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IONITY - charging / fees / tips

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  • Registered Users Posts: 20,047 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    zg3409 wrote: »
    Cashel is a disaster. The single esb charger is always ICEd and busy next to MacDonald's. IONTY spaces are often all ICEd as car park is too small and cars park there and go for food. You can't assume you will get a charge at Cashel. They should install a raising barrier activated by the Ionity app, to stop ICE cars getting to that location. At non peak times it may be OK. Getting the Ionity chargers to actually work is another common problem, sometimes you need to try 2 or 3 and call help desk. I have never heard of all chargers in use at any Ionity site

    that doesnt sound amazing:eek:


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 19,006 Mod ✭✭✭✭slave1


    ...sounds typical, ICED/out of order are always my issues, if someone charging then I carry on so never and issue (to date)

    My stuff for sale on Adverts inc. EDDI, hot water cylinder, roof rails...

    Public Profile active ads for slave1 (adverts.ie)



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,976 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    I've never had an issue getting a charge at cashel.
    (Bar the one time , my first time, when the machine printed instructions were wrng!)


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭redcup342


    ELM327 wrote: »
    When the etron does 120kW to >80% and 50kW at 100%, the fast DC is king. No one charges at AC on route.

    The Y is substantially cheaper, charges faster (both in terms of peak kW but more importantly in the "km/h" charging speeds) and offers better charging offers and functionality.

    The etron is definitely more premium and comes with discounted ionity rates, but will that be enough?

    I would disagree on that one, many people I know that do long distance drives in Germany use the least amount of DC Fast charging possible and incorporate a city/town stop into their trip, you can load around 40kWh in 2 hrs on the AC Charge points in 2 hours if your car is capable (That's plenty of time to sit down relax and have some dinner + drinks)

    Then use AC at your destination (many people charge as SLOW as possible at their destination, you'll see plenty of cars charging at 3.6kw Schuko because they simply don't need the car for 24 hours and don't want to have to come back and move the car since the charge completed too quickly)

    Also when they use the 3.6kw Schuko it frees up the 11/22 kw port.

    You only need DC Rapid charging when you do long distance trips, if you need it all the time you will eventually reduce the life of the battery anyway.

    Horsing in juice at a rapid charger for 35 minutes to 80% while eating some packed lunch or junk from the local Mc Donalds isn't as nice really.

    Many people do Dusseldorf - Berlin this way, stop in either Wolfsburg/Magdeburg/Brunswick load up and relax (the parking is free too)

    Then use DC Rapid charging for a few minutes if you need to on top.

    Hence why I think fast AC is more important for many people than super fast DC, I would never rely purely on DC for long distance, it's option B really.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,976 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    That's fair enough if it works for you but I suspect you may be in the minority. At least in my experiences anyway. I do 50-60k km a year and would never even dream of stopping at AC en route. And I have three phase AC onboard


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭redcup342


    ELM327 wrote: »
    That's fair enough if it works for you but I suspect you may be in the minority. At least in my experiences anyway. I do 50-60k km a year and would never even dream of stopping at AC en route.

    Most of my work colleagues do that mileage and would use DC for maybe 5-10% of their charging when they aren't commuting to Work (Driving down to the Alps or up to the North Sea or something)

    You'll find many people doing that mileage over here will have an EV because they do that mileage (120-130 km each way to work)

    They get 4500 / year back in Commuting costs (Taxback) not taking into account their EV Government grant, no motor tax for 10 years and free charging in Work.

    Depends on your usage pattern but if you are doing the maximum range of your vehicle on every trip you take then maybe it's not the right car for you. Remember, relying on DC Charging alone will reduce the life of your battery.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,976 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    redcup342 wrote: »
    Most of my work colleagues do that mileage and would use DC for maybe 5-10% of their charging when they aren't commuting to Work (Driving down to the Alps or up to the North Sea or something)

    You'll find many people doing that mileage over here will have an EV because they do that mileage (120-130 km each way to work)

    They get 4500 / year back in Commuting costs (Taxback) not taking into account their EV Government grant, no motor tax for 10 years and free charging in Work.

    Depends on your usage pattern but if you are doing the maximum range of your vehicle on every trip you take then maybe it's not the right car for you. Remember, relying on DC Charging alone will reduce the life of your battery.
    This is spin and has been proven to have no meaningful difference beyond crappy leafs with no thermal management.


    I do 120km a day to work and about 400km a week outside of that. With the Tesla and the Ioniq I had before that, the DC charging is only at the weekend if needed. But say I have to drive to cork, you can be sure I'll be charging at 100kW in ballacolla not 11kW AC for 6 hours in some little village!


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,117 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    ELM327 wrote: »
    This is spin and has been proven to have no meaningful difference beyond crappy leafs with no thermal management.

    Have you not watched Bjorn's nerfing videos for Tesla? :confused:


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭redcup342


    ELM327 wrote: »
    This is spin and has been proven to have no meaningful difference beyond crappy leafs with no thermal management.

    I do 120km a day to work and about 400km a week outside of that. With the Tesla and the Ioniq I had before that, the DC charging is only at the weekend if needed. But say I have to drive to cork, you can be sure I'll be charging at 100kW in ballacolla not 11kW AC for 6 hours in some little village!

    Your car couldn't charge at 22kW, like the Zoe or the Model S and X can for example (With optional dual charger)

    I think the Ioniq was 6.8 or 7kw ?

    20 minutes on a 22KW AC Charger would give you more than enough range to get to Cork from Dublin (If your car was capable of accepting that charging speed)

    I'm not saying that isn't a use case, I'm saying the majority of people in Germany prefer to use AC Charging if possible because:

    A. They need a break anyway
    B. The Motorway Chargepoints are usually uncovered and theres nothing to do there. (Holland is much better, Fastned have some decent setups)
    C. It's cheaper (can be even free)
    D. It's opportunistic, they can incorporate something like shopping, dinner, visiting a town into it.
    E. Cost

    Now saying that there are some exceptions, Aldi, IKEA and a few other shops have Free DC Chargers that are between 20 and 50kw .. so since that's free they go for that.

    But Ionity is basically not used that much here really, it's mostly used by people crossing Germany, Dutch/Belgians/French, because they don't have a card for the local chargers or they are unfamiliar with the networks.

    Again .. you'll see Zoes plugged into ABB Chargers here skipping CCS and using AC 22 KW (many reasons for that, cost being one)

    In any case you can have multiple 22KW AC (3-4) for the cost of 1 Rapid DC Charger.

    In any case Audi took feedback from there Customers and there'll be a 22KW option by the end of 2020 :pac:

    https://www.audi.de/de/brand/de/elektromobilitaet/laden.html
    An on-board charger (OBC) with 11 kW 3 is currently installed in the vehicle . A second OBC is expected to be offered as a paid option at the end of 2020. With two on-board chargers, AC charging with up to 22 kW is possible. With direct current (DC), the Audi e-tron and Audi e-tron Sportback charge up to 150 kW as standard with quick charging stations.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,224 ✭✭✭Kramer


    redcup342 wrote: »
    Depends on your usage pattern but if you are doing the maximum range of your vehicle on every trip you take then maybe it's not the right car for you.

    Are you suggesting ELM327 get a diesel then?

    :pac:


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭redcup342


    Kramer wrote: »
    Are you suggesting ELM327 get a diesel then?

    :pac:

    Maybe was a step too far :pac:

    I merely meant if you battery was small to the point where you needed rapid charging every day then maybe a bigger battery would be considered to cover your daily needs before you need to charge overnight.

    Unless you are a taxi driver or something of course :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,130 ✭✭✭innrain


    redcup342 wrote: »

    20 minutes on a 22KW AC Charger would give you more than enough range to get to Cork from Dublin (If your car was capable of accepting that charging speed)


    Out of the three variables here one is wrong. 20 mins @ 22 kW it gets you at most 50 km. In Tesla S is close to 30 km.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,946 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    innrain wrote: »
    Out of the three variables here one is wrong. 20 mins @ 22 kW it gets you at most 50 km. In Tesla S is close to 30 km.

    Yep an e-tron is going to charge at 39km/h on a 22kW charger, or 77km/h if it has the 22kW AC upgrade. It's capable of charging at 590km/h on the the Ionity charger. I think you'd have to be a mad person to spend two hours AC charging and add 78km of range instead of stopping at Ionity for 8 mins to obtain the same charge.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭redcup342


    liamog wrote: »
    Yep an e-tron is going to charge at 39km/h on a 22kW charger, or 77km/h if it has the 22kW AC upgrade. It's capable of charging at 590km/h on the the Ionity charger. I think you'd have to be a mad person to spend two hours AC charging and add 78km of range instead of stopping at Ionity for 8 mins to obtain the same charge.

    Well it really depends on what you are doing in the Dublin to Cork Example you wouldn't use a Rapid charger because you have enough range to get to Cork then you could charge at a 22kw charger and have enough charge to get home again without having to stop at all (even if you were only in Cork for 4 hours)

    When I do long distance trips here on the continent with the E-Tron or i-Pace I can't do city stops as it takes 9 hours to do a full AC Charge, so unless you are staying in a hotel over night it's kind of useless.

    You're also assuming there are 175kw or 350kw chargers everywhere on the continent :) there aren't, most are 50kw.

    For the moment I would not say the E-Tron or the i-Pace are very comfortable for long trips, for now I take the BMW i3 or the i3s.


  • Registered Users Posts: 31,068 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    In my brief (3-4 month, 8000km) experience of running an EV I haven't used a roadside AC charger.

    There are chargers near my regular destinations but not close, so the choice has been to park at the AC charger and spend 15 minutes walking burdened with stuff or park literally outside my destination with no charging and then spend 15 minutes at Ionity on the way back drinking a coffee or working in the car.

    Ionity wins every time.

    The uncertainty of charger availability is a factor. I would like the AC charging availability to come up on the screen as I approach the destination, but Tesla seems to be uninterested in third party chargers, despite AFAIK the data all being open and available, so I have to use my phone to look that up, and that's not going to happen when driving. Maybe the car can do this already but I just haven't figured it out yet.

    Need to pop my AC charging cherry. :pac:


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,976 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    KCross wrote: »
    Have you not watched Bjorn's nerfing videos for Tesla? :confused:
    They nerf due to the very high initial C rates allowed. Model 3 can charge at >3C out of the box and this gradually reduces. Other OEMs restrict you from the start. Which would you prefer.

    redcup342 wrote: »
    Your car couldn't charge at 22kW, like the Zoe or the Model S and X can for example (With optional dual charger)

    I think the Ioniq was 6.8 or 7kw ?

    20 minutes on a 22KW AC Charger would give you more than enough range to get to Cork from Dublin (If your car was capable of accepting that charging speed)

    I'm not saying that isn't a use case, I'm saying the majority of people in Germany prefer to use AC Charging if possible because:

    A. They need a break anyway
    B. The Motorway Chargepoints are usually uncovered and theres nothing to do there. (Holland is much better, Fastned have some decent setups)
    C. It's cheaper (can be even free)
    D. It's opportunistic, they can incorporate something like shopping, dinner, visiting a town into it.
    E. Cost

    Now saying that there are some exceptions, Aldi, IKEA and a few other shops have Free DC Chargers that are between 20 and 50kw .. so since that's free they go for that.

    But Ionity is basically not used that much here really, it's mostly used by people crossing Germany, Dutch/Belgians/French, because they don't have a card for the local chargers or they are unfamiliar with the networks.

    Again .. you'll see Zoes plugged into ABB Chargers here skipping CCS and using AC 22 KW (many reasons for that, cost being one)

    In any case you can have multiple 22KW AC (3-4) for the cost of 1 Rapid DC Charger.

    In any case Audi took feedback from there Customers and there'll be a 22KW option by the end of 2020 :pac:

    https://www.audi.de/de/brand/de/elektromobilitaet/laden.html


    My S can charge at 11kW. 22kW was a paid option until 2016-162. After that the max was 17kW.


    I'm not even sure why this is still ongoing. Stopping for 6-7 hours on AC is not realistic for me and even if they add 22kW (like you're saying for the etron) it would still be 4 hours. Mental.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,976 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    redcup342 wrote: »
    Maybe was a step too far :pac:

    I merely meant if you battery was small to the point where you needed rapid charging every day then maybe a bigger battery would be considered to cover your daily needs before you need to charge overnight.

    Unless you are a taxi driver or something of course :D


    I don't need to rapid charge every day. Not even once a week usually.

    redcup342 wrote: »
    Well it really depends on what you are doing in the Dublin to Cork Example you wouldn't use a Rapid charger because you have enough range to get to Cork then you could charge at a 22kw charger and have enough charge to get home again without having to stop at all (even if you were only in Cork for 4 hours)

    When I do long distance trips here on the continent with the E-Tron or i-Pace I can't do city stops as it takes 9 hours to do a full AC Charge, so unless you are staying in a hotel over night it's kind of useless.

    You're also assuming there are 175kw or 350kw chargers everywhere on the continent :) there aren't, most are 50kw.

    For the moment I would not say the E-Tron or the i-Pace are very comfortable for long trips, for now I take the BMW i3 or the i3s.


    With the supercharger network and Ionity, there are.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,976 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    innrain wrote: »
    Out of the three variables here one is wrong. 20 mins @ 22 kW it gets you at most 50 km. In Tesla S is close to 30 km.
    20 mins at 22kW would give me 7.3kWh. Or enough to drive ~25km of motorway.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,946 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    redcup342 wrote: »
    Well it really depends on what you are doing in the Dublin to Cork Example you wouldn't use a Rapid charger because you have enough range to get to Cork then you could charge at a 22kw charger and have enough charge to get home again without having to stop at all (even if you were only in Cork for 4 hours).

    I don't think explaining the concept of destination charging is necessary on a thread about Ionity charging fees & tips.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,224 ✭✭✭Kramer


    redcup342 wrote: »
    For the moment I would not say the E-Tron or the i-Pace are very comfortable for long trips, for now I take the BMW i3 or the i3s.

    God isn't it great all the same to have that choice. "Will I take the Audi, Jag or Bimmer?".

    Why wouldn't you take your Model 3 Performance? That would seem the best option, no?

    :D.

    Apologies mods - only Ionity posts from me in future, I promise.

    My only gripe with Ionity is their pricing & lack of any permanent/reliable option, for Irish EV owners (save Maingau - won't last IMO).

    Tesla charge 29c/kWh for their network (120kW+, minimum), ECars, 27c/kWh, EasyGo similiar (but slower 50kW).
    The market would suggest 35c/kWh would be a fair price for their higher speed units.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,117 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    ELM327 wrote: »
    They nerf due to the very high initial C rates allowed. Model 3 can charge at >3C out of the box and this gradually reduces. Other OEMs restrict you from the start. Which would you prefer.

    What i'd prefer isnt the point. redcup was saying that relying on DC charging alone reduces battery life (which it does) and you said "This is spin and has been proven to have no meaningful difference... "

    Clearly it isnt meaningless or spin..... Tesla (and every OEM) has coded it into their battery management systems.

    What you can argue is how much of an effect it has over the lifetime of the car but you cant say its spin or meaningless.

    It has less of a noticeable effect on the long range cars because they are still more than usable but if you have a short range car you will notice more degradation if you charge exclusively on DC.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,976 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    KCross wrote: »
    What i'd prefer isnt the point. redcup was saying that relying on DC charging alone reduces battery life (which it does) and you said "This is spin and has been proven to have no meaningful difference... "

    Clearly it isnt meaningless or spin..... Tesla (and every OEM) has coded it into their battery management systems.

    What you can argue is how much of an effect it has over the lifetime of the car but you cant say its spin or meaningless.

    It has less of a noticeable effect on the long range cars because they are still more than usable but if you have a short range car you will notice more degradation if you charge exclusively on DC.


    The nerfing doesn't prove what you are saying though.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,946 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    KCross wrote: »
    What i'd prefer isnt the point. redcup was saying that relying on DC charging alone reduces battery life (which it does) and you said "This is spin and has been proven to have no meaningful difference... "

    Clearly it isnt meaningless or spin..... Tesla (and every OEM) has coded it into their battery management systems.

    It's probably one of those interesting semantic questions, does charging a lithium ion battery at high C rates constantly result in higher degradation? The answer is of course yes.

    Does constantly rapid charging an EV with a BMS designed to handle regular rapid charging result in higher degradation? Signs point to no, because the BMS is already doing the hard work (battery gate, throttling etc)


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,976 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    If you have an EV with a good BMS like an Ioniq or a Kona for instance, and you rapid charge between 10% and 90% of the actual gross capacity, I don't think there will be a statistically significant difference in deg over 120k km / 4 years, whether you use AC or DC.

    Now, take a crap BMS like a leaf and you will see a difference as there is no mitigation.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,117 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    ELM327 wrote: »
    Now, take a crap BMS like a leaf and you will see a difference as there is no mitigation.

    Point proven then! :P


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭redcup342


    Kramer wrote: »
    God isn't it great all the same to have that choice. "Will I take the Audi, Jag or Bimmer?".

    Why wouldn't you take your Model 3 Performance? That would seem the best option, no?

    :D.

    Apologies mods - only Ionity posts from me in future, I promise.

    My only gripe with Ionity is their pricing & lack of any permanent/reliable option, for Irish EV owners (save Maingau - won't last IMO).

    Tesla charge 29c/kWh for their network (120kW+, minimum), ECars, 27c/kWh, EasyGo similiar (but slower 50kW).
    The market would suggest 35c/kWh would be a fair price for their higher speed units.

    The E-Tron, i-Pace and i3/i3S are options here with Sixt :) and are quite reasonable when you factor in you don't have to pay for fuel.

    You can also rent the i3 and the Renault ZOE with a company called Star Car.

    There's UFO Rent and a few other local companies doing Teslas (although they are crazy expensive so I never use them) you also have them in Dublin as well I think ?

    I don't think Maingau are going away any time soon.

    I'd point out here I was the one that told you guys about Maingau in the first place :pac: so yes I use Rapid Charging but only when it fits with what I'm doing :)

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=110516488

    Remember that Ionity is relatively small and new, there are a ton of other providers doing rapid chargers up to 175kw, E.ON, EnBW, Lots of local Stadtwerke's, Polyfazer in CZ, Enel X in Italy, Fastned in NL/DE/BE, Sodetrel,Ivizia in France. Allego (all over the place)

    All of their walk up prices are similar or higher than Ionity

    Maingau recently added more networks to their coverage recently, Greenway in Poland will soon be included.

    I think it was a genius marketing trick from Ionity to have a flat 8 euro charge and then go back to charging / kWh. Now everyone knows who they are due to the negative reaction of "oh no now it's a rip off, I have to pay the walk up rate"

    When the walk up rate was already on par with the Market Average, Maingau has been around for ages, I don't really see that changing for the immediate future, they have a lot of leverage since they have a very large customer base and they aren't some mickey mouse startup, they've been around since 1907.

    Now if only they'd stop hogging the free chargers and use their own bloody cards :pac:

    519194.png


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,976 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    KCross wrote: »
    Point proven then! :P
    No.
    Not quite.


    Without mitigation, of course a lithium battery will degrade quicker with fast charging.


    However, the BMS in most Evs mitigates this, so the effect to the end user is no/negligible difference between DC and AC in terms of degradation.


    Arguing that the first point directly correlates to the second, is akin to saying because petrol burns, all cars will burn down that use petrol - ie it disregards the mitigation put in place


  • Registered Users Posts: 193 ✭✭bodgerfederer


    2 of the 4 in Athlone currently not working. 1 says not working 1 says it’s occupied.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 19,006 Mod ✭✭✭✭slave1


    2 of the 4 in Athlone currently not working. 1 says not working 1 says it’s occupied.

    And herein why the hub works, still two working, and at those speeds it’s a splash and dash stop with the right EV.
    You listening eCars?

    My stuff for sale on Adverts inc. EDDI, hot water cylinder, roof rails...

    Public Profile active ads for slave1 (adverts.ie)



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  • Registered Users Posts: 65,331 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    redcup342 wrote: »
    Many people do Dusseldorf - Berlin this way, stop in either Wolfsburg/Magdeburg/Brunswick load up and relax

    This would only be suitable for a very small number of EV owners. You would need:

    1. To stop for several hours. Fair enough if you do some sight seeing / shopping / long lunch / relax

    AND

    2. Your car needs to be able to AC charge at 22kW, very few EVs can do that

    BTW this is exactly what I am going to do now in Dublin, provided I can get an AC charger very close to Stephen's Green :p


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