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Homophobic attack on London bus - mod warning, please see OP
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Is it just minorities who need to prove all details of crimes against them beyond all reasonable doubt?
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It seems so yeahIt was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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Here we have it, the mantra that the victims are lying about their horrific ordeal.
London Pride is happening this Saturday, notice how homophobes stay away. They prefer to attack in numbers on vulnerable individuals as they are cowards.
Never said they were lying,but thanks for calling me a liar. Maybe you should go and enjoy a parade with your friends, rather than being all bitter here.0 -
Joeytheparrot wrote: »It seems so yeah
If a straight white person said they were attacked because they were straight and white I would question it just as much as when a 'minority' says it.0 -
If a straight white person said they were attacked because they were straight and white I would question it just as much as when a 'minority' says it.
And?It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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If a straight white person said they were attacked because they were straight and white I would question it just as much as when a 'minority' says it.
You’d actually make more of it, I’d say. It would prove that white, heterosexual people are an oppressed majority to you.they/them/theirs
And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek
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Joeytheparrot wrote: »And?
And I think identity politics is a dangerous game to be playing.
Justice used to be a concept we all believed in.0 -
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Kimsang probably wants a straight pride march too for the "oppressed straight majority"!
Standard underhanded slur. I expect nothing better from you.
I'm saying as Vox agrees;
"Boston’s Straight Pride was only a matter of time"
Some people over playing identity politics, will lead to everyone playing identity politics. Do you not see this as the clear and obvious conclusion we are heading for? Vox seemed to agree in the first line of the article, but then goes on to document all the hate etc... without ever addressing this point.0 -
Standard underhanded slur. I expect nothing better from you.
I'm saying as Vox agrees;
"Boston’s Straight Pride was only a matter of time"
Some people over playing identity politics, will lead to everyone playing identity politics. Do you not see this as the clear and obvious conclusion we are heading for? Vox seemed to agree in the first line of the article, but then goes on to document all the hate etc... without ever addressing this point.
So what do you think of the straight pride rally? Not what Vox thinks.
Stop hiding behind what other people think and post your own opinions.they/them/theirs
And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek
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So what do you think of the straight pride rally? Not what Vox thinks.
Stop hiding behind what other people think and post your own opinions.
Why don't you answer my question instead of changing the subject?
Do you think some people playing identity politics will eventually lead to everyone playing identity politics? If not, why not?
To answer your question
If you read my posts you'll see I think it is a reaction to the left over playing identity politics. No-one had a problem with the first pride parades et al, but when they started regimenting their strict ideology is when I saw other people push back. Forces we had as a society suppressed.
I think there is a need for men to speak out for their rights in a time when they are told their masculinity is toxic and there is no road to redemption for false sex accusations.
I think there is a need for straight people to speak out in a time when they are slurred for their sexuality.
I would say the same if I saw gay people being slurred for their sexuality;
but this is well policed, and often seen as a hate crime.
The need to speak out against slurs against minorities has hugely diminished. I see this as a good thing, but now it has gone too far, way too far.
Standing up for the rights of people is too often confused with attacking others.0 -
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Why don't you answer my question instead of changing the subject?
Do you think some people playing identity politics will eventually lead to everyone playing identity politics? If not, why not?
To answer your question
If you read my posts you'll see I think it is a reaction to the left over playing identity politics. No-one had a problem with the first pride parades et al, but when they started regimenting their strict ideology is when I saw other people push back. Forces we had as a society suppressed.
I think there is a need for men to speak out for their rights in a time when they are told their masculinity is toxic and there is no road to redemption for false sex accusations.
I think there is a need for straight people to speak out in a time when they are slurred for their sexuality.
I would say the same if I saw gay people being slurred for their sexuality;
but this is well policed, and often seen as a hate crime.
The need to speak out against slurs against minorities has hugely diminished. I see this as a good thing, but now it has gone too far, way too far.
Standing up for the rights of people is too often confused with attacking others.
Slut is the only insult predominantly levelled against straight people largely exclusively. Even that is more an anti woman thing than an anti straight thing.
As a straight man I am pretty sure no one has ever insulted me over my sexual orientation. Nor have I have been discriminated against near as I can tell. Indeed I have likely received an advantage from my gender in that people are more likely to think I am more intelligent.
Lots of people had issues for the pride parades. They were the reason for pride parades.
I mean we suppressed the church's ability to get society to discrimate against others but that is about it. And that is no bad thing.0 -
When someone is called a straight white male in conversation – you know exactly what they’re doing: attempting to devalue their POV based on negative cultural stereotypes. That’s racism. But hide behind a cloud of obscurity if you wish.
As long as there are women only shortlists, and women only positions, let me inform you - you are being discriminated against.0 -
Why don't you answer my question instead of changing the subject?
I isn’t change the subject, this is a bizarre accusation. You’re question can’t be answered until I know what you think. Not what a writer for Vox thinks.Do you think some people playing identity politics will eventually lead to everyone playing identity politics? If not, why not?
I think both sides play identity politics too much.To answer your question
If you read my posts you'll see I think it is a reaction to the left over playing identity politics. No-one had a problem with the first pride parades et al, but when they started regimenting their strict ideology is when I saw other people push back. Forces we had as a society suppressed.
I think there is a need for men to speak out for their rights in a time when they are told their masculinity is toxic and there is no road to redemption for false sex accusations.
I think there is a need for straight people to speak out in a time when they are slurred for their sexuality.
I would say the same if I saw gay people being slurred for their sexuality;
but this is well policed, and often seen as a hate crime.
The need to speak out against slurs against minorities has hugely diminished. I see this as a good thing, but now it has gone too far, way too far.
Standing up for the rights of people is too often confused with attacking others.
It hasn’t gone too far, because gay and trans people are still subject to discrimination. Heterosexual people aren’t. What’s a slur for a heterosexual person?
There is no underlying ideology behind lgbt rights. Unless you count tolerance as an ideology. There are a number of ideologies who are anti lgbt rights though.they/them/theirs
And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek
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When someone is called a straight white male in conversation – you know exactly what they’re doing: attempting to devalue their POV based on negative cultural stereotypes. That’s racism. But hide behind a cloud of obscurity if you wish.
No it isn’t. That’s absolute nonsense.As long as there are women only shortlists, and women only positions, let me inform you - you are being discriminated against.
What women only shortlists and positions?they/them/theirs
And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek
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And I think identity politics is a dangerous game to be playing.
Justice used to be a concept we all believed in.
We are constantly struggling for equality and fairness. Things improve, some get worse, but Justice is a concept we all strive for.Standard underhanded slur. I expect nothing better from you.
I'm saying as Vox agrees;
"Boston’s Straight Pride was only a matter of time"
Some people over playing identity politics, will lead to everyone playing identity politics. Do you not see this as the clear and obvious conclusion we are heading for? Vox seemed to agree in the first line of the article, but then goes on to document all the hate etc... without ever addressing this point.
Like freedoms for blacks brought about the likes of the KKK, a minority getting equality does not justify sections of the majority acting like criminals or brats.
Gay pride is in the name, it's celebrating being gay after generations of being criminalised and beat down.
There is no reason for a straight parade other than a kind of sad, (if not sarcastic) parade for delicate people who feel equality threatens their life in some way.0 -
I think both sides play identity politics too much.
Well let me inform you it started on one side.
If you haven't been paying attention to gender and identity quotas then you are purposefully ignorant!
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/first-women-only-professorships-due-to-be-appointed-before-end-of-this-year-1.3933521First women-only professorships due to be appointed before end of this year0 -
Also pride is an act of support for those who are still discriminated be it home or abroad.Matt Barrett wrote: »We are constantly struggling for equality and fairness. Things improve, some get worse, but Justice is a concept we all strive for.
Like freedoms for blacks brought about the likes of the KKK, a minority getting equality does not justify sections of the majority acting like criminals or brats.
Gay pride is in the name, it's celebrating being gay after generations of being criminalised and beat down.
There is no reason for a straight parade other than a kind of sad, (if not sarcastic) parade for delicate people who feel equality threatens their life in some way.0 -
When someone is called a straight white male in conversation – you know exactly what they’re doing: attempting to devalue their POV based on negative cultural stereotypes. That’s racism. But hide behind a cloud of obscurity if you wish.
As long as there are women only shortlists, and women only positions, let me inform you - you are being discriminated against.
I thought the original point was people getting discriminated against due to being straight?
I mean those are not lgbt only positions?
As an aside I do disagree with them but they tend to be there due to previous posts being u officially male only. They are also incredibly rare so my point of not being discriminated against stands.
There are no straight pride parades because people in general have never been told it is shameful to be straight and have never thought this while coming to terms with their sexuality. In sport there are still plenty of stigma around gay players to the point were many only come out late in their careers or after.
Plenty of people still worry about coming out to their parents and what family will think. It isn't a thing I had to do or worry about.0 -
Well let me inform you it started on one side.
You’re right, the push for equality largely came from the left. Which is a good thing, I would have thought we all agreed on that.If you haven't been paying attention to gender and identity quotas then you are purposefully ignorant!
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/first-women-only-professorships-due-to-be-appointed-before-end-of-this-year-1.3933521
I’ve heard of gender quotas, but never women only lists or professions. I can’t read that link.they/them/theirs
And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek
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A taxi driver was attacked by scumbags last night in Tallaght.It is being discussed on another thread. What’s interesting though is that the driver was Muslim. Nobody in the thread has highlighted his ethnicity or religion. It is being treated as it should be, an attack by scumbags. The London bus attack should be treated the same.0
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Nikki Sixx wrote: »A taxi driver was attacked by scumbags last night in Tallaght.It is being discussed on another thread. What’s interesting though is that the driver was Muslim. Nobody in the thread has highlighted his ethnicity or religion. It is being treated as it should be, an attack by scumbags. The London bus attack should be treated the same.
We should lay off or play down the fact they were homophobes and not give them undue bad press?
What if the Taxi attackers were Muslims? I think it would have come up.
By the by, the sexuality of the two women was part of the reason they were attacked. They were asked to kiss and had money thrown at them because they were gay. And yes, both attacks were by scumbags.0 -
Nikki Sixx wrote: »A taxi driver was attacked by scumbags last night in Tallaght.It is being discussed on another thread. What’s interesting though is that the driver was Muslim. Nobody in the thread has highlighted his ethnicity or religion. It is being treated as it should be, an attack by scumbags. The London bus attack should be treated Tyne same.
Must have missed these and a few others then
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=110603621&postcount=21
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=110603917&postcount=28
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=110604598&postcount=510 -
There is no evidence the attackers knew their sexuality. Melania was characteristically unhelpful on that point: "We must have kissed or something..."Matt Barrett wrote: »By the by, the sexuality of the two women was part of the reason they were attacked. They were asked to kiss and had money thrown at them because they were gay.
She can't even remember what instigated the attack either. She'll be a great witness.
Do you think if the boys thought they were only friends they would have politely left them alone? Do you think all straight women in history left alone with a group of unpleasant teenage boys have never been asked to kiss and never been demeaned sexually?
Don't homophobes hate homosexuality? Then how is urging lesbians to kiss a sure sign of homophobia? It's merely a disrespectful act of a group of probably highly-sexed heterosexual boys-not an indicator of a deep-seated hatred of gays. Telling them not to kiss and not to hold hands is homophobic.
And throwing coins and other stuff at people is something teenage boys do all the time.
No. Watch Judge Judy.Is it just minorities who need to prove all details of crimes against them beyond all reasonable doubt?
A state of consciousness is easy to remember. Waking up and not remembering means you were unconscious.You tend not to remember completely fainting - you just notice you are suddenly on the ground. Like sometimes you wake up entirely unsure if you were asleep or not.
They're not going to find Melania's address and have access to her life at the trial. I found her address and other info online. Her facebook page is public. It's surprising she isn't more careful. She obviously wasn't that frightened by these boys.The boys will figure out who the girls are at the trial so I wouldn't be worried about them tracking them down. They have CCTV so not like the boys will get off prison by taking them out or any nonsense.
What I said, except she appeared on television.Chris presumably just likes her privacy from the media.
The question is why this one? There is nothing remotely remarkable or shocking about it.As for the media some stories catch on and some don't.
Nobody, to the best of my knowledge, has ever questioned their story-that's not on the agenda.Not every missing person is reported equally either. Though I think had people not tried so hard to argue they were lying etc. it would have died a long time ago.0 -
Sheridan81 wrote: »There is no evidence the attackers knew their sexuality. Melania was characteristically unhelpful on that point: "We must have kissed or something..."
She can't even remember what instigated the attack either. She'll be a great witness.
Do you think if the boys thought they were only friends they would have politely left them alone? Do you think all straight women in history left alone with a group of unpleasant teenage boys have never been asked to kiss and never been demeaned sexually?
Don't homophobes hate homosexuality? Then how is urging lesbians to kiss a sure sign of homophobia? It's merely a disrespectful act of a group of probably highly-sexed heterosexual boys-not an indicator of a deep-seated hatred of gays. Telling them not to kiss and not to hold hands is homophobic.
And throwing coins and other stuff at people is something teenage boys do all the time.
No. Watch Judge Judy.
A state of consciousness is easy to remember. Waking up and not remembering means you were unconscious.
They're not going to find Melania's address and have access to her life at the trial. I found her address and other info online. Her facebook page is public. It's surprising she isn't more careful. She obviously wasn't that frightened by these boys.
What I said, except she appeared on television.
The question is why this one? There is nothing remotely remarkable or shocking about it.
Nobody, to the best of my knowledge, has ever questioned their story-that's not on the agenda.
They targeted them because they were gay. The exact method of insulting the women is beside the point.
Hey maybe they would have attacked them anyway. But we are going on balance of probability here.
Yup. People tend not to remember every detail of their lives. Neither do you unless you have a very special memory. I can't tell you the exact time I last kissed my other half. Definitely today but I didn't exactly record it. They remember the attack because that was noteworthy. Snogging their other half likely happens a decent bit!
It happens in all crimes. I know people held up by unmasked people and they couldn't remember the attackers faces.
You are literally questioning their story. Why else bother pointing out the "holes" in their story?0 -
Nobody at all.Sheridan81 wrote: »
Nobody, to the best of my knowledge, has ever questioned their story-that's not on the agenda.Sheridan81 wrote: »So many questions.0 -
Sheridan81 wrote: »There is no evidence the attackers knew their sexuality. Melania was characteristically unhelpful on that point: "We must have kissed or something..."
She can't even remember what instigated the attack either. She'll be a great witness.
Do you think if the boys thought they were only friends they would have politely left them alone? Do you think all straight women in history left alone with a group of unpleasant teenage boys have never been asked to kiss and never been demeaned sexually?
Don't homophobes hate homosexuality? Then how is urging lesbians to kiss a sure sign of homophobia? It's merely a disrespectful act of a group of probably highly-sexed heterosexual boys-not an indicator of a deep-seated hatred of gays. Telling them not to kiss and not to hold hands is homophobic.
And throwing coins and other stuff at people is something teenage boys do all the time.
No. Watch Judge Judy.
A state of consciousness is easy to remember. Waking up and not remembering means you were unconscious.
They're not going to find Melania's address and have access to her life at the trial. I found her address and other info online. Her facebook page is public. It's surprising she isn't more careful. She obviously wasn't that frightened by these boys.
What I said, except she appeared on television.
The question is why this one? There is nothing remotely remarkable or shocking about it.
Nobody, to the best of my knowledge, has ever questioned their story-that's not on the agenda.
Plenty of questioning of their story within this thread itself.
I did security for a few years and someone who witnessed a physical assault can be confused about what happened during the assault, but can remember the lead up.
As for the person who actually was assaulted, key points normally stick in their mind but they wouldn't remember the whole incident.
A personal example was a time that my cousin and I were out for a night and walking by a pub while two guys where were being refused entry.
One of them got pushed by the one of the door staff back towards the street and bumped into my cousin. Without my cousin saying anything to him the guy just started to punch him and his friend joined in.
I remembered parts of the fight, but didn't for example remember elbowing one of the door staff in the face when he grabbed me.
I was worried about my cousin as he had just had eye surgery a few weeks before hand and didn't know what the effect could be of him getting hit around there, and nothing was going to stop me.
The only reason I know what happened with any certainty during the fight is due to the fact that one of the door staff knew me personally and showed me the video footage.0 -
How do you know they targeted them because they were gay? Answer: you don't. It's your opinion.They targeted them because they were gay. The exact method of insulting the women is beside the point.
The method of insulting the women isn't beside the point. According to testimony, they didn't express hatred for the gay community. They didn't use any derogatory slurs common to express disdain for the gay community.
The headline of this attack should have been 'couple sexually harassed and beaten on London bus'. But would that have got enough attention? Enough clicks? Probably not. So Melania and the media introduce homophobia and misogyny so that the politically correct brigade can jump onto the bandwagon and they can raise awareness (and money) for the causes close to their heart.
Fair point.DubInMeath wrote: »I did security for a few years and someone who witnessed a physical assault can be confused about what happened during the assault, but can remember the lead up.
As for the person who actually was assaulted, key points normally stick in their mind but they wouldn't remember the whole incident.
A personal example was a time that my cousin and I were out for a night and walking by a pub while two guys where were being refused entry.
One of them got pushed by the one of the door staff back towards the street and bumped into my cousin. Without my cousin saying anything to him the guy just started to punch him and his friend joined in.
I remembered parts of the fight, but didn't for example remember elbowing one of the door staff in the face when he grabbed me.
I was worried about my cousin as he had just had eye surgery a few weeks before hand and didn't know what the effect could be of him getting hit around there, and nothing was going to stop me.
The only reason I know what happened with any certainty during the fight is due to the fact that one of the door staff knew me personally and showed me the video footage.
But if people are going to maximize publicity for their victimization and online websites are going to use it for click-bait-both making errors in the reportage in the process-then it should be expected that some people will question the validity of it all. One cannot trust the corporate machine blindly.Nobody at all.
Who in the media has questioned their story so that it 'didn't die a long time ago'? A thread on boards hasn't kept the story alive. Of course I have questioned it, but only mildly, that goes without saying. I will never believe everything I read in the newspapers or everything I see on the news. I do not think it was a hoax; I think it was a minor assault that has been greatly exaggerated for gay pride month. People get beat up all the time.DubInMeath wrote: »Plenty of questioning of their story within this thread itself.
I still don't know how the police tracked down the offenders so quickly. London is a big place. How did they know where to look? I hope some details are revealed at the trial.0 -
For me the biggest tell in all this was the line:"The next thing I know is that Chris is in the middle of the bus fighting with them."
My guess would be Chris went back and confronted them over the coin throwing (which she is well in her rights to do) and a fight broke out.
Be interesting to see what charges are brought and I think some will be for sure, even if it's just theft and harassment.
There is just too much attention on this for there not to be.0 -
Sheridan81 wrote: »How do you know they targeted them because they were gay? Answer: you don't. It's your opinion.
The method of insulting the women isn't beside the point. According to testimony, they didn't express hatred for the gay community. They didn't use any derogatory slurs common to express disdain for the gay community.
The headline of this attack should have been 'couple sexually harassed and beaten on London bus'. But would that have got enough attention? Enough clicks? Probably not. So Melania and the media introduce homophobia and misogyny so that the politically correct brigade can jump onto the bandwagon and they can raise awareness (and money) for the causes close to their heart.
Fair point.
But if people are going to maximize publicity for their victimization and online websites are going to use it for click-bait-both making errors in the reportage in the process-then it should be expected that some people will question the validity of it all. One cannot trust the corporate machine blindly.
Who in the media has questioned their story so that it 'didn't die a long time ago'? A thread on boards hasn't kept the story alive. Of course I have questioned it, but only mildly, that goes without saying. I will never believe everything I read in the newspapers or everything I see on the news. I do not think it was a hoax; I think it was a minor assault that has been greatly exaggerated for gay pride month. People get beat up all the time.
I still don't know how the police tracked down the offenders so quickly. London is a big place. How did they know where to look? I hope some details are revealed at the trial.
I mean the attackers focused on the gay part for there initial harassment so it seems likely that they were set off initially by the gay part. Balance of probability suggests homophobic attack.
If you are harassed because you are gay it is homophobia. The exact nature of the harassment is irrelevant to it being homophobia.
I have no idea why people are so at pains to say it wasn't. We know lgbt people are more likely to get attacked so logic dictates the extra must be homophobia (unless lgbt are just naturally unlucky which seems unscientific).
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/gay-lgbt-hate-crimes-stats-rise-four-year-physical-verbal-homophobic-abuse-community-a7933126.html%3famp0 -
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I hope we get to see all the ‘ Form “ of the attackers !
It will tell us a lot about them .0
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