the same process is playing out right now with you! And while you initially didn't want relevant soccer comparisons, you were happy to make an exemption in your own case- this is the hypocrisy on your part we discussed.

Now I've dealt with your questions again, please come back with some proposals on how we deal with Dublin's unfair advantages.

gaffer91

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122010944#Comment_122010944

You said fewer Leitrim players would declare . This is a tacit admission that interest and participation would increase in Leitrim if Dublin are split. You're backtracking again now, but this is what I've come to expect! But I agree with you that interest and participation would increase in Leitrim after a split of Dublin, no questions there.

I didn't respond to the rest of your post as it was just plain trolling- you're taking arguments that are legitimate and true in Dublin's case (i.e., that splitting them helps the prestige, integrity and fairness of the competition) and falsely and without evidence applying them for other teams. There's no need to engage with such dishonest debating on part- especially given how indulgent I have been of you to date.

And again, it's not about "hobbling" Dublin-it's about ensuring fairness in Gaelic games. Dublin will be helped by a split, there can be no doubt about that.

Yeah Right

I have indeed debunked your posts many times- you keep coming back with the same points and questions but this is the sign that your argument it in tatters. I've also elaborated numerous times on how splitting Dublin helps Leitrim? I'm not sure where the confusion is. And it is me that should be blue in the face given how patient I have been answering your repeated questions in-depth and comprehensively! Maybe review the posts again to get a better understanding for the real and immediate benefits that will result, both to Leitrim and Dublin.

No you haven't debunked anything.

No you haven't elaborated on anything.

No, I won't review anything because I've read all you've had to say on this topic and it is all surface-level guff.

You keep saying that a hobbled Dublin will benefit Leitrim but I'm asking you HOW it will benefit them. Saying the prestige integrity etc. is improved isn't an elaborate answer. It isn't even really an answer at all. It's a load of waffle. This was proven when I asked you to elaborate and say how many/which games they'd have performed better in if Dublin had been abolished and you said you couldn't say. Your entire argument boils down to "I don't know how they'd be better, or why they'd be better, or which games they'd have played better in, all I know is they'd be better". This is, quite frankly, a load of me bollocks.

You're not challenging or even discussing the unfair advantages Dublin enjoy (namely population, funding, playing at home etc.) so if you ignore the points raised, it's natural to assume you are not disputing them. How do you propose to deal with these unfair advantages then?

I have zero interest in having a rational discussion with someone who refuses to do likewise. And, as a bitter Kerryman once said, I've already answered this question, you'll have to look back over my previous posts I'm afraid.

I've said I don't know how many more goals etc. Ireland would have scored if France had been unfairly advantaged like Dublin are and then split- I will not invent something. 

But you've said they would have played better and we would have had better results. How do you know this? What logic and data are you using to come to this conclusion? Because so far it's all in your head and, I suspect, you don't even believe it yourself. You're only saying you do because to admit the truth means your argument about splitting Dublin is dead in the water.

I've also explained how splitting Dublin helps Dublin- see post 8856 for just some of them. Regarding you going crazy about sharing stadiums, it's self-explanatory. You furiously said ""Soccer, eh? Cool. Now do inter-county GAA teams… See what I mean about cherry-picking?". The tone, writing, terms used etc. are evidence of how you went crazy. This was just one quote from a series of posts where you were getting angrier and angrier because you don't want Dublin to be split for some reason- I fear the same process is playing out right now with you! And while you initially didn't want relevant soccer comparisons, you were happy to make an exemption in your own case- this is the hypocrisy on your part we discussed.

Furious now, as well as crazy? How is that sentence being furious?

Now I've dealt with your questions again, please come back with some proposals on how we deal with Dublin's unfair advantages.

Asked and answered multiple times.

Yeah Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122011101#Comment_122011101

No, you need to go back to your Ann and Barry books and start again.

I didn't claim fewer players would declare. You said it, not me. I've already explained this to you.

you're taking arguments that are legitimate and true in Dublin's case ……(snip)……. and falsely and without evidence applying them for other teams. 

So, when you say something falsely and don't back it up with any evidence it is true, but when I do the exact same, using the exact same words, it is false? Good to know that's the type of person we're engaging with.

You keep copying and pasting your nonsense, there's a good lad.

gaffer91

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122011135#Comment_122011135

You did claim and now you're trying to backtrack, as predicted. You said it, not me. I've already explained this to you.

Drop the aggressive tone also. While our views differ, and you're upset that I've caught you out a few times (such as around comparisons with soccer), there is no reason we cannot discuss things civilly.

The thing is I don't say things that are false or not backed up by evidence! Dublin are unfairly advantaged and splitting then would reduce this unfairness, this is indisputable by this stage.

gaffer91

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122011121#Comment_122011121

I have debunked your responses and elaborated on things countless times. And you absolutely should review previous posts, it'll help you get a thorough understanding of the issues. See post 8952 for how splitting Dublin helps Leitrim for instance. I've also shown why we can't state conclusively on counterfactuals- just like with the Cluxton example which you agreed with. The same applies with France in your hypothetical- see the benefits for Leitrim and extrapolate. We can't say conclusively on individual matches, just as we can't say with Cluxton, but we can comment on the general trend. For instance you can't comment on which games Dublin would have lost without Cluxton but you have accepted the team would have performed worse. Unlike you, I am not insisting you make up answers to unanswerable questions! The principle is similar.

I've already answered how the soccer stadium debacle was a furious response. Tbh it is self evident. You seem quite angry in a lot of your posts to be perfectly honest- this should just be a friendly discussion on how splitting Dublin helps the GAA in all counties.

You've yet to answer how you propose dealing with Dublin's unfair advantages also?

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122011235#Comment_122011235

Getting an answer from Dublin advocates as to how they propose dealing with Dublin's unfair advantages is more difficult than getting the Israeli ambassador to explain how a prosperous Palestine will emerge from their policies.

RoyalCelt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122010764#Comment_122010764

Got offered a free ticket for this. Proudly declined.

dunnerc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122013563#Comment_122013563

Ah sure it's on the telly 😜

flasher0030

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122013563#Comment_122013563

That's an embarrassing comment. A fair weather "supporter". And I refer to supporter in it loosest possible sense.

I remember one of my relations saying after an all-ireland loss by our county team - "I'll never cross the road to watch those fu(kers again". Absolutely horrible. But lo and behold, 2 years later he was going around looking for all ireland tickets again when they were in the all ireland. Some people have no shame at all.

mobby

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122013563#Comment_122013563

Would ye not go just to see the Dubs...

RoyalCelt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122014053#Comment_122014053

Haven't been to a game in croker barring the Tailteann final in years. Probably 7 year's or more. I followed them through thick and thin but the association bending over backwards to give the already most dominant county in Leinster the absolute maximum advantage and not even hiding it was the last straw.

I refuse to fund this scam with my money or presence. Hurling for me now and the odd all Ireland Series match as a neutral. The only reason I'll ever go again will be to let the kids experience it. As far as I'm concerned I'm done and look at the tiny attendances from counties like meath and Kildare when we play Dublin the vast majority agree with me.

RoyalCelt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122015653#Comment_122015653

Most Dublin fans won't even be there.

mobby

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122016715#Comment_122016715

I still think you should go, Just to see the Dubs..

The Golden Miller

Another occasion for these useless Meath players to embarrass themselves in front of the nation, and further sully their hard won reputation, where they were one Irelands greatest and toughest champions.

Wheres the pride, heart and fight in these Meath players? It's gone on long enough, this lethargic apathy in their attitude. People know Meath won't win tomorrow, but that doesn't matter if the pride and fight is there. No one minds losing, when you leave it all out there. Whens the last time Meath could say they left it all out there v Dublin, or even come close? Should be disgusted with themselves.

Wishful thinking for Meath fans, having even hope they might see the old Meath fighting spirit. Absolute beaten dogs, its abysmal and pitiful watching their players destroy the countys proud tradition

RoyalCelt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122016780#Comment_122016780

If I watch the Dubs it'll be in the hurling. Always cheer for Dublin and Wexford for the Bob O'Keefe. Still dreaming of a Dublin V Wex final.

RoyalCelt

See the goal Dublin scored where he takes 10 steps when it's a draw match? They don't even hide it anymore. Why would anyone want to attend such a lobsided setup?

Downlinz

Are we at the stage where even the Dubs are bored of this and begin to support a split out of sheer apathy or is there a few more years of Leinster processions before we get there?

RoyalCelt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122019070#Comment_122019070

Split a province in two? You'll just have Dublin north Vs south finals. Best just create a Leinster county championship where only real counties compete.

That attendance today for Dub v Meath was embarrassing. And I can see it going lower 😂

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122010748#Comment_122010748

A moot point, haha, tell that to the gaa people of mayo, with their “50-year rate of €20,552 per month” for a stand! Same in a lot of other counties. Galway are about to spend €8m on just flood lights for their stadium, how much did cork spend?

Meanwhile Dublin can leave Parnell ticking over and let the GAA maintain croke park for them, yes they bring in big revenue for the GAA but if Dublin had to spend the type of money other counties do on their main GAA ground then it would also saddle their country board with huge debt but they don’t have to.

https://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/mayo-board-restructures-its-79m-debt-on-machale-park/41113327.html#

tritium

amazed this thread is still going given it’s basically the hobby horse of one Kerry poster looking to keep his team top of he roll of honour..

anyway, Sean Cavanagh had an interesting idea that might keep everyone happy. Let’s move the Dubs to Munster. In fact let’s go one better, let’s alternate Dublin and Kerry- Kerry play Leinster one year and Dublin play Munster the next.

Kerry would actually have to work for their shot at a provincial title and wouldn’t get all the easy runs they got in the past courtesy of the Munster council. Two of the counties that have over the years been accused of unfair financial dominance (both laid out on some detail on this thread) would have to navigate each other early on. Kerry’s alleged vast unfair advantages and Dublins alleged vast unfair advantages would be negated by each other early on. A shot on the arm for Munster football and a bit of a lift for the jaded masses there as well as a boost to attendances in both provinces that I’m sure would be welcome. The Leinster and Munster councils could collaborate on the administration. Meanwhile Leinster could try to develop the standard ofother counties without having to worry about or blame the big bad Dublin bogeyman. As a Dub it would be hard to leave Leinster I’ll grant you, but it’s fair to say Munster and Leinster could do with a bit of spicing up. I’m sure Kerry posters will be just as open to the idea.

if after a decade or so other Leinster and Munster teams have started to be competitive we could look again at shuffling other teams around. Ultimately it might even end up being an end to the provincials and a more league like structure to the competition.

tobefrank321

Very hard to see where the "revenue" was yesterday. Does Croke Park not need at least 20,000 supporters to break even?

Also odd that Meath would opt to play in Croke Park. Being hammered by Dublin will do nothing for the confidence of these players, a tighter game in Navan would have.

keeponhurling

Are we now at the point where we should seriously consider if Dublin sit out the Leinster championship ?

and in effect recognize that they are different to the other 11 counties in Leinster, given their population is much bigger than the other 11 combined..

It would give real hope to the other 11 countries and make it competitive.

Maybe Dublin could have a "club month" in April like we used to have. Or set up some sort of novel round robin between Dublins North, South, East and West.

gaffer91

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122021196#Comment_122021196

A thread can't continue if there is only one poster.

This is a terrible proposal. It would do nothing to address Dublin's unfair advantages in population, funding and playing at home constantly. There are issues with the lack of competitiveness in the Provincial Championships, but this is a reason to just scrap them, rather than pointless tinkering with them of the likes you have suggested. But the urgency of scrapping the Provincials pales in comparison with the urgency to just split Dublin. Any reforms to the Provincials, any reform to the GAA at all really, should take place after this most important first step has been taken. Dublin's unfair advantages aren't "alleged" by the way- they've been proven beyond any doubt to not only exist, but be a large driver of Dublin's recent successes.

Also the Provincials are just one way to get through the Championship, it's not 2000 anymore. Time has moved on. If we want a glimpse of the All-Ireland in the near future, take a look at Meath vs Dublin yesterday. A once highly anticipated game, tickets hard to come by, sold out as recently as 2007. Now, an uncompetitive shambles, the result not in doubt, sparsely attended, little interest from Dublin supporters and even less from Meath players or supporters as they know it is not a level playing field. The All-Ireland is going the same way.

gaffer91

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122021410#Comment_122021410

I actually wouldn't agree with this- I think it would be unfair on players and supporters in Dublin for them not to have a team to compete in and support a regional competition that they used to compete in. So while I'd prefer if Provincials were just gotten rid of, if they do exist, Dublin divisional sides should be allowed to compete.

So a split of Dublin into 4+ teams would work very well here- increased fairness, integrity and prestige of the Leinster Championship. Increased interest and participation in other counties. Dublin supporters happy as they still get to support a divisional side and watch their clubmates challenge for the Leinster title, plus the benefit of knowing that if they win now, it's not in a completely unfair playing field where they are grossly advantaged over everyone else- players can take some prides in these kinds of victories, unlike at present.