Homophobic attack on London bus - mod warning, please see OP

is it a godwin if i throw in a reichstag fire reference here?

(dont believe this was staged, but i also think its allowable to question any event that is so obviously used as a platform/propaganda tool)

batgoat

Kimsang wrote: »

I am not claiming their house wasn't burned down. Clearly there was some fire, and damage afterwards. What is in question is whether the arsonists intended to burn the house down because of who lived in there and whether in any way they provoked the arsonists. I believe this is the question people are more concerned with.

Just looked at that list of questions you wanted answers for, don't think a single one related to whether there was a homophobic motivation. Every one did try to imply that it never happened. Everything from saying they weren't traumatised enough to questioning numbers of assailants. You also referenced the Smollett case so it's pretty clear that you were questioning if the attack occurred.

You just changed your line of argument after I mentioned the fact that the assault was on CCTV. Given what led up to attack, there's every indication that a mixture of homophobia and misogyny made these women targets.

Kimsang

batgoat wrote: »

Just looked at that list of questions you wanted answers for, don't think a single one related to whether there was a homophobic motivation. Every one did try to imply that it never happened. Everything from saying they weren't traumatised enough to questioning numbers of assailants. You also referenced the Smollett case so it's pretty clear that you were questioning if the attack occurred.

You just changed your line of argument after I mentioned the fact that the assault was on CCTV. Given what led up to attack, there's every indication that a mixture of homophobia and misogyny made these women targets.

Again, questions are not arguments. Why can't you speak within the realms of my analogy? You really have strong ideological lenses in those glasses if you think those questions as 'implying that it never happened'.

I reference the Jessie Smollett case because people are interested when they say a hate crime has occurred. This is a the highly contentious elephant in the room you are avoiding. Can you note another high profile hate-crime that has occurred?

To the part in bold, could you point me to where that is answered, I would appreciate it thanks.

Sheridan81

Thank you Kimsang. It is important to question things, and as you rightly pointed out, questions are not arguments. Another one of Melania's statements on the incident is this: "I don’t remember the whole episode, but the word "scissors" stuck in my mind."

So she remembers the word scissors but can't fully recall the details of the attack? I don't understand.

After some more thought, I will attempt to provide some answers to some of my own musings.

Sheridan81 wrote: »

What is Chris's surname and why is she withholding it?
Who took the picture?
Why did Melania wait a week to post about the attack on facebook and why post about it at all?
Why post the story in two different languages?
Why did they stop for a picture after presumably the most traumatic, frightening experience of their life?
Why didn't the person who took the picture help them when they were being attacked?
What were the other passengers doing?

According to Melania, it 'was only us and them there' so presumably there were no other passengers on board, so the above two questions can be erased too. It does beg the question of where the picture taker came from-perhaps it was a member of the police who took it?

Sheridan wrote:

How did they make such a quick recovery from broken noses and broken jaws to appear perfectly fine on TV 10 days later?

The only explanation for this is that they didn't suffer a broken jaw and nose as was initially reported.

Sheridan wrote:

How have they managed to recover from an attack that would leave a lot of people mentally scarred, agoraphobic and/or suicidal in such a short space of time, so much so that they can appear on TV and media as nerveless champions of LGBT rights and other victims within those minority groups?
How did a physical assault resulting in a broken nose and jaw-sometimes life changing for some- result in Chris feeling, and I quote, "more physically confident"?

Perhaps the attack wasn't that vicious. Perhaps they are very strong women. Perhaps they are suffering still off camera.

Sheridan wrote:

Why didn't the bus driver hear the commotion and stop?

The bus driver must have heard the commotion and called the police, otherwise how would they have gotten there so quickly? Why the bus driver didn't try to stop the boys from getting off the bus remains a mystery; perhaps he/she was intimidated.

Sheridan wrote:

Why is there no sign of Melania's black eye in the original picture?
Why is most of the blood spatter concentrated on their noses and Melania's shirt?
Why does Melania get dizzy at the sight of her own blood when she's capable of dissecting?
Why couldn't they count the number of attackers? ("At least 4 of them" -and there's been a fifth arrest?)
How did attackers initially described as 'men' turn out to be teenagers?
Why can't Melania remember if she lost consciousness or not?
How did an assault become an international story?
Why are they giving their opinion on Boris Johnson's leadership qualities?
Will we ever see the perpetrators?
Will we ever discover the names of the perpetrators? .

Sadly, we will never set eyes on the attackers or know their names, because they are teens (who look like men). Thankfully, the police have it all under control thanks to CCTV footage, which we will also never see.

Brian?

Kimsang wrote: »

Again, questions are not arguments. Why can't you speak within the realms of my analogy? You really have strong ideological lenses in those glasses if you think those questions as 'implying that it never happened'.

I reference the Jessie Smollett case because people are interested when they say a hate crime has occurred. This is a the highly contentious elephant in the room you are avoiding. Can you note another high profile hate-crime that has occurred?

To the part in bold, could you point me to where that is answered, I would appreciate it thanks.

Why is it so important to have these questions answered?

Facts:
The attack happened.
The boys have been charged.
The women are a lesbian couple.

You say questions aren’t arguments, but you and others are clearly using them as a device to imply the coverage may not be 100% objective. It’s a means to an end, I’m waiting for the anti PC/ liberal media trope to be carted out.

I find it ironic you accuse others of looking at this through “ideological lenses” while you search with an ideological microscope for reasons this wasn’t a hate crime. It was a hate crime, based on the evidence at hand. The court case will make the final decision on it, every worthwhile question will be answered then.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

Kimsang wrote: »

(Edit: I will strike through as questions get answered!)
I think these are still important questions that need answering! I don't think anyone has yet. Given how much interest there was, why not let's wait and see what happens

Most of those questions are incredibly dumb and none pose any problems with this case.

People have been arrested. So it happened.

Kimsang

Brian? wrote: »

Why is it so important to have these questions answered?

Facts:
The attack happened.
The boys have been charged.
The women are a lesbian couple.

Because of the amount of people alleging it was a hate crime.

All of those facts are irrefutably true. (except apparently one of the women was bisexual, and didn't appreciate being labelled as lesbian)
The 'homophobic attack' part is what interests people. As has been discussed and argued to death a million times in this thread.

batgoat

Kimsang wrote: »

Because of the amount of people alleging it was a hate crime.

All of those facts are irrefutably true.

The 'homophobic attack' part is what interests people. As has been discussed and argued to death a million times in this thread.

The list of questions was more an effort to claim it never happened, that it was a hoax. The poster has made that clear. The reason the homophobic part seems to get to people is that they'd like to pretend homophobia doesn't exist.

Kimsang

batgoat wrote: »

The list of questions was more an effort to claim it never happened, that it was a hoax. The poster has made that clear. The reason the homophobic part seems to get to people is that they'd like to pretend homophobia doesn't exist.

The questions are not in an effort to claim anything. I have not made this claim, nor has the original poster. The questions were designed to understand.

Tell me where does homophobia exist? I saw something on the news about schools in the UK...

Annasopra

batgoat wrote: »

The list of questions was more an effort to claim it never happened, that it was a hoax. The poster has made that clear. The reason the homophobic part seems to get to people is that they'd like to pretend homophobia doesn't exist.

Agreed. Some people around here are hell bent on denying homophobic intent.

batgoat

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Agreed. Some people around here are hell bent on denying homophobic intent.

I'm inclined to say that the main reason for doing so is because they're a tad homophobic tbh.

Kimsang

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Agreed. Some people around here are hell bent on denying homophobic intent.

batgoat wrote: »

I'm inclined to say that the main reason for doing so is because they're a tad homophobic tbh.

Some people around here are hell bent on alleging homophobic intent without evidence.

Annasopra

Kimsang wrote: »

Some people around here are hell bent on alleging homophobic intent without evidence.

There is plenty of evidence.

Unfortunately I think the problem is growing in the UK right now

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/14/homophobic-and-transphobic-hate-crimes-surge-in-england-and-wales

Sheridan81

The motives of the boys in this attack is not public information. The boys didn't say that they hated gay people. They didn't say that they hated women. They made disrespectful sexual remarks, tossed some coins and threw punches. The only people who know why are the boys themselves and presumably they are not prepared to talk. They are voiceless. They are even body less. They might as well not exist. Everything else is pure speculation.

Neither Melania nor Chris are in the position to evaluate and judge the mindset and values of five 15-18 year-old strangers whose lives have consisted of far more than beating up a female couple on a bus.

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

Most of those questions are incredibly dumb and none pose any problems with this case.
.

Nonsense. People simply don't want to think critically. For example, Melania says they were attacked on the upper level and when they came downstairs the police were present. Chris says they somehow ended up fighting on the lower level. This is a glaring inconsistency. I believe both those statements came from the same interview. For some reason, they cannot get their story straight. Too many knocks to the head I suppose.

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

People have been arrested. So it happened.

Great logic. It's not like innocent people have ever been arrested for nothing.

This story went public with Melania's post late on June 5th. Two days later the police manage to arrest the attackers, despite never issuing a description of them to anyone. They simply looked at the CCTV footage of five random boys and tracked them down in a city of millions in no time. If only most police forces were that quick and efficient. Sterling stuff from the beat bobbies I say.

Chris, who is a good writer and had her column ready for the Guardian in no time, was very indignant about her image been splashed on websites across the globe within 48 hours.

"My persisting anger is directed not towards the idiots on the bus but the reduction of my battered face to cheap clickbait. For several days, a graphic, triggering photo of our bloody faces satisfied voyeurs and enriched companies whose values counter my own, such as News Corps and Sinclair Broadcast Group."

Perhaps she should have told her girlfriend not to post the story on facebook then? Perhaps she should have told her girlfriend not to post another close-up image of her face with a black eye? Perhaps she should not be appearing on national television if she values her privacy so much? She also says:

"The commodification and exploitation of my face came at the expense of other victims whose constant persecution apparently does not warrant similar moral outrage."

I couldn't agree more. Less news coverage of people being punched a few times by teenage boys and more energy focusing on the poor victims of famines, homelessness, murders and rapes, as well as more time committed to finding the countless numbers who go missing everyday please! (but not Madeleine McCann).

batgoat wrote: »

The list of questions was more an effort to claim it never happened, that it was a hoax. The poster has made that clear.

More nonsense. You obviously missed the part where I said I donated to poor Melania's and Chris' gofundme page. If anything, it will help Chris buy more pens and Melania more acting lessons.

blinding

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

There is plenty of evidence.

Unfortunately I think the problem is growing in the UK right now

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/14/homophobic-and-transphobic-hate-crimes-surge-in-england-and-wales

Is that from Islam ?

ohnonotgmail

blinding wrote: »

Is that from Islam ?

why would you think that?

blinding

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

why would you think that?

Islam has a very ‘ Strained “ relationship with Homosexuality .

In some Islamic Countries they seem to think that Homosexuals can Fly and they certainly are not tolerant of Homosexuality . Pretty Homophobic all in all .

ohnonotgmail

blinding wrote: »

Islam has a very ‘ Strained “ relationship with Homosexuality .

In some Islamic Countries they seem to think that Homosexuals can Fly and they certainly are not tolerant of Homosexuality . Pretty Homophobic all in all .

but why do you think that muslims are responsible for the increase in homophobic attacks in england? Or is it just another excuse to blame muslims for something?

Sonics2k

blinding wrote: »

Is that from Islam ?

It seems to be both, honestly.

While there's certainly a connection between Islam and homophobia (please don't argue this, it's true), we've also seen an increase in homophobia from white Christians too. It may not be that there are more homophobes now, but they've certainly become more vocal.

Kimsang

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inHV2va3S3E

The only homophobes that are vocal are the ones that are protected by left wing ideology. Definition of hypocrisy.

Even Owen Jones couldn't call them out. Somehow he figures its still the far-right's fault.

ohnonotgmail

Kimsang wrote: »

<SNIP>

The only homophobes that are vocal are the ones that are protected by left wing ideology. Definition of hypocrisy.

Even Owen Jones couldn't call them out. Somehow he figures its still the far-right's fault.

what does this have to do with non-muslim scrotes conducting a homophobic attack against 2 lesbian women?

Kimsang

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

what does this have to do with non-muslim scrotes conducting a homophobic attack against 2 lesbian women?

Who are you to steer the conversation?

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

but why do you think that muslims are responsible for the increase in homophobic attacks in england? Or is it just another excuse to blame muslims for something?

What does this have to do with non-muslim scrotes conducting a homophobic attack against 2 lesbian women?

ohnonotgmail

Kimsang wrote: »

Who are you to steer the conversation?

who are you to tell me what i can i post?

batgoat

Kimsang wrote: »

Who are you to steer the conversation?

It's a reasonable point when you've got a pretty clear agenda in the thread...

blinding

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

but why do you think that muslims are responsible for the increase in homophobic attacks in england? Or is it just another excuse to blame muslims for something?

Is Islam Homophobic ? Yes it is .

Homophobia has increased where the Muslim Population has grown in Britain .

Unfortunate Truth but it is the Truth .

Islam is Homophobic .

ohnonotgmail

blinding wrote: »

Is Islam Homophobic ? Yes it is .

Homophobia has increased where the Muslim Population has grown in Britain .

Unfortunate Truth but it is the Truth .

Islam is Homophobic .

so you are blaming muslims for the increase in homophobic attacks? do you have anything to support that assertion?

blinding

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

so you are blaming muslims for the increase in homophobic attacks? do you have anything to support that assertion?

I said Homophobia has grown in areas where the Muslim population has grown .

Its an inconvenient fact but sure I suppose if you don’t want to understand , you won’t understand .

ohnonotgmail

blinding wrote: »

I said Homophobia has grown in areas where the Muslim population has grown .

Its an inconvenient fact but sure I suppose if you don’t want to understand , you won’t understand .

we are talking about homophobic attacks. Outward displays of homophobia.

blinding

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

we are talking about homophobic attacks. Outward displays of homophobia.

They have also increased as the Muslim population has grown in those areas . Hardly Surprising .

When a religion is Homophobic then its hardly surprising where there are large numbers of that Religion then all types of Homophobia will increase .

Its not rocket science .

ohnonotgmail

blinding wrote: »

They have also increased as the Muslim population has grown in those areas . Hardly Surprising .

When a religion is Homophobic then its hardly surprising where there are large numbers of that Religion then all types of Homophobia will increase .

Its not rocket science .

do you have a source for muslims conducting homophobic attacks?