Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

FrancieBrady

Aegir wrote: »

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/36/introduction/enacted



BECAUSE NO ONE CAN TELL PARLIAMENT WHAT TO DO. IT IS SOVEREIGN. A POINT YOU SEEM TO MISS, SPECTACULARLY. JUST AS THEY DO NOT HAVE TO APPROVE ANY LEGISLATION THAT IS PROPOSED SUBJECT TO A BORDER POLL




yeah, pretty random ad hominem there that just shows how you spectacularly fail to grasp my point.

None of the above, changes anything Aegir.

You have shown that you
1. Fail to understand what an international agreement lodged in the UN is.
2. Do not know what it means when the HoC enshrines that Agreement and it's obligations in UK law.

You have therefore allowed your heart (which we know supports the union = unionist) rule your head (which should know this simple stuff) here.

FrancieBrady

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Indeed the government will always be bound to implement the result of a border poll. Parliament cannot change that without repudiating the GFA.
Parliament can reject a given deal, but has to be careful that by its actions it does not effectivly cause the British government to be in breach of its obligations to put the result of the referendum into effect. Rejecting a given deal is not likey to have this effect, but rejecting any possible deal would.

A deal between the governments will be presented and will probably be amended (with Dublin's approval).

Aegir is deluding himself if he thinks it is going to work any other way. But who knows, maybe the DUP will hold power at that time...but they will have to break the GFA to repudiate any deal. Which is why they were so against it to begin with...and still are.

Imreoir2

Imreoir2 wrote: »

There is an actual obligation on the British government to agree a deal, intorduce the relevant legislation in parliament and support its ratification. That obligation does not cease to exist if parliament happens to reject a given deal. There is no such obligation in relation to Brexit.

No, but there is legislation to say that the UK is leaving the European Union, So we are in pretty much the same situation we would be in if a border poll indicated that the people wanted a united Ireland. Parliament has told the government to go ahead and do something and come back to us with your proposals so we can vote on them.

Francis originally said that people need to accept that the will of the people isn't the will of Parliament and therefore they should accept that. Fine, but would they accept that is Parliament decided not to agree to pass legislation for a united Ireland?

26000 Elephants

26000 Elephants wrote: »

The GFA and subsequent laws made no attempt to formalise the terms and conditions of a united Ireland - that's a textbook strawman. What it enshrined is the principle that both countries will accept the will and enact legislation to support it, if that proved to be the will of the majority.

Unless I'm mistaken, your whole point is that the UK government could unilaterally refuse to do so simply because - as you cited earlier - constitutionally no parliament can be bound by a predecessor. I've already pointed out the problem with this premise.

THE UK GOVERNMENT IS NOT THE UK PARLIAMENT

The UK government could negotiate a deal in good faith and agree with the Irish government.

That agreement could then be turned down by either, or both, Parliaments. If that were to happen, no one has broken, modified or rescinded the good friday agreement.

FrancieBrady

Aegir wrote: »

No, but there is legislation to say that the UK is leaving the European Union, So we are in pretty much the same situation we would be in if a border poll indicated that the people wanted a united Ireland. Parliament has told the government to go ahead and do something and come back to us with your proposals so we can vote on them.

Francis originally said that people need to accept that the will of the people isn't the will of Parliament and therefore they should accept that. Fine, but would they accept that is Parliament decided not to agree to pass legislation for a united Ireland?

Read the Act you posted, there is no equivalence to the Northern ireland Act 1998 WHICH ENSHRINES THE GFA AND IT'S OBLIGATIONS IN UK LAW.

NOWHERE in the act you posted is an obligation made to respect the will of the people. NOWHERE, and referendums in the UK without Agreements like the GFA, are NON BINDING.

Please stop wasting time and understand the systems.

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A deal between the governments will be presented and will probably be amended (with Dublin's approval).

Aegir is deluding himself if he thinks it is going to work any other way. But who knows, maybe the DUP will hold power at that time...but they will have to break the GFA to repudiate any deal. Which is why they were so against it to begin with...and still are.

Why would the DUP reject a deal that included the whole island rejoining the UK and the Queen becoming head of state?

There is nothing in the GFA to say this couldn't happen and if that were put to the Dáil and they rejected it, are they breaking an international agreement lodged at the UN blah blah blah?

FrancieBrady

Aegir wrote: »

Why would the DUP reject a deal that included the whole island rejoining the UK and the Queen becoming head of state?

There is nothing in the GFA to say this couldn't happen and if that were put to the Dáil and they rejected it, are they breaking an international agreement lodged at the UN blah blah blah?

Why would the government be putting something to the Dáil that it hadn't agreed to?

The DUP will not be negotiating a deal after a border poll, the two governments will.

Are you sure you entirely understand the process here?

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Why would the government be putting something to the Dáil that it hadn't agreed to?

What if they did?

FrancieBrady

Aegir wrote: »

What if they did?

What if they put something to the Dáil they hadn't agreed to?

They would be told No, go back and negotiate something we can vote for. Same as the UK government would be told if they came back with something incompatible.

And that process would repeat until a satisfactory agreement that fulfilled their dual obligations under the GFA and Northern Ireland Act 1998 is reached.
That is why the DUP and to a lesser extent the UUP hate the GFA so much.

The UK parliament can revoke A50 anytime it wishes without consulting the people again. because there is NOTHING enshrined in law to prevent them doing that.

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What if they put something to the Dáil they hadn't agreed to?

no, if the Irish government agreed to rejoin the UK and put it to the Dáil for a vote

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The UK parliament can revoke A50 anytime it wishes without consulting the people again. because there is NOTHING enshrined in law to prevent them doing that.

so what? They can revoke the GFA any time they like. It doesn't mean they should.

Beasty

Order!

Aegir and FrancieBrady, it is quite clear you are not going to agree on this point. Other users can make their own mind up based on the endless tooing and froing between the pair of you - please drop this specific issue now

26000 Elephants

Boris has explicitly blocked publication of the EU referendum - Russian interferance report. They are already on the hook for over spending and lying about it.

You can see how this level of crazy can go on in the US, but surely the UK public should be more circumspect with this sort of thing.

FunLover18

26000 Elephants wrote: »

Boris has explicitly blocked publication of the EU referendum - Russian interferance report. They are already on the hook for over spending and lying about it.

You can see how this level of crazy can go on in the US, but surely the UK public should be more circumspect with this sort of thing.

No doubt it was compiled and written by remainers :rolleyes:

FrancieBrady

Unionism is coalescing in swing seats to protect the 'union' first (how is not at all clear after May and Johnson has thrown them under the bus) and the rest,(mostly, not sure where PBP find themselves atm) are coalescing to remain in the EU.

One hell of an interesting election coming your way!

cryptocurrency

FunLover18 wrote: »

No doubt it was compiled and written by remainers :rolleyes:

Russian interference :rolleyes: only a 7 year old thinks the Russians can swing Brexit and US presidential election votes.

FunLover18

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Russian interference :rolleyes: only a 7 year old thinks the Russians can swing Brexit and US presidential election votes.

Why do you think Johnson has blocked its publication so close to an election? Does that not concern you?

26000 Elephants

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Russian interference :rolleyes: only a 7 year old thinks the Russians can swing Brexit and US presidential election votes.

Was that the conclusion of the report?

pauldla

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Russian interference :rolleyes: only a 7 year old thinks the Russians can swing Brexit and US presidential election votes.

As opposed to thinking BoJo could swing a Brexit deal by Oct 31st....?

FunLover18

Sinn Féin stepping aside in three constituencies and telling their supporters to vote for the pro-remain candidates.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/04/sinn-fein-stand-aside-remain-candidates-three-constituencies-general-election

Tell me how

Actual footage from Jacob's Rees-Mogg at BBC Radio Station this morning.

26000 Elephants

FunLover18 wrote: »

Sinn Féin stepping aside in three constituencies and telling their supporters to vote for the pro-remain candidates.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/04/sinn-fein-stand-aside-remain-candidates-three-constituencies-general-election

It would be gas if Dodds lost his seat!!

I see sheep

Mogg outs himself as a racist, like a lot of his scummy party.

boring accountant

I see sheep wrote: »

Mogg outs himself as a racist, like a lot of his scummy party.

How exactly?

FrancieBrady

Speaking of Moggs.
Not the first time a British establishment figure has tried to rewrite history but it would be interesting to hear his 'take' on the famine here.

I see sheep

boring accountant wrote: »

How exactly?

Says Grenfell Tower victims didn't have the 'common sense' to go against instructions from Fire Service.

Tories couldn't care less about the Grenfell tragedy as it was mostly immigrants, and all working class people, people the Tory party despise.

Rees-Mogg’s guide to Grenfell:

NOT TO BLAME
Tory refusal to pass laws on sprinklers and cladding
Council that cut corners and ignored residents
Outsourcing of management of tower
Cuts to fire brigade
Austerity

TO BLAME
The victims

boring accountant

I see sheep wrote: »

Says Grenfell Tower victims didn't have the 'common sense' to go against instructions from Fire Service.

Tories couldn't care less about the Grenfell tragedy as it was mostly immigrants, and all working class people, people the Tory party despise.

Rees-Mogg’s guide to Grenfell:

NOT TO BLAME
Tory refusal to pass laws on sprinklers and cladding
Council that cut corners and ignored residents
Outsourcing of management of tower
Cuts to fire brigade
Austerity

TO BLAME
The victims

Just listened to it there. That's not quite what he said, but there is an election coming up so we all need to get used to this kind of spin.

26000 Elephants

Rees Mogg is a reprehensible man but having listened to him I'd put it more to uncaring lack of tact rather than overt racism.

He's clueless at being a decent human being and he show it like this.

boring accountant

26000 Elephants wrote: »

Rees Mogg is a reprehensible man but having listened to him I'd put it more to uncaring lack of tact rather than overt racism.

He's clueless at being a decent human being and he show it like this.

That's totally at odds with basically everyone who knows him, including those on the opposite benches.

26000 Elephants

boring accountant wrote: »

That's totally at odds with basically everyone who knows him, including those on the opposite benches.

I dont give a ****, I'm judging him by his actions.

boring accountant

26000 Elephants wrote: »

I dont give a ****, I'm judging him by his actions.

Fair enough. I don't particularly agree with him, his neoliberal policies or his disregard for the Irish question but if every politician was as polite and respectful as him British politics would be a lot more civilised than it is now.