You mean to rebuild the line and restore train service, or to turn it into a greenway? I would be all for a greenway, but I would be surprised if a railway to Youghal would be commercially viable.
Whole separate discussion!
Yep, it's not commercially viable. Once Waterrock is done, a SDZ in Mogeely could be a good shout. But Youghal is a BIG stretch. I'd love to see it in my lifetime, but I really doubt it.
Yes, the only likely rail extension would be to a new Special Development Zone between Mogeely and Castlemartyr. Beyond that, there’s no catchment for a train service until you get to Youghal, but Youghal itself is too far away from Cork to justify the cost of building a line out that far and too small to act as a hub, plus the railway alignment to Youghal doesn’t allow for any cost-effective extension into Co. Waterford.
Back on roads: with a bit of thought, a northern bypass of Castlemartyr could later serve as the main east-west access roads in that Mogeely SDZ. This would allow the problems to be treated now without the “wasted expenditure” of later bypassing the bypass.
You're absolutely right. I'm pro M25 but politically the only way this section of the N25 would be touched is if either East Cork or West Waterford got a front bench minister. Just look at how Wexford has prospered during Brendan Howlins tenure.
Hopefully we'll see that at some point but it won't be soon.
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Transport21 intend on the Atlantic corridor motorway from Rosslare to Letterkenny being complete by now?
In the multiverse maybe !
Safety fist, then capacity. N25 is now a very safe road - it’s well engineered and the dangerous bits have been realigned or bypassed. It has a couple of bottlenecks, but there are now very few collisions or other incidents. There are far worthier candidates for works - once every other National Primary is at least up to the same standards as N25, we can look at capacity fixes. Yeah, it’s annoying to be stuck in traffic, but people have been killed on other roads due to poor sightlines, hidden junctions, bad bends or inadequate passing space. Fix those problems first.
There will be no "M25" - traffic levels don’t justify it outside of Cork City, and Cork doesn’t want one of its major commuter corridors under motorway restriction, because then it would have to pay to build alternative routes out of its own funds. With the sole possible exception of N20, we don’t need more motorways - just a network of high-quality roads.
Before anyone starts playing the parochial card - N25 is the road I drive most often by far, and any upgrade between Midleton and Waterford would be a direct benefit to me. I want to see it improved, but I don’t think it’s more important than bringing the rest of the network up to a safe standard.
Agreed Kris, I drive Castlemartyr to Cork every day for work and capacity wise it seems fine. A bypass of Castlemartyr is essential at this stage though, it's such a bottleneck for commuters and day trippers at the weekend. The village itself would benefit massively from reduced traffic, there are a lot of empty properties that might finally be redeveloped if traffic volumes were reduced.
I agree with pretty much everything you've said - the one problem is that there are plenty of areas along the N25 where one (often very) slow driver can dictate the speed at which all traffic must flow. From the end of the Youghal Bypass to Killeagh is often a spot I've observed this; albeit anecdotally; and the reason why overtaking isn't available is due to heavy traffic coming from the opposite direction. I've seen quite a few dangerous attempts at overtaking here.
Another bad section is Carroll's Cross for about 4km towards Kilmeaden; overtaking opportunities aside that area is notorious for dangerous manoeuvres by people pulling across in front of traffic from side roads - not to mention the disaster that is Waterford Co Co's love of roundabouts in Dungarvan with another on the way at Coolagh!
Don't get me wrong - when the roads are quiet and/or when drivers use the road correctly the N25 is one of the best national roads in the country - sadly though unless they start telling people to either pull in and let traffic flow or introduce more overtaking lanes then it will continue to be a cause for concern and dangerous driving.
Maybe not M25 but 2+2 would help a lot of this.
Yep I know of several serious crashes which have resulted from people pulling out of side-roads.
The Dungarvan roundabouts are a disaster too. They render the bypass almost unusable. They'll surely be looking for a "bypass-of-the-bypass" before long. I often find it faster to go through town than to take the bypass, and that shouldn't be the case.
In my experience it’s never quicker to go through Dungarvan than use the bypass road, and I can’t accept that roundabouts would be an issue to any drivers on a stretch of road that’s under a 60 km/h speed limit.
There is an outer bypass of Dungarvan on the list of suspended projects: the preferred route from 2010 was approximately 16 km of Type 2 DC from the bend at the Sweep (the wide hairpin just west of Dungarvan) to about 2 km east of the Pike (the tight hairpin to the East of Dungarvan).
This would not be a cheap build: the two ends of this scheme involve some really difficult terrain (and the section over the River Brickey is wetland).
On theoretical distance and speed it's slower to go the ring road. It's 3km/60kmh versus through the town (2.4km/50kmh). I think they've recently made the square a 30kmh "shared space", and that now makes the end result closer, so it's almost equal both ways.
The roundabouts make you cede right of way, so if there's a car even going the opposite direction to you, you must act with caution and not "chance it" until they're through. Maybe "negotiate" the roundabout is a good way to describe it. And though you negotiate 2 "proper" roundabouts through the town, the ring road has 5. HGV's naturally won't build up to full speed between some of the roundabouts. I don't think it's possible to go anywhere near the 60kmh average end-to-end. I suspect it's more like a 35-40kmh average.
Late at night or early in the morning when I pass, if there's a HGV ahead of me, I'll often go through town and come out ahead. I fully acknowledge that this is undesirable. But I also think the number of roundabouts was excessive.
Maybe we should start a new N25 thread for East of Youghal, because this is an interesting discussion IMO. Dungarvan has long been a pain in the behind, for me.
EDIT: Dial 07:00 into Google maps there, and it'll tell you through town is normally faster than the Ring Road. Whereas, if you dial in 19:00 into Google maps, it'll tell you that around town is normally faster. This echoes what I've seen and I think echoes what you're saying. Depending on the time of day, through town is faster. That's a shame, to be honest.
Its no quicker to go through the center of Dungarvan... I've been stuck coming westbound behind a car with a trailer behind it carrying a boat. It went around the ring road and I went through the center of the town to try and get past it. Speed limits all the way of course, but coming out at the final roundabout who should juust be going round it... bloody trailer and boat. And this was with no traffic on a Saturday evening late. But the problem with Dungarvan isn't just the roundabouts its the 60kmh section up The Pike to the east of the town. Thats torture and makes the overtaking line (which is terrifying to use) absolutely useless.
Sadly, the roundabouts are just as slow as going through the center can be. But I do stand by my original thing - that the entire of the N25 should be at least 2+2. Perhaps Type 1 from the end of the proposed Carrigtohill - Midleton scheme to the east of Castlemartyr where a lot of traffic leaves, but 2+2 from there all the way to the N11/N25 junction at Wexford.
If the N24 is getting at least 2+2 for the entire of its length, then this should happen for the N25 too. Theres also the small matter of the 1960s Youghal Bridge - like its predecessor that had a 20mph speed limit and chicanes, its the only river crossing south of Cappoquin. And Cappoquin has the Tullow Hairpins just west of it... not suitable for HGVs, so the alternative is the N24 which is a substantial diversion (although admittadly its actually not as much of a diversion as you probably think, look at it in google!)
I'd agree with a new thread for east of Youghal perhaps.
There is no chance of dual carriageway east of Dungarvan, nor should there be. The fact that east of Midleton is well down the priorities list tells a story, that's before the terrain difficulties east of Youghal.
An upgraded N24 will accommodate traffic between Cork and Waterford/Rosslare. The additional distance is small and the better road quality and fewer reasons to stop could make that route more fuel efficient. At that stage the N25 between Youghal and Waterford would be more suited to being a National Secondary.
Either the whole route is a primary, or none of it is: use of certain sections doesn’t come into it. Even if it did, you may not be familiar with the route, as traffic picks up a lot between Dungarvan and Waterford. The only really quiet stretch is between Dungarvan and Youghal (and further east, between New Ross and Wexford), but that is already built to a high standard, and is unlikely to need upgrading for decades.
But N24 will not replace N25. From Port of Waterford to the Jack Lynch Tunnel is 145 km via N24+M8, and 125 km via N25 (from Rosslare is 204 vs 184). You won’t last long in the freight business if you pay 12~16% more than you could have to get goods from A to B. And yes, you can travel a little faster on M8, but that uses more fuel per km, so costs more again. And while the N25 distance has potential to be reduced by about 5-6 km through the various planned bypasses, there aren’t any such possibilities on N24 - the new alignment is actually likely to be longer than the current one in order to bypass Clonmel.
The N24 has an important purpose, but that purpose is not to be the main route between Waterford and Cork (or, for that matter, between Cork and Limerick) - funnelling all traffic east of Cork through this route would require making N24 into a motorway, which would have little chance of passing planning.
Naturally traffic east of Cork would continue to use the N25. Depending on the start point/destination, the N24 may be a more attractive route, particularly if DC is provided making it an easier/safer journey. It would become even more so if the Cork NRR was built.
The fact remains, the traffic levels between Youghal and Waterford, the safety of the existing road and the difficult terrain to be contended with if building a new road will mean that such a new road is extremely unlikely to be built. We know for certain that it is not on the radar for the foreseeable future. The N24 is further ahead in the process and if delivered, it will likely impact future N25 upgrades.
Yep agreed with you there KrisW1001. The N24/M8 particularly makes little sense for those journeys originating East of the M8. South of around Dungourney it's N25 every time. North of Dungourney, it's N72 and N25.
Even if the N24 is upgraded, a large number of journeys will never migrate over. I don't think the volume on the N25 is going to go anywhere but up in the medium to long term, regardless what happens with the N24.
A bit like the M20 in that regard. On the face of it, the diversion via the N24 looks reasonably sensible but it's all the same arguments again: only a small fraction of the traffic is end-to-end and a lot of the traffic originates on the corridor.
This relates back to the original thing I said, Cork doesn't matter much at a national level and East Cork less so. There's no real comprehension at a national level of the level of industrial and economic activity in the area. But the Carrigtohill / Midleton area is reasonably significant, as is Dungarvan. This is unlike the west-of-Ireland cry of "we need infrastructure to attract industry". The industry is actually there, and the traffic likely isn't going to divert to another corridor.