Irish language revival

ILoveYourVibes

Wibbs wrote: »

Oh sure, but my point still stands IL. If anything you've reinforced it. Israel and its peoples come from many different backgrounds and language cultures and need some common ground. It is not close to the homogeneity of Ireland and its culture.

Probably true in fairness.

_blaaz

_blaaz wrote: »

The most of bilingual people i knows think in irish as it comes easier to them...now they speak in english etc



The best example i could think of is....when my grandmother mind was starting to go of old age etc.....a childhood friend came to visit her and she was able to converse grand in irish with her.....but she struggled to keep up converstaions in english......

.its same for cousins of mine...when off their face/drunk its too much effort to talk in english as they think in irish......you really would have to see it to believe it

I wonder if this is related to syntax. A lot of us, as solely english speakers, grew up speaking Hiberno Irish where syntax is often borrowed directly from Irish, especially in rural Ireland.

Locals in my area (a non Gaeltacht, English speaking area) will tell you that someone was or had 'got dead' instead of having died, which corresponds well to the Irish where death is a thing that is received (Fuair Maidhc bás).

People will also often prefer to answer a simple question in a way that other English speakers might find unusual.

Are you at home?
I am (there is no clear word for Yes in Irish)
Can I come over?
You can not (similarly, no clear translation for No)

BarryD2

I've always thought there's an interesting comparison to be drawn between our traditional language and our traditional music. The language has been supported by state policy since the early days of independence. There has been some success in maintaining Gaeltacht regions and a whole raft of public policy to support and promote and yet the language languishes in the majority of citizens minds. The growth of the Gaelscoill movement is positive but it exists for many reasons other than a simple love of the language.

On other hand, Irish trad music was largely ignored by the state until recent times. The church and state combined even to try and suppress it, it was tinkers music and associated with loose morals at house dances etc. And yet it survived like a wild weed, people kept playing away and in time has become a considerable success both at home and abroad. Emigrating Irish people to London, States etc often kept the music even if they didn't the language. It's still a minority genre in Ireland, you'd have to seek out people to play tunes with. But I'd argue that it has a much more positive image in ordinary peoples minds.

So instead of banning spoken Irish, maybe the state should just simply ignore. Let people speak it for the love of it and do nothing more.

Igotadose

_blaaz wrote: »

The best example i could think of is....when my grandmother mind was starting to go of old age etc.....a childhood friend came to visit her and she was able to converse grand in irish with her.....but she struggled to keep up converstaions in english......

A friend is a nurse in the local hospital. She's said this is very common among elderly and stroke victims, reverting back to exclusively Irish.

My mother learned English as a young woman having migrated to the US from Poland. When she in hospital after a bad fall, for the first few days she couldn't speak English though it came back to her. She was a natural polyglot though, English, Russian, German, French, only English learned in school. French learned from maids at the home in Poland when she was a child.

wakka12

Its taught so badly in schools , needs to change radically. Drop all the poetry and written grammar and tenses ****e and focus on teaching how to speak properly and effectively communicate with other people. here in norway teenagers are as good at english as any native english speaker after having learnt the language throuhout their schooling years. Irish adults should be completely fluent in irish after 14 years of education yet most cant even string a conversation together, its sad and all those hundreds of hours of education were clearly a huge waste of time and money

whisky_galore

BarryD2 wrote: »

I've always thought there's an interesting comparison to be drawn between our traditional language and our traditional music. The language has been supported by state policy since the early days of independence. There has been some success in maintaining Gaeltacht regions and a whole raft of public policy to support and promote and yet the language languishes in the majority of citizens minds. The growth of the Gaelscoill movement is positive but it exists for many reasons other than a simple love of the language.

On other hand, Irish trad music was largely ignored by the state until recent times. The church and state combined even to try and suppress it, it was tinkers music and associated with loose morals at house dances etc. And yet it survived like a wild weed, people kept playing away and in time has become a considerable success both at home and abroad. Emigrating Irish people to London, States etc often kept the music even if they didn't the language. It's still a minority genre in Ireland, you'd have to seek out people to play tunes with. But I'd argue that it has a much more positive image in ordinary peoples minds.

So instead of banning spoken Irish, maybe the state should just simply ignore. Let people speak it for the love of it and do nothing more.

Music is an international language, and people derive enjoyment out of playing and listening.
People from other cultures can fall in and jam with it and they don't need to understand the spoken language of other musicians.

And it's fun, something which many find Irish is anything but.

wakka12

wakka12 wrote: »

Its taught so badly in schools , needs to change radically. Drop all the poetry and written grammar and tenses ****e and focus on teaching how to speak properly and effectively communicate with other people. here in norway teenagers are as good at english as any native english speaker after having learnt the language throuhout their schooling years. Irish adults should be completely fluent in irish after 14 years of education yet most cant even string a conversation together, its sad and all those hundreds of hours of education were clearly a huge waste of time and money

It teach so bad in school it need change radical. Drop all the poetry and write grammar and tenses sh!te and focus to teach how to speak proper and communicate effective...

You get my drift? The educational system manages to teach grammar, cases and tenses very well in other languages. There is nothing particularly difficult about Irish grammar or its verbs. In fact, it's arguable that its grammar comes easier to many of us (outside of the cities) than does English grammar.

I agree with a previous poster who mentioned that continental languages are taught much more effectively, in terms of being user-friendly. That may be because publishers of French and Spanish can market their texts to enormous markets, whereas Irish publishers have fewer resources and skills to draw upon.

Stop moaning ffs

janfebmar wrote: »

It's an ugly dead language and a waste if taxpayers money.

There’s that signature bitterly anti Irish sentiment you’re so famous for.

Jupiter Mulligan

My kids were sent to a gaelscoil two decades ago mainly for the perceived middle class attractions of fewer skanger kids and better teaching resources. For us, the Irish language was an incidental extra, as both the missus and I had no particularly strong feelings regarding the lingo.

A couple of decades later we have two fluent Irish-speakers who are positively inclined towards the language and speak it naturally and comfortably whenever they meet their former classmates. They're normal too; not rabid, turf-smoking fanatics who regard the language as a totem pole with which to hit others over the head. (in which regard, I still recall with rage that linguistic snob and all-round prick Mickey dee Higgins describing critics of TG4 as the "culturally deprived" - if I had been in his immediate vicinity when he said it, my size 10 George Webb would have been lodged two feet up his supercilious rectum.)

So I'm all for the lingo - but I loathe the fanatics with a passion.

ILoveYourVibes

No one has answered my space indian questions. I want a gaelgoirs opinion please.

I know you guys don't think i am serious but i am!

Reati

wakka12 wrote: »

Its taught so badly in schools , needs to change radically. Drop all the poetry and written grammar and tenses ****e and focus on teaching how to speak properly and effectively communicate with other people. here in norway teenagers are as good at english as any native english speaker after having learnt the language throuhout their schooling years. Irish adults should be completely fluent in irish after 14 years of education yet most cant even string a conversation together, its sad and all those hundreds of hours of education were clearly a huge waste of time and money

Here is another great Irish language myth example.

No one is learning Irish for 14 years. They are learning it for a 3 and a half hours a week for the lenght of school term. That's 40 minutes a day for 180ish (primary school) days a year. Assuming most kids arent actually paying attention for the full 40 mins, it's not a whole lot of time given that you you speak or think in English for over 6000 hours a year.

But other languages are thought better? The leaving cert results again don't marry with this. Students do better in higher level Irish than French and German combined even though More students take those papers.

But let's not stop there. We all learn maths for the same amount of time as Irish? Shouldn't we all be maths geniuses after 14 years of maths?

The leaving cert results don't marry that at all either. In 2016 5024 students got between an A1 and a B1 in Irish yet only 2750 got the same in maths?

Why aren't we demanding, given the worse return in investment, that maths is no longer compulsory for college entry. It's clear a waste of money. I can barely remember anything I learned in those 14 years bar the basics. Just like most people and Irish

The problem with speaking Irish is the view it's everyone else's fault we can't speak it. There is always an excuse but if you want to to relearn it and speak it there is a world or resources but you have to put in the effort.

ILoveYourVibes

Reati wrote: »

maths is no longer compulsory.

MATHS IS NO LONGER COMPULSORY!????? WTF ARE WE DOING???

THIS IS NOT HAPPENING THIS IS NOT HAPPENING!


How will people study ...anything ..like in college????

You need it for everything!

How will they live?

EDIT

OMG I JUST REALIZED IRISH IS THE ONLY COMPULSORY SUBJECT IN THE LEAVING AND I AM FREAKING OUT!

No wonder people can't answer my space monkey linguistic question.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

I don’t think it said it was not compulsory but that given the argument that Irish shouldn’t be, the same thing might be said for maths as most people aren’t “fluent” at it.

Stop moaning ffs

Reati wrote: »

Here is another great Irish language myth example.

No one is learning Irish for 14 years. They are learning it for a 3 and a half hours a week for the lenght of school term. That's 40 minutes a day for 180ish (primary school) days a year. Assuming most kids arent actually paying attention for the full 40 mins, it's not a whole lot of time given that you you speak or think in English for over 6000 hours a year.

But other languages are thought better? The leaving cert results again don't marry with this. Students do better in higher level Irish than French and German combined even though More students take those papers.

But let's not stop there. We all learn maths for the same amount of time as Irish? Shouldn't we all be maths geniuses after 14 years of maths?

The leaving cert results don't marry that at all either. In 2016 5024 students got between an A1 and a B1 in Irish yet only 2750 got the same in maths?

Why aren't we demanding, given the worse return in investment, that maths is no longer compulsory. It's clear a waste of money. I can barely remember anything I learned in those 14 years bar the basics. Just like most people and Irish

The problem with speaking Irish is the view it's everyone else's fault we can't speak it. There is always an excuse but if you want to to relearn it and speak it there is a world or resources but you have to put in the effort.

Pains me to say it and no way would anyone admit it but we’re in effect still a british colony. We managed to kick them out sure but they recolonised culturally as soon as the advent of tv emerged.
I’ll never understand how the bbc was allowed broadcast into Ireland.
Tied into that is entire generations suffered under Christian brothers and nuns and the language being taught so badly and hated by so many who came through the education system.
It needs an entire overhaul in our current education system to energise and excite kids/ future generations to want to learn it and see its value.

You’re not ‘not Irish’ if you don’t see any value in it but I’m flummoxed by anyone from here speakin badly of it or hating it.
It’s part of your culture and heritage whether you like it or not.
More should be done to bring it back.
We wouldn’t let the gpo or trinity go into ruin, but we’re standing by letting a core component of who we are rot and die.

It’s a shame and a confusing one.

ILoveYourVibes

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

I don’t think it said it was not compulsory but that given the argument that Irish shouldn’t be, the same thing might be said for maths as most people aren’t “fluent” at it.

Maths is not compulsory.

And musicians are fluent in maths. :P Whether they know it or not.

I got lucky with a great teacher my last two years he was a maths phd. He made it interesting.

I wouldn't have made it through the logic part of my college course if i hadn't had any maths.

And I am far from 'fluent' at maths.

You are DROWNING kids before they start without it.

Ironically you need maths for linguistics!

Upforthematch

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Pains me to say it and no way would anyone admit it but we’re in effect still a british colony. We managed to kick them out sure but they recolonised culturally as soon as the advent of tv emerged.
I’ll never understand how the bbc was allowed broadcast into Ireland.
Tied into that is entire generations suffered under Christian brothers and nuns and the language being taught so badly and hated by so many who came through the education system.
It needs an entire overhaul in our current education system to energise and excite kids/ future generations to want to learn it and see its value.

You’re not ‘not Irish’ if you don’t see any value in it but I’m flummoxed by anyone from here speakin badly of it or hating it.
It’s part of your culture and heritage whether you like it or not.
More should be done to bring it back.
We wouldn’t let the gpo or trinity go into ruin, but we’re standing by letting a core component of who we are rot and die.

It’s a shame and a confusing one.

What are you talking about? Yeah we're part of the English speaking world and isn't it great that we are for jobs and prosperity?

But, that doesn't mean we can't have the Irish language, Irish music and a great Irish sense of humour. It's there for those who want it - thankfully!

whisky_galore

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Pains me to say it and no way would anyone admit it but we’re in effect still a british colony. We managed to kick them out sure but they recolonised culturally as soon as the advent of tv emerged.
I’ll never understand how the bbc was allowed broadcast into Ireland.
Tied into that is entire generations suffered under Christian brothers and nuns and the language being taught so badly and hated by so many who came through the education system.
It needs an entire overhaul in our current education system to energise and excite kids/ future generations to want to learn it and see its value.

You’re not ‘not Irish’ if you don’t see any value in it but I’m flummoxed by anyone from here speakin badly of it or hating it.
It’s part of your culture and heritage whether you like it or not.
More should be done to bring it back.
We wouldn’t let the gpo or trinity go into ruin, but we’re standing by letting a core component of who we are rot and die.

It’s a shame and a confusing one.

That rather bald, unconvincing argument "it's your culture, therefore you should learn it".

Thatched cottages are part of our culture... Shouldn't everyone learn how to thatch? Or play the harp or other Irish music, or dance Sean nós? Or hurl?
Why does language trump any or all of these?

If none of these things are your bag or you haven't the faintest interest, what right have you or anyone else got to browbeat you into learning them? Like shaming works anyway...

Reati

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Maths is not compulsory.

And musicians are fluent in maths. :P Whether they know it or not.

I got lucky with a great teacher my last two years he was a maths phd. He made it interesting.

I wouldn't have made it through the logic part of my college course if i hadn't had any maths.

And I am far from 'fluent' at maths.

You are DROWNING kids before they start without it.

Ironically you need maths for linguistics!

That's playing with semantics. Maths is compulsory by the fact you need it as a leaving cert result for the majority of colleges and universities. Few people actually drop it before doing leaving.

About all that it's ignore the underlying point that most people learn maths for the same period as Irish yet underperform more than the Irish in the leaving exams

Stop moaning ffs

Upforthematch wrote: »

What are you talking about? Yeah we're part of the English speaking world and isn't it great that we are for jobs and prosperity?

But, that doesn't mean we can't have the Irish language, Irish music and a great Irish sense of humour. It's there for those who want it - thankfully!

Oh I agree completely. We can do both. But look at music for example. We don’t support our own homegrown talent bands etc. Unless they come back from England or America having made it there. Teenagers can name you a hundred Arya grandes or lady gagas but they’d struggle to name two bands from their own country.
And don’t get me started on the premiership

We remain a british outpost down as far as British shops and chain stores here.
It’s depressing but true.

Gaelic revival 2.0 is needed

Someone ring Liam o moanlai haha

Reati

Upforthematch wrote: »

What are you talking about? Yeah we're part of the English speaking world and isn't it great that we are for jobs and prosperity?

No, it's not. I posted this myth many pages ago. How does a English speaking monoglot compare to the other 1.7 billion people with Irish as a second language who can also speak other languages. Speaking English actually doesn't mean much anymore because a huge number of people speak it. All the businesses that moved from the UK to mainland Europe in the Brexit fallout surely showed people the "we speak the English" didn't count for much when the money was on the table.

And if it's so good for prosperity how come Ireland was so bad off economically till the last 20 - 30 years given English has been the main spoken language for a long time?

BarryD2

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

We wouldn’t let the gpo or trinity go into ruin, but we’re standing by letting a core component of who we are rot and die.

The use of Irish declined in the 18th & 19th centuries - it had largely 'rotted and died' as you describe in those times. As the OPs title goes, the discussion is now about revival and reinvention which started with the Gaelic League of the late 19th century. WRT latter I've wondered if a modern Irish speaker met a native speaker from say the 18th century, would they be able to converse at all meaningfully? Even now, there are differences in vocabulary between Ulster, Connacht and Munster Irish and then there's the official version. The whole area is full of contradictions but I suppose such is life.

ILoveYourVibes

Reati wrote: »

That's playing with semantics. Maths is compulsory by the fact you need it as a leaving cert result for the majority of colleges and universities. Few people actually drop it before doing leaving.

About all that it's ignore the underlying point that most people learn maths for the same period as Irish yet underperform more than the Irish leaving.

I was opposite.

And its not playing with semantics. I am not making an argument against Irish. You are making enemies where there are none.

I have no issues with Irish.

I just think not having maths as compulsory is kind sad and dangerous to be honest.

Stop moaning ffs

whisky_galore wrote: »

That rather bald, unconvincing argument "it's your culture, therefore you should learn it".

Thatched cottages are part of our culture... Shouldn't everyone learn how to thatch? Or play the harp or other Irish music, or dance Sean nós? Or hurl?
Why does language trump any or all of these?

If none of these things are your bag or you haven't the faintest interest, what right have you or anyone else got to browbeat you into learning them? Like shaming works anyway...

Who said anything about browbeating or forcing anyone? As if that would work. It wouldn’t.
There is any amount of ways to rebrand it and make people want to engage though. The impetus just isn’t there.

Reati

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I was opposite.

Good for you. There is always outliers to statistics. You would have covered that in your maths lessons I'm sure

Edit. You've edited to add colour to your post so mine loses context.

It would be good to hear why maths should be compulsory?

Jupiter Mulligan

Jupiter Mulligan wrote: »

(in which regard, I still recall with rage that linguistic snob and all-round prick Mickey dee Higgins describing critics of TG4 as the "culturally deprived" - if I had been in his immediate vicinity when he said it, my size 10 George Webb would have been lodged two feet up his supercilious rectum.)

I don't know what your George Webb is, but I hope you're referring to an item of footwear, and not something else :eek:

ILoveYourVibes

BarryD2 wrote: »

The use of Irish declined in the 18th & 19th centuries - it had largely 'rotted and died' as you describe in those times. As the OPs title goes, the discussion is now about revival and reinvention which started with the Gaelic League of the late 19th century. WRT latter I've wondered if a modern Irish speaker met a native speaker from say the 18th century, would they be able to converse at all meaningfully? Even now, there are differences in vocabulary between Ulster, Connacht and Munster Irish and then there's the official version. The whole area is full of contradictions but I suppose such is life.

That might be hard with any language. I know a french guy who read Descartes in English because it was easier. The translation had to be into modern English..but in France they read Descarte in the period french of descartes time none of them can understand it easily.

whisky_galore

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Who said anything about browbeating or forcing anyone? As if that would work. It wouldn’t.
There is any amount of ways to rebrand it and make people want to engage though. The impetus just isn’t there.

What ways would those be?

You can rebrand all you like.
Face it. Most people aren't interested and you can't make them interested. They already have a language to communicate with.

ILoveYourVibes

Reati wrote: »

Good for you. There is always outliers to statistics. You would have covered that in your maths lessons I'm sure

Edit. You've edited to add colour to your post so mine loses context.

It would be good to hear why maths should be compulsory?

There is no part of of science you can do without knowing some maths. You can't read music. You couldn't study philosophy or linguistics.

Accountancy business. Plumbers architects builders all need maths.


And no i didnt recolour my post you have quoted yourself you are just seeing bizarre things in it that aren't there.

Once again i have no issue with Irish.

Stop moaning ffs

whisky_galore wrote: »

What ways would those be?

You can rebrand all you like.
Face it. Most people aren't interested and you can't make them interested. They already have a language to communicate with.

Thankfully we don’t all have that attitude.
Watch this. It’ll warm your heart. This kid and those like him put us all to shame

https://twitter.com/johnhyphen/status/1133732626316091393?s=21

Upforthematch

Reati wrote: »

No, it's not. I posted this myth many pages ago. How does a English speaking monoglot compare to the other 1.7 billion people with Irish as a second language who can also speak other languages. Speaking English actually doesn't mean much anymore because a huge number of people speak it. All the businesses that moved from the UK to mainland Europe in the Brexit fallout surely showed people the "we speak the English" didn't count for much when the money was on the table.

And if it's so good for prosperity how come Ireland was so bad off economically till the last 20 - 30 years given English has been the main spoken language for a long time?

Ever hear of first mover advantage? You're right it doesn't matter as much today but it undoubtedly did in the past.

Speaking English has helped Irish people make a living for over 150 years - outside of Ireland in particular. I don't think we realise just how important that diaspora (particularly in USA) has been for us economically and politically.

It has helped prosperity in Ireland also, not singlehandedly but in combination with other factors, particularly in more recent decades. We can't ignore that the shift in the mother tongue was - for the most part - a pragmatic and incentivised choice, not a violent struggle.

Ní bheathaíonn na briathra na bráithre as they say.