Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

Danzy

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

They would be fools to do otherwise. Everyone knows Brexit will be a very costly thing for everyone rich and poor and in the middle, but no one will say it.

However I doubt Brexit will happen anyway. And in a few years, with Corbyn gone to his allotment to tend to his parsnips, there may be a resurgent LP with core values, minus Momentum, sorry Leftie ERG, to worry about anymore.

Brexit does not seem to be an issue much in the election campaign or is it just me?

With a reasonable deal, things will he ok. Nothing indicates they being anything but one of the stronger large economies in Europe in 5 years time, not a major ask.

The Labour party will be hammered in the election, the wingniuts calling for global freedom of movement and many etc etcs won't see their part in it, no they are bearers of the truth and the hope for the people.

It'll be down to Blairities, gammons, white van men, crypto Jew Zionists, chavs, false consciousness...

They'll purge the party so it'll be all on message, making it even less electable or representative.

Labour may well nor survive this as a potential party of Govt.

Kermit.de.frog

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Did the Welsh ever fight for their independence?

I'd imagine there are a good few english people living in Wales who simply see it as an extension of England.

Maybe this explains it somewhat?

They have never wanted independence like the Irish or even the Scots.

With Scotland independence is only a relatively recent desire too.

Neither have been treated that badly in the UK to be perfectly honest which explains it.

Bannasidhe

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Did the Welsh ever fight for their independence?

Yes.
Chap named Owain Glyndwr - the last Welsh Prince of Wales fought long and hard.
People seem to think the treatment of Ireland was unique - it wasn't. The English (who were of Norman descent) practised their conqueror techniques on Wales, tweaked them in Ireland, and implemented them fully in Scotland before moving further afield.

Plantations, mass evictions, penal laws, famine, deliberate destruction of indigenous culture and language, replacement of the ruling class with English (Norman) adventurers (like Strongbow, and the Fitzgeralds, The Roches, The Barrys etc) all happened in Wales and Scotland too but that doesn't fit the Irish nationalist narrative as taught in schools controlled by the Roman Catholic Church. Can't have people knowing that Rome sanctioned English rule twice - to Henry II and 400 years later to Mary I - and that Welsh Methodists and Scottish Presbyterians were treated as badly as Irish Catholics... or that Irish Republicanism was 'invented' by Ulster Scots Presbyterians.

The people who really got the s*itty end of the English stick were the Cornish. Most people don't even know that they are not English.

FunLover18

https://twitter.com/BBCBreaking/status/1193866247332646913?s=19

Eric Cartman

FunLover18 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/BBCBreaking/status/1193866247332646913?s=19

Clever. Means they can blame the electorate when they lose and they dont hurt conservative votes.

Bannasidhe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The people who really got the s*itty end of the English stick were the Cornish. Most people don't even know that they are not English.

that might come as a bit of a shock to Jack Nowell.:pac:

Stop moaning ffs

Have any of our brexit experts from the parallel dimension reported in on how their brexit is going?

Bannasidhe

Aegir wrote: »

that might come as a bit of a shock to Jack Nowell.:pac:

I'm sure if Kernow ever gets to field a team in it's own right he'll be the first to sign up.

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Did the Welsh ever fight for their independence?

From memory, wasn't there an old British tv advert years ago - the British equivalent of that Bord na Móna one with the cailín on the couch and The Dubliner's Marino Waltz playing - promoting British coal that said something like 'Come home to a real fire' and "Move to Wales" was famously appended to it because English settlers were being attacked in Wales at the time?

This inspired the "Come home to a real fire - join the RUC" graffiti (like this from August 1986 in the Six Counties) in the 1980s or early 1990s.

FrancieBrady

Deleted User wrote: »

From memory, wasn't there an old British tv advert years ago - the British equivalent of that Bord na Móna one with the cailín on the couch and The Dubliner's Marino Waltz playing - promoting British coal that said something like 'Come home to a real fire' and "Move to Wales" was famously appended to it because English settlers were being attacked in Wales at the time?

This inspired the "Come home to a real fire - join the RUC" graffiti (like this from August 1986 in the Six Counties) in the 1980s or early 1990s.

Yeh, there were sporadic incidents like that. I was referring to actual full scale attempts like 1916 here.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

From memory, wasn't there an old British tv advert years ago - the British equivalent of that Bord na Móna one with the cailín on the couch and The Dubliner's Marino Waltz playing - promoting British coal that said something like 'Come home to a real fire' and "Move to Wales" was famously appended to it because English settlers were being attacked in Wales at the time?

This inspired the "Come home to a real fire - join the RUC" graffiti (like this from August 1986 in the Six Counties) in the 1980s or early 1990s.

English settlers

They were burning holiday homes because they were miffed at people buying rural properties and not living in them.

davedanon

Danzy wrote: »

With a reasonable deal, things will he ok. Nothing indicates they being anything but one of the stronger large economies in Europe in 5 years time, not a major ask.

That's a questionable assumption, to say the least.

Bannasidhe

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yeh, there were sporadic incidents like that. I was referring to actual full scale attempts like 1916 here.

1916 could hardly be described as 'full scale' to be fair. Complete cock up would be a better description. It was the reaction to 1916 by the British authorities that escalated things to 'full scale'. Keep in mind that Home Rule was a done deal postponed until the end of the war. 1916 was about getting an independent republic and not widely supported at the time. What we ended up with was still Home Rule.

Aegir wrote: »

English settlers

They were burning holiday homes because they were miffed at people buying rural properties and not living in them.

Yes, holiday homes were targeted but you are still downplaying the seriousness of the threat. On the first night of the attacks (13th Dec 1979) 4 separate properties were targeted, 2 in Pembrokeshire and 2 in NW Wales. There were 228 attacks over a 12 year period. Bombs were sent in the post. Estate agents were targeted.

The group claiming responsibility called themselves Meibion Glyndwr (Sons of Glendower). Apart from one prosecution for sending a bomb through the post, no-one has ever been charged with the arson attacks. Know what that means? That means a wall of silence protected them. As it helped protect Irish republicans (still does sadly in the case of Lyra McKee's killers).

Scoff all you like but the potential for escalation was very real and those people are still out there - and I doubt they have changed their minds about Welsh independence. Look how many attempts over how many centuries it took the Irish - people scoffed at those too.

FrancieBrady

Bannasidhe wrote: »

1916 could hardly be described as 'full scale' to be fair. Complete cock up would be a better description. It was the reaction to 1916 by the British authorities that escalated things to 'full scale'. Keep in mind that Home Rule was a done deal postponed until the end of the war. 1916 was about getting an independent republic and not widely supported at the time. What we ended up with was still Home Rule.

Well if not full scale, a 'grand scale' then if all that was planned had happened.

I didn't know attacks in Wales had been so extensive during the period, they must have gotten lost in our own concerns/conflict.

Bannasidhe

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Well if not full scale, a 'grand scale' then if all that was planned had happened.

I didn't know attacks in Wales had been so extensive during the period, they must have gotten lost in our own concerns/conflict.

But even that 'grand plan' was reluctantly put in place only because Connolly made it clear that the Citizen's Army was going ahead with or without the Irish Volunteers.
The narrative we are taught is that Pearse was the power behind the Rising, in fact it was Connolly who desired a kind of socialist republic as he believed that was the only way workers could get protection. The seeds of 1916 were sown in the Lock-Out of 1913.
Connolly - apart from his 'heroic' wounding and the circumstances of his execution has been pretty much downgraded in the history of Irish Independence.

Bannasidhe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Yes, holiday homes were targeted but you are still downplaying the seriousness of the threat. On the first night of the attacks (13th Dec 1979) 4 separate properties were targeted, 2 in Pembrokeshire and 2 in NW Wales. There were 228 attacks over a 12 year period. Bombs were sent in the post. Estate agents were targeted.

The group claiming responsibility called themselves Meibion Glyndwr (Sons of Glendower). Apart from one prosecution for sending a bomb through the post, no-one has ever been charged with the arson attacks. Know what that means? That means a wall of silence protected them. As it helped protect Irish republicans (still does sadly in the case of Lyra McKee's killers).

Scoff all you like but the potential for escalation was very real and those people are still out there - and I doubt they have changed their minds about Welsh independence. Look how many attempts over how many centuries it took the Irish - people scoffed at those too.

I wasn't downplaying the seriousness, I remember it well. I was laughing at the "Attacks on English Settlers" bit. I think Fuaranch was confusing it with 17th century Ulster

FrancieBrady

Bannasidhe wrote: »

But even that 'grand plan' was reluctantly put in place only because Connolly made it clear that the Citizen's Army was going ahead with or without the Irish Volunteers.
The narrative we are taught is that Pearse was the power behind the Rising, in fact it was Connolly who desired a kind of socialist republic as he believed that was the only way workers could get protection. The seeds of 1916 were sown in the Lock-Out of 1913.
Connolly - apart from his 'heroic' wounding and the circumstances of his execution has been pretty much downgraded in the history of Irish Independence.

Agree on Connolly. I think Pearse may have been a bit unhinged tbh. I wonder what the country would have become had men like Connolly survived and led it.

Bannasidhe

Aegir wrote: »

I wasn't downplaying the seriousness, I remember it well. I was laughing at the "Attacks on English Settlers" bit. I think Fuaranch was confusing it with 17th century Ulster

It was framed as an attack on the 'Incomers' - and it did put English people off moving to Wales. An ex of mine was never sure if she was 'lucky' or not that her parents decided not to buy the disused chapel in Wales they had their hearts set on and instead moved to a croft on the Isle of Skye.
Her cut glass upper middle class accent wasn't welcome in Skye - and as she said at least if it had been Wales there would have been closer access to a train out of the place.

Stop moaning ffs

I read somewhere that Brexit was carried in Wales by the sheer amount of retired english people that live there. Dunno how true that might be.

There was an article here about how the influx of English people moving here will affect our future elections. We have a very different media here with nothing like the agenda driven brainwashing drivel the U.K. has but that said even the better educated Brits seem to fall for whatever rubbish is put in front of them and consume it without question.

You’d wonder if they’ll have an effect here in elections to come

ohnonotgmail

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

I read somewhere that Brexit was carried in Wales by the sheer amount of retired english people that live there. Dunno how true that might be.

There was an article here about how the influx of English people moving here will affect our future elections. We have a very different media here with nothing like the agenda driven brainwashing drivel the U.K. has but that said even the better educated Brits seem to fall for whatever rubbish is put in front of them and consume it without question.

You’d wonder if they’ll have an effect here in elections to come

unless they get irish citizenship they can only vote in local and EU elections and i'm not even sure of the latter will still be true when they leave the EU.

Stop moaning ffs

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

I read somewhere that Brexit was carried in Wales by the sheer amount of retired english people that live there. Dunno how true that might be.

There was an article here about how the influx of English people moving here will affect our future elections. We have a very different media here with nothing like the agenda driven brainwashing drivel the U.K. has but that said even the better educated Brits seem to fall for whatever rubbish is put in front of them and consume it without question.

You’d wonder if they’ll have an effect here in elections to come

everyone blames someone else.

The BBC interviewed people in (I think) Newport recently and there were ardent leavers there, some even saying they would swap their traditional labour vote to conservative to make sure it happened.

ohnonotgmail

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

unless they get irish citizenship they can only vote in local and EU elections and i'm not even sure of the latter will still be true when they leave the EU.

British citizens can vote in everything except referendums and presidential elections.

Stop moaning ffs

Aegir wrote: »

British citizens can vote in everything except referendums and presidential elections.

That’s my understanding of it too

Stop moaning ffs

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

That’s my understanding of it too

it is basically reciprocal voting rights

ohnonotgmail

Aegir wrote: »

British citizens can vote in everything except referendums and presidential elections.

Apologies, i was lumping them with the rest of the EU.

Bannasidhe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

1916 could hardly be described as 'full scale' to be fair. Complete cock up would be a better description. It was the reaction to 1916 by the British authorities that escalated things to 'full scale'. Keep in mind that Home Rule was a done deal postponed until the end of the war. 1916 was about getting an independent republic and not widely supported at the time. What we ended up with was still Home Rule.



Yes, holiday homes were targeted but you are still downplaying the seriousness of the threat. On the first night of the attacks (13th Dec 1979) 4 separate properties were targeted, 2 in Pembrokeshire and 2 in NW Wales. There were 228 attacks over a 12 year period. Bombs were sent in the post. Estate agents were targeted.

The group claiming responsibility called themselves Meibion Glyndwr (Sons of Glendower). Apart from one prosecution for sending a bomb through the post, no-one has ever been charged with the arson attacks. Know what that means? That means a wall of silence protected them. As it helped protect Irish republicans (still does sadly in the case of Lyra McKee's killers).

Scoff all you like but the potential for escalation was very real and those people are still out there - and I doubt they have changed their minds about Welsh independence. Look how many attempts over how many centuries it took the Irish - people scoffed at those too.

Very interesting about the Wales thing. Joe Lee, however, wouldn't quite agree with the "The Rising was unpopular" line, even though it is still widely believed. His focus on the evidence for this, or lack thereof, in Politics and Society is well worth reading:

Starting on p. 28 'Public opinion in Ireland was reported hostile to the Rising...'

Bannasidhe

Deleted User wrote: »

Very interesting about the Wales thing. Joe Lee, however, wouldn't quite agree with the "The Rising was unpopular" line, even though it is still widely believed. His focus on the evidence for this, or lack thereof, in Politics and Society is well worth reading:

Starting on p. 28 'Public opinion in Ireland was reported hostile to the Rising...'

Sentiment is one thing. Actual support is quite another. Even the Irish Volunteers were ambivalent so it's hard to stretch that into claiming there was widespread support.
It's like claiming there is widespread support for Irish re-unification. Most people would initially say yes - but many would then pause for thought and begin to find reasons why it may not be a good idea in the short term - better to put it on the aspirational long-finger can kicked to-do list.
A minority would be completely against it.
And another minority would be willing to kill for it.

That was the situation in 1916 - further complicated by the fact that Home Rule was in the can.

Then factor in that over 200k Irishmen were fighting in WWI for the British, 140k as volunteers who enlisted during the conflict - the families of those men were very conflicted. Many saw the Rising as a betrayal.

But I think we should leave this tangent there tbh as it's not really brexxitty.

Igotadose

This farmer in NE England's lit up the twittersphere by laying into Brexit on the BBC. Said Johnson should be in jail, among other things.

https://www.indy100.com/article/farmer-boris-johnson-brexit-little-britain-bishop-auckland-election-9201031

Auguste Comte

Igotadose wrote: »

This farmer in NE England's lit up the twittersphere by laying into Brexit on the BBC. Said Johnson should be in jail, among other things.

https://www.indy100.com/article/farmer-boris-johnson-brexit-little-britain-bishop-auckland-election-9201031

I snotted my coffee when he said "on the night of the referendum we went to bed as Great Britain and woke up as little Britain.

high_king

Igotadose wrote: »

This farmer in NE England's lit up the twittersphere by laying into Brexit on the BBC. Said Johnson should be in jail, among other things.

https://www.indy100.com/article/farmer-boris-johnson-brexit-little-britain-bishop-auckland-election-9201031

Excellent Clip. You gotta love it when by accident, the media types slip up, and real people get a moment to broadcast the actual truth.