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IONITY - charging / fees / tips

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,224 ✭✭✭Kramer


    I don't buy the "more expensive than diesel" bit I keep hearing. How often do you charge outside of your home? I know exclusively to these DC charge points it's more expensive than diesel, but who does that?

    Ah come on now Black_Knight............didn't people flock to the free Decathlon AC charge points, even making off with the RFID fobs, because the electricity was FREE :pac:.

    As someone who would make regular use of the high speed Ionity chargers, long regular trips to Belfast etc., it would really sting to have to pay upwards of €50 for a charge :eek:.

    Would a 100kWh owner not feel aggrieved at a €70+ charge fee?

    These Ionity chargers are located on motorways - by their very nature they will be used by frequent, long distance, high speed drivers (120km/h).

    They should be matching Tesla for charging - 35c/kWh would be fair, I think.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,887 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    Kramer wrote: »
    They should be matching Tesla for charging - 35c/kWh would be fair, I think.

    That's pretty much exactly what they are doing, if you buy a car from one of the Ionity member companies and pay the high powered charging fee then you can pay between 30c and 40c a kWh. Now they've decided to provide the membership fee as a monthly payment instead of adding it as a single upfront charge like Tesla do, and rather than applying the fee to every owner, they are allowing you to opt in.

    They've then gone one step further than Tesla and allowed non member companies to access the network albeit without the subsidised pricing.

    I don't necessarily agree with their approach, but you can see the logic behind it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭jordan191


    I don't buy the "more expensive than diesel" bit I keep hearing. How often do you charge outside of your home? I know exclusively to these DC charge points it's more expensive than diesel, but who does that?

    I rarely charge outside my home, my model 3 has a big enough battery and range to travel where I need to but why should it be 8 times more expensive, I understand the equipment is expensive, but surely they're going to put off people using it.... That's my point haven't used ionity once in the past 9 months


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭redcup342


    Cyrus wrote: »
    So is the charge point card effectively useless now ? Electric Ireland and Maingau are the only two worth having or am I missing one ?

    You could go with Tesla :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 862 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty


    Plugsurfing fob and Chargepoint card fit for the bin :-(


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  • Registered Users Posts: 65,202 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    Kramer wrote: »

    64c/kWh is extortionate - madness the only way to not be absolutely fleeced now is by signing up to a German eMSP :rolleyes:.

    Feel free to keep use the public ESB chargers at 50kW max after you wait a few hours for the cars in front of the queue to charge first. Save yourself a tenner :p

    I'd be very happy to pay 64c/kWh on the rare occasion I need to use the fast charging network if that means a very fast charge and no queuing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,116 ✭✭✭BigAl81


    Kramer wrote:
    They should be matching Tesla for charging - 35c/kWh would be fair, I think.

    I charged at Ionity yesterday using the Maingau app / card and was charged about 38 cent per kWh.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,769 ✭✭✭Nedved85


    Once every 6 weeks I'll be doing a trip where I'll need to top up by about 10% in an sr+ to get home with 10% buffer. Let's say 30% for arguments sake.

    30% of an SR+ is 16.5 kwh

    16.5 x 0.39 = €6.43 (maingau)
    16.5 x 0.64 = €10.56 (Charge Point)

    Very happy with the maingau price and fairly ok with the chargepoint price, given the more or less guaranteed access and very fast charging rate.

    Hopefully the Maingau price lasts :)


  • Moderators Posts: 12,371 ✭✭✭✭Black_Knight


    jordan191 wrote: »
    I rarely charge outside my home, my model 3 has a big enough battery and range to travel where I need to but why should it be 8 times more expensive, I understand the equipment is expensive, but surely they're going to put off people using it.... That's my point haven't used ionity once in the past 9 months

    Because of price, or because lack of necessity? If charging is a necessity on a trip, people will pay it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,224 ✭✭✭Kramer


    unkel wrote: »
    Feel free to keep use the public ESB chargers at 50kW max after you wait a few hours for the cars in front of the queue to charge first. Save yourself a tenner :p

    Why would I do that when I can take my 5 series BMW (petrol) to belfast & back, without any need for a stop, for less?

    I'm all for incentivising private companies to enter the charging arena, but this has to be balanced with encouraging people to go green, go electric.

    Limerick to Belfast return, leaving with a fully charged battery would cost:

    €95 (Ionity - 79c/kWh)
    €77 (Chargepoint - 64c/kWh)
    €60 in my petrol 530e
    €45 in a modern diesel

    Does this do anything to encourage the switch to electric?
    No.

    It's a stick that will be used to discourage EV uptake, just as the dealers used the free ESB charging to incentivise sales of Leafs etc.

    As previously said, most people will just not use these very expensive chargers, unless vital & will feel aggrieved that they are being fleeced.

    At present, the only way to not be fleeced is to have knowledge of a German eMSP (Maingau). Is that something we want to encourage? A "Fightclub" situation whereby only those "in the know" can avail of reasonable charging costs?
    I bet Maingau won't keep that pricing too long more either - can't see the other eMSPs being too happy they are being undercut by that much :cool:.

    It's ridiculous that owners or EVs who are members of the Ionity group, BMW, Hyundai/Kia, VW etc. can't avail of reduced costs either, as far as I know, in Ireland, yet :confused:.

    Sin é an rant :pac::pac::pac:.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 65,202 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    Kramer wrote: »
    Why would I do that when I can take my 5 series BMW (petrol) to belfast & back, without any need for a stop, for less?

    You want to do a what, 700km trip without stopping? I hope you are joking.


  • Registered Users Posts: 31,052 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    liamog wrote: »
    Now they've decided to provide the membership fee as a monthly payment instead of adding it as a single upfront charge like Tesla do
    There is no upfront charge with Tesla. I've seen this posted before, but it's nonsense.

    You could equally argue that there is an upfront charge with a VW ID.3 with because VW have invested in it. That would also be nonsense


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,116 ✭✭✭BigAl81


    Kramer wrote:
    Limerick to Belfast return, leaving with a fully charged battery would cost

    €95 (Ionity - 79c/kWh)
    €77 (Chargepoint - 64c/kWh)
    €60 in my petrol 530e
    €45 in a modern diesel

    Does this do anything to encourage the switch to electric? No.

    Ionity is 39 cent with the Maingau app. By your calculation that makes it about 42 euro per trip in an EV, therefore cheaper than your diesel calculation right of the bat.

    Also likely the electric car would have lane keep assist, adaptive cruise control, heated seats etc, so nice features to have on a long motorway trip.

    Take my Ioniq as an example, leaving fully charged as you say, I'd get about 200kms. So I'd still have 530kms to complete the trip. From your calculation above you're allowing 120kWs of electricity. The Ioniq would need less than 90kWs so the cost for this trip is now 35 euro in the electric.

    You also pass three tolls twice on this trip. The electric now has a 75% discount here, so 35 quid plus 3 quid on tolls is 38 quid total for the electric.

    60 euro in your diesel mentioned above plus 12 quid for tolls gives 72 quid.

    38 euro compared to 72 euro on a single trip does do something to encourage the switch I would say.

    Also no DPF, timing belt, oil and filter etc, less tax, quick of the lights etc all good points for the EV too.

    There's plenty of reasons not to go electric, but not trip cost in the scenario above in my opinion.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,887 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    Lumen wrote: »
    There is no upfront charge with Tesla. I've seen this posted before, but it's nonsense.

    Yes there is, it's just included in the purchase price of the car. It's naive to think that it's not being paid for at all by Tesla customers.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 18,860 Mod ✭✭✭✭slave1


    liamog wrote: »
    Yes there is, it's just included in the purchase price of the car. It's naive to think that it's not being paid for at all by Tesla customers.

    Especially the ones with Free Supercharging for life

    My stuff for sale on Adverts inc. outdoor furniture, roof box and EDDI

    Public Profile active ads for slave1 (adverts.ie)



  • Registered Users Posts: 48 elektrik


    well, you do know that with EVERY OTHER CARMAKER you pay thousands just for the marketing ;)

    Tesla probably does take couple grand for supercharger infrastructure, still beats paying couple grand just for commercials as you do with literally every other carmaker.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,224 ✭✭✭Kramer


    Spotted a new Model 3 at the Cashel Ionity charging today, at the only space of the four that wasn't ICE'd :(.

    hp6eMd9.jpg

    Took the pics when I was leaving a short while later & two had left, leaving just the trailer towing guy (he had been there a while).

    V1iL1ru.jpg

    It really doesn't matter how they mark the spaces, people just park/stop where they please. They need to get a private clamping company in - that would rectify the issue :eek:.


  • Registered Users Posts: 31,052 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    liamog wrote: »
    Yes there is, it's just included in the purchase price of the car. It's naive to think that it's not being paid for at all by Tesla customers.
    Ok then. How much is it? Please show your working.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,277 ✭✭✭markpb


    Kramer wrote: »
    Why would I do that when I can take my 5 series BMW (petrol) to belfast & back, without any need for a stop, for less?

    As previously said, most people will just not use these very expensive chargers, unless vital & will feel aggrieved that they are being fleeced.

    You’re right about how these charges will be perceived but you’re wrong about the actual impact. If you look at the total fuel costs for a year, the EV is lightly to be significantly cheaper because most of their annual trips will be charged by night rate electricity or solar. Unless someone is regularly driving beyond the range of their EV, they won’t be paying Ionity very often.

    If you have an EV and ICE, then yes, these charges are likely to make the ICE more attractive for long journeys.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,124 ✭✭✭innrain


    I think we are collateral damage in a war with Tesla SUC. By moving to CCS in Europe Tesla surprised everyone and they had to retaliate. Tesla shown elasticity in thinking which you can't find in the traditional market. (see Nissan). As a small market we don't have any option but to look at providers on the continent. We have only ecarsesb which in a fast charging world moves like a dinosaur, and has more chargers in the UK than here, and easygo which is a micro company with 4 years in business. I really want to believe that they will succeed in negotiating a good value but I'm not naive.
    If the cost of fast charging, it is a strong point in deciding to move to EV, don't. If there are no other arguments to win you like smooth drive, clean air, forward tech, etc, the mere saving in fueling is peanuts. This will only go up and especially at service stations, where you don't pay only for the electricity but for the rapid delivery of it.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 21,785 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Lumen wrote: »
    Ok then. How much is it? Please show your working.


    How are you going to show internal workings?
    Please show the cost of the DC-DC inverter as a portion of the purchase price.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,111 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Lumen wrote: »
    Ok then. How much is it? Please show your working.

    Of course it’s built into the price but it’s a business cost not a “parts” cost.

    As Tesla sell more cars the cost of SuC becomes a smaller % spread across more cars.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭redcup342


    Kramer wrote: »
    Why would I do that when I can take my 5 series BMW (petrol) to belfast & back, without any need for a stop, for less?

    I'm all for incentivising private companies to enter the charging arena, but this has to be balanced with encouraging people to go green, go electric.

    Limerick to Belfast return, leaving with a fully charged battery would cost:

    €95 (Ionity - 79c/kWh)
    €77 (Chargepoint - 64c/kWh)
    €60 in my petrol 530e
    €45 in a modern diesel

    Does this do anything to encourage the switch to electric?
    No.

    It's a stick that will be used to discourage EV uptake, just as the dealers used the free ESB charging to incentivise sales of Leafs etc.

    As previously said, most people will just not use these very expensive chargers, unless vital & will feel aggrieved that they are being fleeced.

    At present, the only way to not be fleeced is to have knowledge of a German eMSP (Maingau). Is that something we want to encourage? A "Fightclub" situation whereby only those "in the know" can avail of reasonable charging costs?
    I bet Maingau won't keep that pricing too long more either - can't see the other eMSPs being too happy they are being undercut by that much :cool:.

    It's ridiculous that owners or EVs who are members of the Ionity group, BMW, Hyundai/Kia, VW etc. can't avail of reduced costs either, as far as I know, in Ireland, yet :confused:.

    Sin é an rant :pac::pac::pac:.

    That's because you are thinking of a DC Rapid Charger like a Petrol Station. It doesn't work that way.

    You use the DC Fast Charging to extend you range for a long distance trip if you need it but ultimately you charge at your destination.

    Charging is opportunistic, I've done > 1000 km trips in an EV with little to no planning and it's actually worked out as less hassle since I didn't need to arse around trying to find parking or finding out how to pay for parking at my destination, just plugged in and walked off.

    Now is the best time to get an EV, take advantage of all the benefits and the free charging. In 2 or 3 years it'll be like the Netherlands and you'll see more model 3s than Ford Mondeos.


  • Registered Users Posts: 31,052 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    ELM327 wrote: »
    How are you going to show internal workings?
    Please show the cost of the DC-DC inverter as a portion of the purchase price.

    My point is that there is no logical basis for saying that cheaper (than Ionity) supercharging makes Teslas more expensive.

    It makes them more valuable, but that's not the same thing.

    The supercharging network has undoubtably increased Tesla sales. Would they have sold a million cars without the supercharger network? Vanishingly unlikely. The more cars Tesla make the lower the development costs per car. It's possible that Tesla have broken even already on the supercharger network investment on this basis, but I don't know whether that's the case, and I don't even know if it's knowable.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,887 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    Lumen wrote: »
    My point is that there is no logical basis for saying that cheaper (than Ionity) supercharging makes Teslas more expensive.

    Try not to take discussion of Tesla so personally, it's not an attack at them to point out that the supercharger network is funded by building in the price to the purchase of each vehicle.
    It's not like anybody is claiming that the Tesla Model 3 is a €20,000 car with a €30,000 fee for the supercharger network


  • Registered Users Posts: 31,052 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    liamog wrote: »
    Try not to take discussion of Tesla so personally, it's not an attack at them to point out that the supercharger network is funded by building in the price to the purchase of each vehicle.
    It's not like anybody is claiming that the Tesla Model 3 is a €20,000 car with a €30,000 fee for the supercharger network

    I'm neither taking anything personally nor attacking. I have completely neutral feelings about Tesla as a company.

    I just don't understand your logic.


  • Registered Users Posts: 65,202 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    liamog wrote: »
    Try not to take discussion of Tesla so personally, it's not an attack at them to point out that the supercharger network is funded by building in the price to the purchase of each vehicle.

    I don't think the cost of free worldwide supercharging for life that came with my car was included in the price of the car :pac:
    redcup342 wrote: »
    Now is the best time to get an EV, take advantage of all the benefits and the free charging. In 2 or 3 years it'll be like the Netherlands and you'll see more model 3s than Ford Mondeos.

    Yep, Model 3 was the best selling car in the Netherlands and in Norway last year. It's currently also the best selling vehicle in California (by far the biggest vehicle market within the USA)


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,887 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    It's pretty straightforward.

    There is a cost in providing the Supercharger network, Tesla do not sell access to the Supercharger network as a separate item, therefore the Supercharger network is funded by the sales of cars.
    There is a cost in providing the Ionity network, the manufacturers instead set it up as a joint venture. They have chosen to sell access to the Ionity network as a separate item with a monthly access fee.

    As far back as 2015, Elon Musk indicated he was willing to share access to the Supercharger network as long as other manufacturers bought in to the maintenance and operating costs. It's largely believed to have failed due to the branding demands. i.e. Tesla wanted to maintain exclusive branding on the Superchargers.
    Realistically, the only way a multi manufacture charging network is going to get successful buy in, is through setting up an independent brand.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,940 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    unkel wrote: »
    I don't think the cost of free worldwide supercharging for life that came with my car was included in the price of the car :pac:



    Yep, Model 3 was the best selling car in the Netherlands and in Norway last year. It's currently also the best selling vehicle in California (by far the biggest vehicle market within the USA)

    norwegians have moved on :p

    https://www.quattrodaily.com/the-audi-e-tron-is-norways-most-popular-ev-for-2020/


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  • Registered Users Posts: 21,785 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Wonder if its because they tow a lot and the etron is the best towing EV


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