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Rock on, Rockall! (it's back)

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    #572
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    Remind me which Little Englander or Brexiteer made the speech warning Irish boats away from Rockall?
    Or was it a member of the SNP?

    It might be painted as a Scottish action but questions of sovereignty are a UK matter, not a devolved one. This debate has existed for decades and is a matter for the UK, not Scotland. Sending a representative from the Queen to "claim" an island is as little Englander as you can get I'm afraid. Sturgeon can call herself and honorary member of that group.


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    #573
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,935 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    No that's the secondary question. The first question is around sovereignty of the island as mentioned in the article:



    It's clearly disputed that planting a flag on a rock gives you rights over it.

    As you say the second question refers to whether Rockall is habitable and therefore subject to the 12 mile exclusion. It's clearly not since people have tried to live on it but only managed 42 days.

    Living on it doesn't matter either. You can live on the moon if you have supplies.

    The core point is whether it can 'sustain human habitation'. And it clearly cannot do that.


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    #574
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,935 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    All this talk of "warnings "and Scottish "get back in their box"is very jingoistic and aggressive francie-what has happened to you?

    If I 'warn' a child that they will get burned if they put their hand in a fire, I am being kind...not aggressive.


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    #575
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 27,946 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    PART VIII
    REGIME OF ISLANDS
    Article 121
    Regime of islands
    1. An island is a naturally formed area of land, surrounded by water,
    which is above water at high tide.
    2. Except as provided for in paragraph 3, the territorial sea, the
    contiguous zone, the exclusive economic zone and the continental shelf of an
    island are determined in accordance with the provisions of this Convention
    applicable to other land territory.
    3. Rocks which cannot sustain human habitation or economic life of
    their own shall have no exclusive economic zone or continental shelf

    Thanks for posting that.

    It looks to me that it could be read that Rockall is an island with a territorial sea and contiguous zone... not sure what that is exactly.
    As a rock it does not warrant an EEZ or shelf.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #576
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    I'm not a Sinn Fein supporter or anything but looking at a list of land disputes in regards to Britain and it makes you wonder will they ever learn?

    Right now they ones that leap to mind are:
    • Northern Ireland
    • Gibraltor
    • Falklands

    At least two of these have resulted in loss of life. Do they every think that they look like the bad guys at this stage?


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    #577
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 27,946 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    I'm not a Sinn Fein supporter or anything but looking at a list of land disputes in regards to Britain and it makes you wonder will they ever learn?

    Right now they ones that leap to mind are:
    • Northern Ireland
    • Gibraltor
    • Falklands

    At least two of these have resulted in loss of life. Do they every think that they look like the bad guys at this stage?

    You could also argue...
    Good job they had Gibraltar in ww2.
    Falklands was due to Argentine dictatorship... we didnt want a war but they invaded.
    IRA were the bad guys... we sent army in to restore order.

    So without getting into the actual rights and wrongs of each situation... thats why it doesnt occur to them.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #578
    RobMc59
    Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    I'm not a Sinn Fein supporter or anything but looking at a list of land disputes in regards to Britain and it makes you wonder will they ever learn?

    Right now they ones that leap to mind are:
    • Northern Ireland
    • Gibraltor
    • Falklands

    At least two of these have resulted in loss of life. Do they every think that they look like the bad guys at this stage?

    Ireland spitting its dummy out over this is heaven sent for Westminster,fair weather friends are no good to Scotland-anyone considering independence and an alliance with Ireland will be horrified Imo.
    The list you posted all have one thing in common,they're all still British.


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    #579
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    You could also argue...
    Good job they had Gibraltar in ww2.
    Falklands was due to Argentine dictatorship... we didnt want a war but they invaded.
    IRA were the bad guys... we sent army in to restore order.

    So without getting into the actual rights and wrongs of each situation... thats why it doesnt occur to them.

    or to put it even simpler, the majority of people that live there want to retain the status quo, which trumps anyone else's claim.


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    #580
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Aegir wrote: »
    or to put it even simpler, the majority of people that live there want to retain the status quo, which trumps anyone else's claim.

    And with whom do the people living on Rockall or the Rockhall plateau want to be part of?

    You'd want to have some neck to claim a big stone out in the Atlantic and expect everyone for a 12 mile radius to back off.


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    #581
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,281 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    You could also argue...
    Good job they had Gibraltar in ww2.
    Falklands was due to Argentine dictatorship... we didnt want a war but they invaded.
    IRA were the bad guys... we sent army in to restore order.

    So without getting into the actual rights and wrongs of each situation... thats why it doesnt occur to them.

    and shoot a few people in the back for good measure


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    #582
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,281 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    Ireland spitting its dummy out over this is heaven sent for Westminster,fair weather friends are no good to Scotland-anyone considering independence and an alliance with Ireland will be horrified Imo.
    The list you posted all have one thing in common,they're all still British.

    when did that happen?


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    #583
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    lawred2 wrote: »
    and shoot a few people in the back for good measure

    With friends like them!


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    #584
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    You could also argue...
    Good job they had Gibraltar in ww2.
    Falklands was due to Argentine dictatorship... we didnt want a war but they invaded.
    IRA were the bad guys... we sent army in to restore order.

    So without getting into the actual rights and wrongs of each situation... thats why it doesnt occur to them.

    You could argue that O but it would be of a mindset of colonial simplicity. I can understand one or two disputes as such but Britain seems to jump at the chance for them.

    It's not sustainable to have colonies in far flung places in the world anymore.

    The last point:
    IRA were the bad guys... we sent army in to restore order.

    Hardly worked out. The army just shot innocent people, it ignored the reasons for unrest - i.e loyalist terrorising Catholics and finally the elected government of the region is the political wing of the provisional IRA. The army hardly did a stellar job. Hence the fact that there's lessons to be learned.


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    #585
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users Posts: 16,981 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    Some facts
    1. Rockall is situated in the UK EEZ (it does not have an EEZ of its own)
    2. Rockall is claimed by the UK as territory and the 12nm area around it is declared by the UK territorial waters. Internally in the UK, Rockall has been allocated to Scotland
    3. Fishery protection is devolved to Scotland
    4. Three countries dispute the UK claim and do not see the 12nm territorial area as valid therefore under the CFP, they can fish there

    Here is the Irish Times podcast with has a Glasgow based Irish journalist on it and this gives you the context of what is happening


    https://twitter.com/IrishTimesAudio/status/1138791831259504641

    Some facts


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    #586
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,935 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    You could argue that O but it would be of a mindset of colonial simplicity. I can understand one or two disputes as such but Britain seems to jump at the chance for them.


    Indeed. There were articles about how the diplomatic corp almost invited Argentina to invade back in the day. Thatcher used that whole escapade to bolster her falling popularity. The lives it cost, collateral damage.
    Not hard to see where this is coming from, a jolly good old excursion for the rulers of the wave would suit Westminster now the UK is in unprecedented chaos, probably hoping the EU wade in too.


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    #587
    RobMc59
    Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    lawred2 wrote: »
    when did that happen?

    Just as soon as Scotland had the audacity to stick up for their own fishermens livelihoods.


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    #588
    RobMc59
    Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Indeed. There were articles about how the diplomatic corp almost invited Argentina to invade back in the day. Thatcher used that whole escapade to bolster her falling popularity. The lives it cost, collateral damage.
    Not hard to see where this is coming from, a jolly good old excursion for the rulers of the wave would suit Westminster now the UK is in unprecedented chaos, probably hoping the EU wade in too.

    Correct me if I'm wrong but it was Ireland who resorted to "gunboat diplomacy"earlier this year when they sent a warship to arrest two small NI fishing boats off Dundalk bay?


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    #589
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,281 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    Just as soon as Scotland had the audacity to stick up for their own fishermens livelihoods.

    So no example of where this 'dummy' was spat out no?


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    #590
    RobMc59
    Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    lawred2 wrote: »
    So no example of where this 'dummy' was spat out no?

    Turning on Scotland isn't very clever if Ireland wants to be friends down the line is it?


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    #591
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,281 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    Turning on Scotland isn't very clever if Ireland wants to be friends down the line is it?

    So no, you don't have any examples then. Grand.


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    #592
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,935 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    Correct me if I'm wrong but it was Ireland who resorted to "gunboat diplomacy"earlier this year when they sent a warship to arrest two small NI fishing boats off Dundalk bay?

    No, Ireland acted on the law as it stood at the time. The law has since been amended.

    The Scots/UK would be breaking international laws of the sea to enforce this megaphone rant.


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    #593
    RobMc59
    Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    No, Ireland acted on the law as it stood at the time. The law has since been amended.

    The Scots/UK would be breaking international laws of the sea to enforce this megaphone rant.

    Oh dear...justifying gunboat diplomacy...I'm shocked at your double standards.


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    #594
    Working class heroes
    Registered Users Posts: 3,507 ✭✭✭Working class heroes


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    Correct me if I'm wrong but it was Ireland who resorted to "gunboat diplomacy"earlier this year when they sent a warship to arrest two small NI fishing boats off Dundalk bay?

    Dundalk is habitable. Just....

    Racism is now hiding behind the cloak of Community activism.



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    #595
    RobMc59
    Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    lawred2 wrote: »
    So no, you don't have any examples then. Grand.

    The example is all the wailing and whinging to the EU which is embarrassing as well as an example of spitting out a dummy.


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    #596
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,935 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    Oh dear...justifying gunboat diplomacy...I'm shocked at your double standards.

    Justifying? Ireland acted within the law at the time. If it was unlawful please show us where?

    If a complaint is made our security forces have to act.


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    #597
    Das Reich
    Registered Users Posts: 736 ✭✭✭Das Reich


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    You could also argue...
    Good job they had Gibraltar in ww2.
    Falklands was due to Argentine dictatorship... we didnt want a war but they invaded.
    IRA were the bad guys... we sent army in to restore order.

    So without getting into the actual rights and wrongs of each situation... thats why it doesnt occur to them.

    That dictatorship was set there in cold war by a golpe supported by both USA ("ally" of England) and USSR. They wanted to remove the peronists so they could both fight for control. Same happened in Brazil in the 50's when they removed Vargas and any sort of nationalism. Then the USSR sent loads of Czechoslovakian spies and USA spent million with media propaganda on the media alarming about the "communist danger".

    By all those regimes went out of hand with Geisel in 1975. He started to trade with communist countries as Hungary or China. Then Brazil voted against the new settlements of Israel in palestinian territory, the only country to vote against on UN. This pissed off USA that thought they would do anything ordered. Pinochet in Chile also turned to be a nationalist and not a submissive, increasing the relation with other pacific countries like Japan and Cina. End of the story for the regimes was the Malvines War, where the regimes were replaced by weak and corrupted democracies, with large debt. This was much more efficient.


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    #598
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,281 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    The example is all the wailing and whinging to the EU which is embarrassing as well as an example of spitting out a dummy.

    The wailing and whinging to the EU?

    Ireland is a member of the EU. I presume you mean discussed a fisheries matter with fellow EU member states.

    However I'll let you have it your way.. it is a known British affliction to speak of the EU as a foreign entity... Can you provide the sources that you have for these wailing and whingings 'to' the EU? Be handy to read the content too.


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    #599
    RobMc59
    Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    lawred2 wrote: »
    The wailing and whinging to the EU?

    Ireland is a member of the EU. I presume you mean discussed a fisheries matter with fellow EU member states.

    However I'll let you have it your way.. it is a known British affliction to speak of the EU as a foreign entity... Can you provide the sources that you have for these wailing and whingings 'to' the EU? Be handy to read the content too.

    I saw it on RTE news yesterday evening.Also,there's nothing wrong with Scotland protecting its fish stocks from unscrupulous and irresponsible fishing practices...
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/eu-critical-of-severe-weaknesses-in-ireland-s-fisheries-controls-1.3686231


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    #600
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Deleted User wrote: »
    And with whom do the people living on Rockall or the Rockhall plateau want to be part of?

    I don't know, have you tried phoning them?


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    #601
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,281 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    I saw it on RTE news yesterday evening.Also,there's nothing wrong with Scotland protecting its fish stocks from unscrupulous and irresponsible fishing practices...
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/eu-critical-of-severe-weaknesses-in-ireland-s-fisheries-controls-1.3686231

    Who said there was?

    You jumped in with claims of Ireland spitting a dummy out. Which evolved into wailing and whinging.

    None of which you can back up. Official Ireland has not 'spat' anything out nor gone wailing to anyone. The only statement from the Taoiseach was that a rock in middle of nowhere is not something for Ireland and Scotland to fall out over.

    Ireland hasn't changed position on Rockall either by the way. The position held is decades old.

    It wouldn't surprise me if Irish trawlers were acting without scruples by the way.. fishing in general is unscrupulous.


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