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Rock on, Rockall! (it's back)

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    #542
    Skylinehead
    Registered Users Posts: 11,690 ✭✭✭✭Skylinehead


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    RTE must be using Irish miles for measuring from Donegal and imperial miles for Scotland...
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_measure
    Deleted User wrote: »
    Understandable considering - the relative measure for each country. Makes sense.

    Can yis not read? It says nautical miles in the article...


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    #543
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 27,941 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Skylinehead wrote: »
    Can yis not read? It says nautical miles in the article...

    Fake miles though as we know they dont add up.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #544
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 27,941 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    we haven't used irish miles for 200 years.

    Last time RTE measured the distances apparently... or how else are they so far wrong !

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #545
    janfebmar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    RTE is not a reputable news source when they mislead over basic facts like that.


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    #546
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,157 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    Last time RTE measured the distances apparently... or how else are they so far wrong !

    they are not wrong strictly. what they wrote is misleading because they used different units for the two distances.


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    #547
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,934 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Why all the fussing about 'distance'. As janfebmar said distance is not the issue, the Canaries would belong to Morrocco and the Malvinas would belong to Argentina if 'distance' was the deciding factor.

    Here is the deciding factor, and the reason Scotland is climbing back into it's box:

    The United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea states, "Rocks which cannot sustain human habitation or economic life of their own shall have no exclusive economic zone or continental shelf."

    Ireland's position is the legal and lawful one.


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    #548
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 27,941 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Why all the fussing about 'distance'. As janfebmar said distance is not the issue, the Canaries would belong to Morrocco and the Malvinas would belong to Argentina if 'distance' was the deciding factor.
    Here is the deciding factor, and the reason Scotland is climbing back into it's box:
    The United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea states, "Rocks which cannot sustain human habitation or economic life of their own shall have no exclusive economic zone or continental shelf."
    Ireland's position is the legal and lawful one.

    If they can still have a territorial sea it is important.
    Also, it's why Ireland has no ownership claim on Rockall.

    I'm not sure what the exact legal meaning of "economic life of their own" is. If the area is full of fish, even if you can't really inhabit it, does it have an economic life?

    The fussing about distance is also important in the context of RTE's reporting.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #549
    firemansam4
    Registered Users Posts: 1,689 ✭✭✭firemansam4


    Yes talk about this rock being a few miles closer to Scotland is beside the point.
    The fact that a lunitic camped on that rock for a few weeks does not class it as being habitable.
    It is not habitable and Irish fishing vessels are clearly well within there rights to fish in the waters around it.

    This is just some saber ratling from Scottish ministers, it will all be forgotten about soon enough and Irish fishing vessels will continue to fish in these waters.
    The end.


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    #550
    RobMc59
    Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    firemansam4 wrote: »
    Yes talk about this rock being a few miles closer to Scotland is beside the point.
    The fact that a lunitic camped on that rock for a few weeks does not class it as being habitable.
    It is not habitable and Irish fishing vessels are clearly well within there rights to fish in the waters around it.

    This is just some saber ratling from Scottish ministers, it will all be forgotten about soon enough and Irish fishing vessels will continue to fish in these waters.
    The end.

    It would be terrible if the taoiseach had to make a second embarrassing climbdown.
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/impounding-ni-registered-fishing-boats-regrettable-varadkar-1.3811547


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    #551
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 27,941 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    firemansam4 wrote: »
    Yes talk about this rock being a few miles closer to Scotland is beside the point.
    The fact that a lunitic camped on that rock for a few weeks does not class it as being habitable.
    It is not habitable and Irish fishing vessels are clearly well within there rights to fish in the waters around it.

    It depends on whether you are talking about within 12miles or 200miles of it.
    Within 200 miles yes.
    Within 12 miles, maybe, could be one for the lawyers.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #552
    janfebmar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    firemansam4 wrote: »
    The fact that a lunitic camped on that rock for a few weeks does not class it as being habitable.
    It is not habitable and Irish fishing vessels are clearly well within there rights to fish in the waters around it.

    .
    It was habitable to the fellow who stayed there for 6 weeks , and to the people who stayed there for longer since. It is also habitable to lots of wildlife.


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    #553
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,934 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    It would be terrible if the taoiseach had to make a second embarrassing climbdown.
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/impounding-ni-registered-fishing-boats-regrettable-varadkar-1.3811547

    That was not a bit embarrassing, it was a well timed warning about what happens in the real world if the UK goes ahead with it's fantasy no consequences Brexit.


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    #554
    firemansam4
    Registered Users Posts: 1,689 ✭✭✭firemansam4


    janfebmar wrote:
    It was habitable to the fellow who stayed there for 6 weeks , and to the people who stayed there for longer since. It is also habitable to lots of wildlife.


    You are grasping at straws now, and counting wildlife as a reason for it being habitable?
    None the less I still think this will be dropped and Irish fishing vessels will continue to fish in these waters for many years to come.

    You really need to take off your British tinted glasses and see the reality of the situation for what it is.


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    #555
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,934 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    janfebmar wrote: »
    It was habitable to the fellow who stayed there for 6 weeks , and to the people who stayed there for longer since. It is also habitable to lots of wildlife.

    It cannot 'sustain human habitation', do your basic research jan.

    From the UNCLOS preamble

    3. Rocks which cannot sustain human habitation or economic life of their own shall have no exclusive economic zone or continental shelf


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    #556
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 27,941 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    From the UNCLOS preamble
    3. Rocks which cannot sustain human habitation or economic life of their own shall have no exclusive economic zone or continental shelf

    What does it say about the 12 mile territorial waters?

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #557
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,934 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    What does it say about the 12 mile territorial waters?

    It does not allow any claimant to establish an economic zone or lay exclusive claim to the resources.


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    #558
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 27,941 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    It does not allow any claimant to establish an economic zone or lay exclusive claim to the resources.

    That's not quite the same thing as fishing in the territorial waters though, or is it?

    What you quoted would make it clear that the following does not apply to Rockall:
    Economic zone is up to 200 miles.
    Continental shelf resources.

    I'm asking specifically about the territorial waters of 12 miles surrounding Rockall. Territorial waters is a narrower and different concept in law to Exclusive Economic Zone.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #559
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    I have to say I think the distance thing is a red herring. Ireland isn't making a claim on the island. Previously Britain has "claimed land" that is in closer proximity to other countries. I agree with Simon Coveney's view on this:
    "What we do not accept is that a very small rock constitutes a sovereign territory that can have a 12-mile limit set around it," he said."That is what the Scottish government is claiming and we do not accept that."

    The UK "claimed" it in 1955 by putting a flag on it. It's 2019, not the height of the British Empire. Britain's in a much weaker position as they're currently negotiating with the EU in an attempt to prevent their economy getting destroyed. This colonial land grab shouldn't be taken seriously.

    They UK are also in dispute about Lough Foyle, the lake lying between Derry and Donegal. Ireland has a reasonable position of claiming half of the lake while Britain says it owns all of it. It's a bit pathetic at this stage.


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    #560
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,934 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    That's not quite the same thing as fishing in the territorial waters though, or is it?

    What you quoted would make it clear that the following does not apply to Rockall:
    Economic zone is up to 200 miles.
    Continental shelf resources.

    I'm asking specifically about the territorial waters of 12 miles surrounding Rockall. Territorial waters is a narrower and different concept in law to Exclusive Economic Zone.

    You cannot declare a 12 mile zone around outcrops...it's very simple.


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    #561
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 27,941 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    You cannot declare a 12 mile zone around outcrops...it's very simple.

    If it's so simple, where is the section of UN law stating that such 'rocks' don't have territorial waters?
    It's clear the UN law intended that the rocks didn't get EEZs or continental shelf rights.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #562
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,934 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    I have to say I think the distance thing is a red herring. Ireland isn't making a claim on the island. Previously Britain has "claimed land" that is in closer proximity to other countries. I agree with Simon Coveney's view on this:



    The UK "claimed" it in 1955 by putting a flag on it. It's 2019, not the height of the British Empire. Britain's in a much weaker position as they're currently negotiating with the EU in an attempt to prevent their economy getting destroyed. This colonial land grab shouldn't be taken seriously.

    They UK are also in dispute about Lough Foyle, the lake lying between Derry and Donegal. Ireland has a reasonable position of claiming half of the lake while Britain says it owns all of it. It's a bit pathetic at this stage.

    And they will lose in any court of Arbitration.
    Whether they would ignore that as they have the International COurt ruling on the Chagos Islands is another matter altogether.

    Little Englanders and belligerent Brexiteers think they are a law on to themselves.


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    #563
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    That's not quite the same thing as fishing in the territorial waters though, or is it?

    What you quoted would make it clear that the following does not apply to Rockall:
    Economic zone is up to 200 miles.
    Continental shelf resources.

    I'm asking specifically about the territorial waters of 12 miles surrounding Rockall. Territorial waters is a narrower and different concept in law to Exclusive Economic Zone.

    But where does the territorial claim come into it? What are the laws about claiming a rock in the sea? Who can claim it and what happens if it's disputed?


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    #564
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    And they will lose in any court of Arbitration.
    Whether they would ignore that as they have the International COurt ruling on the Chagos Islands is another matter altogether.

    Little Englanders and belligerent Brexiteers think they are a law on to themselves.

    I live in England and the amount of people who don't understand that "claiming" something by putting a flag on it might be something disputed by other countries is fascinating.


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    #565
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 27,941 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    But where does the territorial claim come into it? What are the laws about claiming a rock in the sea? Who can claim it and what happens if it's disputed?

    All fair questions, The Journal's expert thinks the UK would have a strong claim to it.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/rockall-explainer-2-4675451-Jun2019/

    The question is whether a rock gets the narrow 12 mile maritime zone AND even if that is granted, whether Ireland could be excluded or would we get 'grandfathered' access to it.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #566
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 27,941 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Little Englanders and belligerent Brexiteers think they are a law on to themselves.

    Remind me which Little Englander or Brexiteer made the speech warning Irish boats away from Rockall?
    Or was it a member of the SNP?

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #567
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,934 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    Remind me which Little Englander or Brexiteer made the speech warning Irish boats away from Rockall?
    Or was it a member of the SNP?

    FFS..they were looking for the votes of Brexiteers, Scottish fishermen who think there are multitudes of sea unicorns waiting to make them rich if they can just get out of the EU.:rolleyes: It's calling 'aping' or 'acting'.


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    #568
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,934 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    All fair questions, The Journal's expert thinks the UK would have a strong claim to it.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/rockall-explainer-2-4675451-Jun2019/

    The question is whether a rock gets the narrow 12 mile maritime zone AND even if that is granted, whether Ireland could be excluded or would we get 'grandfathered' access to it.

    PART VIII
    REGIME OF ISLANDS
    Article 121
    Regime of islands
    1. An island is a naturally formed area of land, surrounded by water,
    which is above water at high tide.
    2. Except as provided for in paragraph 3, the territorial sea, the
    contiguous zone, the exclusive economic zone and the continental shelf of an
    island are determined in accordance with the provisions of this Convention
    applicable to other land territory.
    3. Rocks which cannot sustain human habitation or economic life of
    their own shall have no exclusive economic zone or continental shelf


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    #569
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,157 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    PART VIII
    REGIME OF ISLANDS
    Article 121
    Regime of islands
    1. An island is a naturally formed area of land, surrounded by water,
    which is above water at high tide.
    2. Except as provided for in paragraph 3, the territorial sea, the
    contiguous zone, the exclusive economic zone and the continental shelf of an
    island are determined in accordance with the provisions of this Convention
    applicable to other land territory.
    3. Rocks which cannot sustain human habitation or economic life of
    their own shall have no exclusive economic zone or continental shelf

    according to 3 rockall does not have exclusive economic zone or continental shelf and i dont think anybody disagrees with that. well at least i hope they dont. But what about the territorial sea around it?


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    #570
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    All fair questions, The Journal's expert thinks the UK would have a strong claim to it.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/rockall-explainer-2-4675451-Jun2019/

    The question is whether a rock gets the narrow 12 mile maritime zone AND even if that is granted, whether Ireland could be excluded or would we get 'grandfathered' access to it.

    No that's the secondary question. The first question is around sovereignty of the island as mentioned in the article:
    In the 1950s, the British navy set out to annex the islet and claim it as part of its own territory in a bid to extend the UK’s shoreline as far into the Atlantic as possible — for fishing and seabed exploration benefits.

    The claim to ownership, however, has been disputed in the decades since by Iceland, Denmark (on behalf of the Faroe Islands) and Ireland – all of which reject the British territorial claim to the island.

    It's clearly disputed that planting a flag on a rock gives you rights over it.

    As you say the second question refers to whether Rockall is habitable and therefore subject to the 12 mile exclusion. It's clearly not since people have tried to live on it but only managed 42 days.


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    #571
    RobMc59
    Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    That was not a bit embarrassing, it was a well timed warning about what happens in the real world if the UK goes ahead with it's fantasy no consequences Brexit.

    All this talk of "warnings "and Scottish "get back in their box"is very jingoistic and aggressive francie-what has happened to you?


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