The Dominance of Dublin GAA *Mod warning post#1*

Enquiring

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117628474#Comment_117628474

They are playing at home in any term possible. Just to remind you again, the Dublin senior footballers have played all their home championship games in Croke Park for the past 50/60 years bar one game against London in 2004. And they played every single championship game in their home stadium Croke Park for 10 years between 2006-2016. Wexford was their first away Leinster championship match in 15 years. These are the facts, your debating trick involves sticking your fingers in your ears and pretending not to hear.

Dublin didn't just get funding from the GAA, they got huge amounts of taxpayers money. We're talking millions here. They had their own scheme set up while every other county had to work with far less. That's why the titles are tainted. Dublin have increased sponsorship and income hugely off the back of this new success. Dublin now spend close to 4 million on player development alone! Millions more on team preparations and salaries. They are dominating and have improved hugely across all codes and grades because they are a highly financed, professional organisation competing in amateurs games. Again, these are the facts, I expect you to cover your ears once more but you know it, I know, we all know it.

Enquiring

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117628496#Comment_117628496

I think Leinster counties have to show more fight but Dublin haven't had it that tough outside Leinster either. It's just very hard to compete against a multi-million euro professional organisation.

RoyalCelt

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117628496#Comment_117628496

How have monaghan faired vs Dublin in croker for championship matches the last 50 years? Not as well as meath anyway. For a team that wouldn't throw in the towel I wouldn't have thought that.

They're blessed Dublin isn't in ulster every year because if it was we'd be all talking about the boring ulster championship and how exciting leinster is.

Dublin in a lull atm yet they still beat meath comfortably today.

A runners up medal for the hurlers this year too and the ladies looking strong.

Hammer Archer

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117625790#Comment_117625790

With respect, by your definition, no GAA team plays at home as there's never any allocation of tickets in home/away games. Anyone can purchase any number of tickets

Dublin footballers' home ground is Croke Park at the moment. The Dublin County board chose Croke Park as their home ground for the league (before Covid that is). If they wanted, they'd be free to use Parnell Park for their home games, but they made that decision which makes obvious financial sense.

Now, obviously there are a huge number of championship games that need to be played in Croke Park and there's nothing that can be done about that, but it's very misleading to try to argue that Croker isn't Dublin's home ground when they're the ones who have chosen it.

RoyalCelt

Dublins home town advantage showed again today getting some very questionable referring decisions.

dunnerc

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117630190#Comment_117630190

Think you need to watch the game again

Enquiring

Investing in coaching and development works! Once again we have proof of that with Offaly winning the Leinster u20 championship. An increase in funding has made a big difference. Same with Kildare winning an u20 All Ireland recently, Meath winning an underage provincial title and even Wicklow improving hugely in underage competitions. Now the funding has to be increased across the country, especially in 'weaker' counties.

But this is all a stark reminder of how disgraceful the decision was to provide one county with a multi million euro development system while every other county operated with very few coaches. From 2002 Dublin GAA were competing on an uneven playing field. Everyone is well aware of the huge increase in titles won across the board, the only surprise is that there weren't more, in fact, it's hugely embarrassing for Dublin GAA that they didn't win more.

I think we should be calling for some form of tribunal to look into why the Dublin only scheme was permitted by the GAA and why millions of taxpayers money went directly to one county board. Who approved this? Who signed off on this? What government ministers were involved? There are tons of questions that need to be answered.

lukin

You'd have more luck finding Shergar than finding one Dublin supporter who would admit that the Games Development funding has helped them win their All-Ireland's.

ooter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117630190#Comment_117630190

home town advantage wasn't of much benefit to the senior hurlers the previous evening.

RoyalCelt

Meath win the minor leinster title tonight. We've had some underage success recently and I can tell you it's a direct result of the underage funding provided by the GAA. I'm not privey to the goings on within offaly but I'd imagine it's something similar.

The scariest decision ever made by the gaa administration was finding Dublin underage up to the eyepals while the rest got pennies. We still get pennies compared to Dublin. It just shows you money talks in the gaa and meaths recent underage success is a direct result of money.

The next step should be providing counties with more funds to try and match the professional setup Dublin have at senior level. Obviously meath have a professional setup as do all counties but it pales in comparison.

Ahh if only meath had a population of 2 million with many not interested in the gaa. With have had money thrown at us and we'd now be winning all Irelands and leinsters for fun. Except I wouldn't find it fun especially leinster. No sane person enjoys cakewalks for a decade straight.

Enquiring

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117695457#Comment_117695457

No, no, no. You've got this all wrong. The money doesn't have any impact on elite level results, it's all for primary school kids, improving standards is because Meath have harder working volunteers, Meath need the money because some kids play other sports or one of the other long list of excuses thrown out by the defenders of the financial disparity. 😆

It really puts this to bed. Meath winning underage titles, Kildare winning an u20 All Ireland, Offaly getting to an u20 All Ireland final etc. Putting proper coaching structures and plans into operation makes a huge difference. And to put them in place, you need the finance. Again, serious questions need to be asked as to why it took nearly 2 decades for a small proportion of counties outside of Dublin to gain access to the development system and why it still hasn't been made available to all counties.

It's highly unlikely to happen but there should be a tribunal set up to investigate how millions of public and GAA funds were reserved for a one county only scheme. Who was behind the decision, what government ministers etc were involved, details of the meetings between Dublin County Board members and members of the government need to be uncovered and so on. It really is a scandal, not only the tens of millions of euro but that so many players were denied winning titles because they were competing against a county operating at a professional level in our amateur games.

jmayo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117700532#Comment_117700532

Jaysus were you living under a rock or something.

Bertie was in charge when all this was setup.

GAA were afraid of losing gorund in capital and bertie was only too glad to open the state coffers to make his county better.

Now if you are looking for memos, minutes, etc of his meetings then you might be out of luck.

You don't expect the finance minister without a bank account or who didn't know how much he was spending on doing up his rented gaff to have kept minutes of meetings with GAA president or Dublin county board. 🙄

lukin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117652855#Comment_117652855

No you are wrong in your last paragraph there about the tribunal. Yes there should be a tribunal set up to investigate this but not to find out why this was allowed to happen; instead it should try to find out why all this investment didn't improve the standards of Dublin football one iota. Because that is what the Dub supporters keep telling us isn't it; that the money they got from the GAA did not improve the Dublin team one bit.

Enquiring

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117704729#Comment_117704729

It didn't start with the GAA, it started when Dublin footballers lost to Meath and Kildare for a few years in a row in the 1990's. Dublin didn't enjoy losing in a fair fight and saw their dominance of Leinster sliding so they then first made movements to gain financial support from their government contact. Yes, Bertie Ahern and as you have pointed out, he had a bit of a chequered past. The man who approached him was also a dodgy character. John Bailey was the Dublin county board chairman for most of the 90's and 00's. He is disgraced politician Maria Bailey's father and if you have a look at his history, you can see where she got it from.

These two dubious politicians were at the start point of this scandal but it went on to involve many others and in the end, the GAA drew up the plan for Dublin GAA, provided huge funds to put it into action and then of course there was millions of public funds placed directly into the development of Gaelic Games in Dublin. Getting any truth from Bertie Ahern or members of the Dublin County Board is highly unlikely as you say but the GAA have serious questions to answer. Can you name any sport where the Governing body actively funded and developed the sport for one competitor above all others? It's an absolute disgrace that it happened to begin with but for it to continue for almost two decades was criminal.

Enquiring

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117705476#Comment_117705476

Yeah, apparently the funding had no influence on the Dublin senior footballers improvements or the Dublin ladies footballers or underage hurling and football, Dublin senior hurlers, club football and hurling. Virtually every grade and code of men's and women's Gaelic Games saw an unprecedented and dramatic upturn in results but it had nothing to do with the millions of euros and huge numbers of professional coaches. Apparently.....

MarkLotek

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/116437892#Comment_116437892

These are national problems, which unfortunately the government does not want to solve. Or it solves these problems very slowly. We are hostages of Covid and only do what we are told to do. 

gormdubhgorm

Interesting how no detailed mention the Dublin hurlers get on this thread. Plus no mention of the disadvantage that Dublin hurlers have playing outside CP much more suited to the tight pitch of Parnell. Any astute GAA person would regnise this. It seems the Dublin senior hurlers do not get a detailed mention because it does not suit certain people's funding narrative. And would have to resort to non-sequiturs to explain it away. If the funding narrative was true in the last 15 years to now Dublin would be a hurling powerhouse.

But their only period of success came under imported manager Daly and then faded away. Also the Dublin senior hurling team had a number of key imports playing for them at that period Dwyer, Corcoran etc

Also there seems to be little realisation that changing Dublin's home games to CP was a decision decided as a financial benefit to the Leinster Council and drum up interest in the league creating a spring series.

Also it does not seem to be noted at all that the Leinster Council are/were very dependant on Dublin crowds financially .That money goes back into Leinster teams. Dublin were the cash cow for years.

It is why the Leinster council are reluctant to change the championship structure.

Also astute GAA people would realise that in the Dublin football team it is clear that the strength in depth is no longer there. The impact is not the same on the Dublin bench and so on. Shot selection and quality of off the ball movement has decreased. There are few support runners.

Also asuste GAA people will realise how weak Kildare and Meath have become in the last decade or so. They struggle to make division 1. That is of no fault of Dublin but the fault of neglect of Kildare GAA and Meath GAA. It is clear now that Meath GAA was dependant on one great manager - Boylan. And Kildare GAA's best era came when they had 'Marquee Micko' along with the 'imports' he brought with him to the county. Those two managers papered over a lot of cracks of Kildare and Meath football. When they left the fall was gradual and now stark one. That is no coincidence.

How well have Kildare and Meath done in the backdoor system which has nothing to with Dublin? Only the level of those two Leinster teams. Some counties seem to want to use Dublin as an excuse for their own falls from grace and neglect.

gormdubhgorm

Here is a look at Kildare and Meath's performances between 2010 -2020 against lesser opponents.

It is fairly eye opening when you at it trough the prism of shock defeats Meath and Kildare suffered in those years.

It is all the more stark when you look at it through the prism of population.

2010

Leinster Championship

Kildare: beaten by Louth by 7 points in the Leinster QF

Population

Kildare: 222,504

Louth: 128, 884

2012 - 2014

Leinster Championships

Meath and Kildare defeat each other

Population

Meath: 195, 444

Kildare: 222,504

--

--

2015

Leinster Championship

Meath lose to Westmeath

Population

Meath: 195,444

Westmeath: 88,700

--

--

2016

Leinster Senior Football Championship

Kildare

Scraping by Wicklow in the QF's and losing v Westmeath in the SF

Population:

Wicklow: 142,425

Kildare: 222,504

Westmeath: 88,700

(Meath 195, 444 lost to Derry in the qualifiers population 107,877. Many of whose population would not mind if the GAA would not exist)

--

--

2018

Leinster football championship

Meath

Shocked by Longford in the Leinster QF by 2 points

Kildare

Shocked by Carlow in the QF by 7 points

Population:

Meath: 195,444

Longford: 40,873

Kildare: 222,504

Carlow: 56,932

--

--

2019

Leinster football championship

Kildare

Snuck by Wicklow by 1 point

Taken to a replay by Longford winning by 11

Population:

Kildare: 222,504

Wicklow: 142,425

Longford: 40,873

--

--

So by my reckoning that is at least 5 times in the last 10 Leinster Championships where either Kildare or Meath, have been shocked by inferior footballing opponents. A 50% loss rate that should not occur that often. Given Kildare's and Meath's resources v the other Leinster counties excluding Dublin.

If you include Kildare's 2019 draw v Longford and near upset by Wicklow that is 7 times in the last 10 Leinster championships.

In my view definite questions need to be asked, because judging by many arguments population automatically leads to success.

And how come Meath and Kildare fell so far so fast relative to these smaller (less traditional) counties?

gormdubhgorm

League standings are a great indicator of level.

I believe the standard of leinster football has fallen below Munster overall.

Looking the rest of Leinster (barring Dublin) is fast coming close to the levels Munster barring Kerry. Or maybe Munster has overtaken Leinster?

Leinster Teams league standings 2020

Dublin div1

Meath[ div 1 relegated 1 draw (13 years previous in div 2)

Kildare div 2

Westmeath div 2

Laois div 2

Offaly div 3

Longford div 3

Louth div 3 relegated (no points)

Wicklow div 4 promoted won

Wexford div 4

Carlow div 4

2020 two div 1 teams. three div 2 teams, three div 3 teams, three div 4 teams

2021 One div 1 team, four div 2 teams, four div 3 teams, two div 4 teams

--

--

Munster teams league standings 2020

Kerry div 1 winners

Clare div 2

Cork div 3 promoted won

Tipperary div 3

Limerick div 4

Waterford div 4

2020 One div 1 team, one div 2 team, two div 3 teams, two div 4 teams

2021 One div 1 team, two div 2 teams, one div 3 team, two div 4 teams

--

--

Very little between the provinces which says more about Leinster's overall decline, than it does about Dublin's improvement in my view.

Enquiring

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117709315#Comment_117709315

The improvements in Dublin hurling has been well documented and in fact, they are more extraordinary than in Dublin football. The Dublin senior hurlers were minnows who got regular beatings and were losing to Laois and Westmeath prior to funding. Through the funding which led to a huge number of new players coming through at underage, Dublin went on to win a provincial title, a national league and become serious contenders at the top table. That is a dramatic improvement, it would be like Wicklow winning a Leinster football championship and competing seriously for the All Ireland football championship. Even this year, Dublin beat Galway in the Leinster championship and got to the last 6 in the championship.

I mentioned underage hurling above, a huge number of titles post funding, Dublin barely won any prior to it. We also have club hurling where standards also improved beyond recognition, 2 All Ireland titles in recent years. So opposite to your claim that the Dublin hurling doesn't get much mention, it has got plenty of discussion and your attempt to claim it hasn't improved with the onset of funding has been obliterated multiple times over.

It also has been pointed out that the GAA bankrolling Dublin was in part a business decision. An improved Dublin would bring in additional income. That's why the Dublin footballers played every game at home in Croke Park for 10 years and why they tried to make it the home of the Dublin hurlers as well but Dublin fans wouldn't attend. How Kildare and Meath or any other county performed is 100% irrelevant to this discussion. Only one county were granted millions of euros to implement a plan drawn up by the GAA to develop talent and that was Dublin. The huge number of professional coaches led to improved results across the board, well over 100 titles have been won by Dublin GAA post funding. This is an obvious result of a multi million euro fund but even if it didn't result in a large number of championships going to Dublin it would be wrong. The governing body of a sport should not be financing one county to the cost of all others.

ooter

Dublin were beaten by laois in 2019.

Enquiring

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117709759#Comment_117709759

❔ Is there meant to be a point here? Dublin have lost games in ladies football, men's football, underage hurling and football, club hurling and football but that doesn't change the simple fact that there has been an extodinary upturn in results across all codes and grades within Dublin GAA post funding. It just shows what millions of euro and a huge number of professional coaches can do.

Jaden

Since the upgrade, I've been much less inclined to visit boards. The new layout is not to my liking, and navigating presents, eh, challenges.

However, this topic, for however long it remains active, will always bring me back.

To all the regular posters: I unironically. and with genuine gratitude, thank you from the bottom of my heart. In what have been gloomier and trying times, this topic never fails to cheer me up. Once again, thank you - and long may this discussion live.

ooter

[QUOTE]The Dublin senior hurlers were minnows who got regular beatings and were losing to Laois and Westmeath prior to funding[/QUOTE]

if they were minnows then surely they're still minnows now, they're still losing to counties like laois.

Enquiring

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117710134#Comment_117710134

Through the funding which led to a huge number of new players coming through at underage, Dublin went on to win a provincial title, a national league and become serious contenders at the top table. That is a dramatic improvement, it would be like Wicklow winning a Leinster football championship and competing seriously for the All Ireland football championship. Even this year, Dublin beat Galway in the Leinster championship and got to the last 6 in the championship.

❔ Is there meant to be a point here? Dublin have lost games in ladies football, men's football, underage hurling and football, club hurling and football but that doesn't change the simple fact that there has been an extodinary upturn in results across all codes and grades within Dublin GAA post funding. It just shows what millions of euro and a huge number of professional coaches can do.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117709666#Comment_117709666

What has happened Dublin senior hurling since 2011 and 2013?

Have the improvements being 'well documented' in Dublin hurling? That seems like very generalised vague statement.As it is clear Dublin have only achieved one League title in 2011 against a weakened KK team minus the James Stephen's lads Henry et al. I remember I was at it.

Also one Leinster title in 2013 against a Galway team that did not look interested. I remember because I was at it. That is pushing a decade ago now. Also Dublin were comfortably beaten in the end (after Dwyer was sent off) by Cork in the AI Hurling SF that year and have not looked like of having a notion of reaching that stage since.

Dublin lost to Antrim (Under Dalo) in the following years I seem to remember and very recently were beaten by Laois.

Numbers wise and funding argument wise Dublin should have kicked on since then, it is clear they have not. All these 'professional' coaches must not be very good in the last guts of a decade. When the foreign 'imports' went and Dalo left Dublin hurling have never recovered since.

Since then Dublin Senior hurling has clearly regressed it is beyond doubt. To say otherwise is delusional. Added to the the fact that the sport of hurling is not all that competitive there very few high standard competitive teams in hurling. Puts the sole funding argument on even shakier ground. It is mainly Munster based plus KK and Galway. Which is way less of competitive level than football would be in comparison.

The funding argument has a clear flaw imo when it comes to Dublin senior hurling it should be far easier to dominate a smaller competitive intercounty scene like hurling if the funding/resources argument holds true. It is a major, major flaw in the funding as the sole reason for Dublin's success argument. Dublin even got relegated in the NHL div 1 recently! Shouldn't the effects of funding a have kicked in the intervening decade?

Where are Dublin's wristy hurlers?

You will note that many on the hurling threads from other counties question why Dublin do not produce 'wristy hurlers'. At the moment Dublin do not have a real natural forward and for hurling have to resort to playing Chris Crummy A hardworking, fast, honest wingback as forward. Wouldn't all these 'professional coaches' make 'wristy hurlers' with all that money and the whole competitive dynamic of hurling as we know it would be changed?

You seem to revel in broad generalisations rather than looking at the facts on the ground. Which leads me to believe you have an agenda within an intrangenient narrative.

Your generalised distant 'funding hypothesis' excludes all other issues, and variables - because it does not suit your narrative.

In my view you only seem focused on one issue to the neglect of all others. No mention of how poor other counties such as Kildare and Meath football have become for a decade - super 8's record and the backdoor record. Also those former strong traditional counties (kildare/Meath) losing to to Wicklow Westmeath and struggling v Longford etc. No focus on how they went from a position of strength to one of neglect.

No mention of the problems with the championship structures in football etc which is another contributory factor. I feel Dublin are being made an an easy scapegoat to hide from those real issues. And historical and self inflicted problems that have nothing to do with Dublin GAA.

And you make generalisation about Dublin hurling without looking at actual senior hurling results. Which clearly make a lie of your narrative. Simply because it is an anathema to your Dublin football argument. I am starting to wonder whether you regularly attend GAA matches and actually have a clear view what is going on the ground. Your viewpoint seems 'distant', and written in an almost abstract tone. Almost as if you are writing about the GAA as something you are viewing from afar.

ooter

it's the elephant in the corner of the room that many can't/won't see.

Enquiring

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117710377#Comment_117710377

It is highly embarrassing for Dublin GAA, I agree with you. With the millions spend on coaching and development, along with the millions spent on team preparations, Dublin hurlers should be doing far better. There's no doubt about that, in fact every competition a Dublin GAA representative enters they are competing with a huge advantage. They have won well over 100 titles post funding but the truth is that they should be winning far more given their financial advantages.

The facts are though, the money has had an incredible influence on Dublin hurling. From their first ever Leinster title with their own players, their first ever National league title, from minnows to serious contenders, first ever club All Ireland, huge success and underage level etc etc. This kind of outlandish improvements have been replicated across the board. The Dublin ladies footballers never won an All Ireland pre funding, they've now won 5. Dublin u20/21 footballers never won an All Ireland pre funding, they've now won 5. Dublin club football teams have won 11 Leinster and 4 All Ireland club titles post funding. It just goes on and on. An incredible level of funding has led to an incredible upturn of results. But as you say, the only surprise is that Dublin GAA teams haven't won more.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117709964#Comment_117709964

I find the upgrade refreshing. Similar to to what a revamp of the provincial championship structure would do. It has reinvigorated the website. Hopefully in the coming years it will not take GAA long to follow boards.ie's lead hand set up a competitive home and away structure against teams of a similar level. Currently we have to wait to the SF's to see a countywide mix of teams from (more often than not div1). Unfortunately the traditionalist's are holding the GAA backwards.

That is a much bigger part of the issue than Dublin's football dominance in my opinion. It is the same in Munster with Kerry at similar levels a stupid archaic structure. Mayo dominate Connacht with Galway chipping in ocassionally. What hope have the weaker football counties like Leitrim, Waterford, Meath and Kildare? Ok Louth and Wicklow :D The system is unfair.

gormdubhgorm

I for one am thankful of this Dublin football era because it has brought football on leaps and bounds. Away from what could have been a turgid future with defensive style football. Now teams have moved beyond that. And we have seen how keepers like Beggan and Morgan have moved on the keeper position from even what Cluxton did.

Without Dublin men like Jim Gavin, Stephen Cluxton et all Football would be in the dark ages. Dublin football has even brought on Mayo GAA and Kerry GAA. You can see it tactically they copy what Dublin have done.

If there was no Dublin Gaelic Football as it was teams would still be playing with 14 men behind the ball - copying Mr McGuinness. Who in fairness in his own way forced Dublin and Jim Gavin to move on tactically. In a way Dublin would not have won the 6 in row only for Jim Guinness in 2014. It is less to do with funding but more to do with players and managers who are willing to adapt and think outside of the box.

You can see it here in AI Final 2019 when Dublin were a man down:

You can't buy tactical genius management like that and intelligent football brains. Plus bravery in doing so.

Cluxton played as the 14th man outfield when Dublin were a man down, and Rock picked up the Kerry keeper. Cool heads, sharp minds.