Death knell for petrol and diesel cars?

ethernet

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Good example, plasma was and still is superior to led, they were just too expensive for the ordinary consumer much like an EV is today.

Not sure about that. A major issue was the much higher power consumption and heat they give off.

Cue Hydrogen as the future as it's a lot easier make.

Is it? The bulk of it is just made from gas - yet another fossil fuel - right now. That's before you add in the high cost of building storage stations for it.

The EU, US and Asia are all backing hydrogen yet were going for Lithium. Bad move it's expensive and volatile.

Toyota and co bet on hydrogen - investing millions - but the market is favouring EVs so of course they are disappointed and still pushing hydrogen.

I can't wait to see insurance quotes once EV's become main stream as these battery packs will be need to be fully checked for any damage after a slight fender bender as the chances of them exploding are high.

The batteries are in an enclosure so it's no different to having a fender bender in a combustion car.

A hydrogen fire is a lot easier put out.

As we recently saw: https://www.autoblog.com/2019/06/12/norway-hydrogen-station-explodes-toyota-hyundai-halt-sales/

What are we doing with the million cars were taking off the road, exporting them so some other countries can use them? Begs the question, what's the point. Just do a Cuba on it and ban the import of new cars.

I would hope people give them a good run before - no point switching just for the sake of it as that's just wasteful. But if it's time to upgrade and an EV is a contender, fair enough.

GreeBo

Kristopher Nervous Killer wrote: »

I doubt most people have any interest in park and ride, it’s certainly very unappealing to me compared to driving directly to work and parking right outside the door, having my car close by if needed during the day, having anything I need with me in the car, what if I want to go somewhere in the city after work other than home etc.

And thats fine, but expect to pay for the privilege with congestion charges etc.

is_that_so

Kristopher Nervous Killer wrote: »

I doubt most people have any interest in park and ride, it’s certainly very unappealing to me compared to driving directly to work and parking right outside the door, having my car close by if needed during the day, having anything I need with me in the car, what if I want to go somewhere in the city after work other than home etc.

I use it and did so a lot more in the past. I preferred it most of the time. It beats facing the traffic mess in the city centre even if a car allows you more flexibility for the evening.

adocholiday

I have a 60km commute each way to work, I drive a 2010 diesel car and I intend on driving it until it's dead. I was going to upgrade to an electric when I moved but price, lack of charging options where I work, and the fact that the tech is evolving at a rapid pace completely put me off. 31k for the most basic Hyundai Ioniq electric is madness IMO.

If the government are serious about going green they need to seriously invest in public transport. I'd take a train or bus if it were viable for me, but even though I live a 5 minute drive from a direct train into Dublin the fact that it's a single line with only 2 morning services and 1 viable evening service means that it's not even an option for me. So unless electric vehicles become viable for people outside the cities and/or public transport is massively upgraded, I'll be driving a petrol or diesel car until it is forcefully taken from me.

8-10

Stoner wrote: »

I'm the same, my hybrid is a 141, it's the longest time I've ever had a car for but I'm waiting for the right EV

I'm waiting to buy a house which is the main reason I'm holding off. Once I have a place it's my next priority. Work have already installed chargers in the parking spaces this year which will also help

GreeBo

GreeBo wrote: »

What age are your diesels cars?
All cars are fine when they are new.

My current diesel is two years old but we have diesels in the family from less than a year old to 15 years old and no issues with any of the usual scaremongering issues like dpf etc. The issues are massively exaggerated on this forum.

is_that_so wrote: »

I use it and did so a lot more in the past. I preferred it most of the time. It beats facing the traffic mess in the city centre even if a car allows you more flexibility for the evening.

I don’t have traffic issue as my hours are flexible so I never travel into the city before 9:15 am or so when most of the traffic has gone. Same in the evening, never leave work before 6 and it’s generally closer to 7pm so no traffic issues.

8-10

Kristopher Nervous Killer wrote: »

I don’t have traffic issue as my hours are flexible so I never travel into the city before 9:15 am or so when most of the traffic has gone. Same in the evening, never leave work before 6 and it’s generally closer to 7pm so no traffic issues.

How far are you driving each way?

jmayo

GreeBo wrote: »

What age are your diesels cars?
All cars are fine when they are new.

I drive a 12 year old diesel and have had it for 8 years, the one before that was 7 years old, and the one before that was 11 years old when I got rid of it.

Now yes they may be smoky on start up. Actually the 7 year old one was very smoky when the engine blew and the injectors went into meltdown.

But I am not having any impact on environment on creation of brand spanking new cars every few years.

And I am not also buying new electric battery powered goods every year or two just so that I can claim I have the latest gizmo.

What environmental impact is one having if they are going out every other year and buying new devices and now new cars that have fancy hitech rare earth mineral batteries ?
How much of the worlds salt flats are going to be left, how many more heavily polluted areas are we going to see in Tibet ?

BTW if they are talking about phasing out fossil fuels by 2030 how are they going to construct and maintain all these necessary wind farms ?
How will they power the ships and trucks necessary in the construction of these wind farms ?

namloc1980

phill106 wrote: »

Isn't it as easy as that though? Don't the majority of petrol stations ( actually will we need to rename them?!) have at least one electric charging point?

I dont have an ev at the moment, but am considering it. Live in shannon, which as towns go isnt the largest, doesnt even make top 20 in population.
From what i can see, there is 2 public charging spaces, one at topaz, one at gardai station.

Would the issue be the slow charging time vs traditional fuel, occupying the points for much longer times?

An EV makes sense for me in that I don't have a long commute and don't do long journeys. However I have no private parking space so can't install a charger at home. The public network is too sporadic and frankly unreliable to be relied upon exclusively. Not to mention the cars hogging the few available public chargers for hours on end. I'm sure it'll get better but there needs to be enormous steps forward to make EVs viable for people who can't have home charging.

CoBo55

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

The government were hammered in local elections and Greens reaped the benefits less than a month ago. So typically the knee jerk reactionary government drummed up this climate change document with no costing or proper planning. They threw out a few dates for when they want to have certain measure implemented but its all bull****. Nothing, NOTHING has ever ran on time in this country, every successive government has failed abysmally reaching targets/dates in relation to climate change and this is going to be no different.

They cant declare a ban on petrol/diesel cars in 11 years when so far to date they have spent next to zero on EV charging points, public transport, cycling infrastructure etc etc in the last decade. Its a ridiculous pipe dream to try and win back voters before the next GE and more about increasing taxes than anything else.

Besides I believe FG are finished in government in the next GE especially if that idiot Leo remains in charge.

Best post of the thread. You're spot on.

namloc1980

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

And I'm saying the infrastructure is being rolled out. There is the Ionity network. Lidl are installing charging points in all their stores. Local authorities have to provide hundreds of charging points every year as part of the plan.

Home charging solution for the large numbers of urban dwellers without off street parking is a must to make EVs viable in an urban environment.

Gile_na_gile

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/motors/climate-plan-1m-electric-cars-by-2030-target-does-not-look-realistic-1.3929310

Every new car would have to be electric to make the target....

Obvious set of obvious policies:
1. Programme of adding charger points to lamposts in urban areas with limited private parking.
2. Implement mandated charging points of 20% for all new car parks.
3. Increase budget for infrastructure to install banks of FCPs with charging from ESB itself, as well as Ionity/Tesla etc.
4. Mandated use of EVs for civil service, commercial, where appropriate.
5. Bring EVs to every town and village as a travelling roadshow like done recently in Wexford.
6. Greater state involvement in securing supply of EVs to our island, in collab with UK/NI pending Brexit nonsense.

8-10

8-10 wrote: »

How far are you driving each way?

About 25km each way assuming going directly between work and home, 2 or 3 times a week I wouldn’t go directly home which would extend the distance up to around 30km.

drunkmonkey

Even if we've a million EV's on the road by 2030 there's still going to be more voters driving Diesels and Petrols. Roughly 1.5 million. Let's see how far they can jack fuel prices/ car tax before the yellow jackets come out.

This pretty much nails the bullcrap that is this plan, were already no where near the numbers given for EV's on the road by 2020 https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/motors/climate-plan-1m-electric-cars-by-2030-target-does-not-look-realistic-1.3929310?mode=amp

bk

namloc1980 wrote: »

Home charging solution for the large numbers of urban dwellers without off street parking is a must to make EVs viable in an urban environment.

Actually one of the disappointing upsides of Irelands housing market, is that most people do have their own parking spot.

Compared to most EU countries, we have relatively few apartments and relatively few homes without parking.

That isn't to say that we don't need to do anything for apartment dwellers (which I am myself BTW), etc. Just that there is comparably few of them.

BTW The plan does include two items to help the above:
- 200 new "slow" EV public charging points per year.
- Subsidy for free charging point is being extended to shared apartment parking.

Also the plan mentions changes to planning requirements to make EV charging a requirement for new builds.

GreeBo

adocholiday wrote: »

I have a 60km commute each way to work, I drive a 2010 diesel car and I intend on driving it until it's dead. I was going to upgrade to an electric when I moved but price, lack of charging options where I work, and the fact that the tech is evolving at a rapid pace completely put me off. 31k for the most basic Hyundai Ioniq electric is madness IMO.

Did you actually look at the spec though?
The "most basic" has pretty much what would be top spec in a non EV.

The tech is going to continue to evolve, if you continue to wait you will have paid for a couple of new EVs in running costs on your diesel.

adocholiday wrote: »

If the government are serious about going green they need to seriously invest in public transport. I'd take a train or bus if it were viable for me, but even though I live a 5 minute drive from a direct train into Dublin the fact that it's a single line with only 2 morning services and 1 viable evening service means that it's not even an option for me. So unless electric vehicles become viable for people outside the cities and/or public transport is massively upgraded, I'll be driving a petrol or diesel car until it is forcefully taken from me.

EV's are already viable for people outside of cities.
60KM is nothing to an EV these days.
Kona and Nero do over 400KM to a charge.

It wont be forcibly be taken off you, it will be priced away from you.

GreeBo

jmayo wrote: »

I drive a 12 year old diesel and have had it for 8 years, the one before that was 7 years old, and the one before that was 11 years old when I got rid of it.

Now yes they may be smoky on start up. Actually the 7 year old one was very smoky when the engine blew and the injectors went into meltdown.

But I am not having any impact on environment on creation of brand spanking new cars every few years.

And I am not also buying new electric battery powered goods every year or two just so that I can claim I have the latest gizmo.

What environmental impact is one having if they are going out every other year and buying new devices and now new cars that have fancy hitech rare earth mineral batteries ?
How much of the worlds salt flats are going to be left, how many more heavily polluted areas are we going to see in Tibet ?

BTW if they are talking about phasing out fossil fuels by 2030 how are they going to construct and maintain all these necessary wind farms ?
How will they power the ships and trucks necessary in the construction of these wind farms ?

So you are confirming that your old diesel is polluting and costing you more and more to keep on the road.

I dont think anyone said you have to buy a new car every few years and as for the gizmo comment :rolleyes:

Danzy

only buy Diesels if you are going to drive them in to the ground time wise.

Their resale values are collapsing in many neighbouring countries.

Started here as well this just will speed up an already present trend.

GreeBo

Danzy wrote: »

only buy Diesels if you are going to drive them in to the ground time wise.

Thats just throwing good money after bad if you are commuting long distances.

ShadowHearth

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

You'll have to pry the manual gear stick from my cold dead hand hand before I'll drive an EV. Petrol for ever!!
But seriously what about hydrogen, the cleanest fuel source there is.
The environment impact of producing all these batteries and cars is not being considered at all, we dont seem to have learned from the last cock up when a green government started an idiotic diesel fad.

I am really as far as it could be from politics. I just know there was election or something recently, and the only reason I know it, because all country was plastered in posters. Then I heard the Greens? Won it. First thought I had: wasn't the same party who completely ****ed up last time and made diesel great? How the **** these people are back in power?

One way or another, it's just going to be another increase in tax for us. Not actual fight for better future.
As for next car I am on the fence. One side of me telling me to keep my car and wait out until 2020/2021 and go full electric as by that time there will be more on the market. The other part of me says: soon you won't be able to have cool petrol cars, so go mad now while something is still there! Get Cupra or i30N and have the last good "**** yeah"!!!

sk8board

To come back to the thread title, is the death knell going to sound for petrol and diesel private vehicles - yes i think that's pretty obvious at this stage - however its baffling that people are worrying about making a decision today to buy a diesel Ford Focus for July 1st, when in reality its 2-3 cars down the line they will need to make that call, and then the Gov will have got off their ass and the decision itself won't be a cliff-hanger.

The death knell happens when we replace our national fleet of 2.4 million cars. To put it in perspective, according to beepbeep we have sold just 3,000 EV's since 2014, and maybe half that in imports. Even with monstrous annual growth in EV sales (which i believe will happen), that changeover will still take decades to reach a tipping point.
If every new car sold for the next decade was electric, it would represent 1m of that 2.4m national fleet.

The government aren't going to make changes that affect voters until there is a critical mass of viable EV options for people to purchase. For now, like the rest of us, they're happy to let early adopters spend big bucks on Leafs, Konas, Niros and model 3's, and see how the public opinion reacts.

This is a generational changeover.

BarryD2

jmayo wrote: »

I drive a 12 year old diesel and have had it for 8 years, the one before that was 7 years old, and the one before that was 11 years old when I got rid of it.

Now yes they may be smoky on start up. Actually the 7 year old one was very smoky when the engine blew and the injectors went into meltdown.

But I am not having any impact on environment on creation of brand spanking new cars every few years.

And I am not also buying new electric battery powered goods every year or two just so that I can claim I have the latest gizmo.

What environmental impact is one having if they are going out every other year and buying new devices and now new cars that have fancy hitech rare earth mineral batteries ?
How much of the worlds salt flats are going to be left, how many more heavily polluted areas are we going to see in Tibet ?

BTW if they are talking about phasing out fossil fuels by 2030 how are they going to construct and maintain all these necessary wind farms ?
How will they power the ships and trucks necessary in the construction of these wind farms ?

Service and maintain it and keep it going as long as possible - that is the most responsible Green response. Despite what social media and government policy may be.

There is a massive gap between current use, supply and culture and what is proposed. Anyone who thinks that the EV & Heat Pump options will have the same cost benefit structure going forward is deluded. We pay for energy now and we'll be paying more for it in years to come, whether that's from fossil fuels or other sources.

Danzy

GreeBo wrote: »

Thats just throwing good money after bad if you are commuting long distances.

What I meant was buy Diesel presuming you'll scrap the car, not sell it 2nd hand.

GreeBo

Danzy wrote: »

What I meant was buy Diesel presuming you'll scrap the car, not sell it 2nd hand.

Yeah I know, but running a car into the ground, especially a diesel is going to get very expensive after a while.

Better to buy a new EV now and finance it. Will be cheaper in the long run.

BarryD2 wrote: »

Service and maintain it and keep it going as long as possible - that is the most responsible Green response. Despite what social media and government policy may be.

Possibly the most environmentally responsible thing to do, not sure its a responsible thing on your wallet though.

drunkmonkey

You can't state and EV will be cheaper in the long run, you don't know Depreciation rates on current cars when the next crop start coming next year and you also don't know the cost of Electricity in the future. There's also insurance costs which I think could be off the wall once EV accidents are an every day thing.

ILikeBoats

ShadowHearth wrote: »

The other part of me says: soon you won't be able to have cool petrol cars, so go mad now while something is still there! Get Cupra or i30N and have the last good "**** yeah"!!!

Yes!

Danzy

drunkmonkey wrote: »

You can't state and EV will be cheaper in the long run, you don't know Depreciation rates on current cars when the next crop start coming next year and you also don't know the cost of Electricity in the future. There's also insurance costs which I think could be off the wall once EV accidents are an every day thing.

The last Toyota Diesels are being sold now, the largest car maker in the world, out of that business in last year.

All their Petrols to be hybrid, very shortly.

The Govt announcement on cars is a moot point, the car companies are walking away from Electricity and Diesel.

SleetAndSnow

Danzy wrote: »

The last Toyota Diesels are being sold now, the largest car maker in the world, out of that business in last year.

All their Petrols to be hybrid, very shortly.

The Govt announcement on cars is a moot point, the car companies are walking away from Electricity and Diesel.

Toyota announced they are pushing their fully electric range forward by 5 years 2 weeks or so ago? Not walking away

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-toyota-electric/toyota-speeds-up-electric-vehicle-schedule-as-demand-heats-up-idUSKCN1T806X

InTheShadows

People need to read up on how much damage a new car does to the environment in terms of production be it EV, hybrid, petrol or diesel. My 11 year old I30 Diesel which we bought brand new will be kept by us for another 10 years at the very least. It's the people who don't go out and change car every other year that are really doing the planet a service.

8-10

Kristopher Nervous Killer wrote: »

About 25km each way assuming going directly between work and home, 2 or 3 times a week I wouldn’t go directly home which would extend the distance up to around 30km.

Yeah I do 22km each way. I'd say you wouldn't know yourself in an electric. I go 650km on a 30L petrol tank in my hybrid so fuel costs are way way down. I drive pretty economically which I actually find makes me a safer driver overall. Lower tax and insurance too. Even less going full electric