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Fine Gael TD sues Dublin Hotel after falling off swing

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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,671 ✭✭✭GarIT


    is_that_so wrote: »
    That's according to their internal inquiry not the law. As I understand it you can be prosecuted for exaggerating with your own insurance company. A judge would have had to determine whether she was or not.

    She at least needs to be arrested interviewed and evidence gathered. There is a reasonable suspicion of a crime here, it should be investigated.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    is_that_so wrote:
    What makes it either of those? Seriously poor behaviour and judgement at best but ultimately no criminality. A sanction like this seems proportionate.


    Attempted fraud is more than poor behaviour as is lying. You seem to wish to downplay MBs behaviour, why?


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    GarIT wrote: »
    She at least needs to be arrested interviewed and evidence gathered. There is a reasonable suspicion of a crime here, it should be investigated.
    It was a civil case. She was making a claim and dropped it. What suspicion of a crime is there?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    The Dean is still pursuing costs hopefully they will get them, this I believe will hurt Bailey more her alleged injuries.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,211 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    is_that_so wrote: »
    That's according to their internal inquiry not the law. As I understand it you can be prosecuted for exaggerating a claim to your own insurance company. A judge would have had to determine whether she was or not.
    Im aware of that....but if its true it is criminal....that is my point...


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  • Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Attempted fraud is more than poor behaviour as is lying. You seem to wish to downplay MBs behaviour, why?
    No I like facts, unpalatable as they are. I think she deserves anything she gets but there is no crime.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    gmisk wrote: »
    Im aware of that....but if its true it is criminal....that is my point...
    No, it's not actually criminal, offensive as it is.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    is_that_so wrote:
    No I like facts, unpalatable as they are. I think she deserves anything she gets but there is no crime.
    Attempted fraud is a crime, that's a fact. Documents submitted to the court back this up.


  • Registered Users Posts: 595 ✭✭✭mike_cork


    is_that_so wrote: »
    What makes it either of those? Seriously poor behaviour and judgement at best but ultimately no criminality. A sanction like this seems proportionate.

    Because (in theory) a politician is supposed to be held to a higher standard ? Because she's a member of a party who have made public statements (and even ran a campaign) on wanting to stop fraud?

    She should be sacked ASAP.
    (And i say all of the above as someone who votes FG,as they are the least bad option.)


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Attempted fraud is a crime, that's a fact. Documents submitted to the court back this up.
    On your own policy yes.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 32,211 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    is_that_so wrote: »
    No I like facts, unpalatable as they are. I think she deserves anything she gets but there is no crime.
    What makes you sure there hasnt been a crime?
    The report suggest there is a chance there has been no?
    As another post has said it would likely be attempted fraud.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    mike_cork wrote: »
    Because (in theory) a politician is supposed to be held to a higher standard ? Because she's a member of a party who have made public statements (and even ran a campaign) on wanting to stop fraud?

    She should be sacked ASAP.
    (And i say all of the above as someone who votes FG,as they are the least bad option.)
    There's a long long list of people who should no longer be in the Dail by standards we set, yet we vote for them. TDs can't be sacked, they stay until they resign. As the article you linked to suggested they have two options for her at present. I'd guess deselection in a GE will happen too.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    is_that_so wrote:
    On your own policy yes.


    You might want to take a look at the 2001 Criminal Justice Act.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    gmisk wrote: »
    What makes you sure there hasnt been a crime?
    The report suggest there is a chance there has been no?
    That's an internal report, which is not a good place to start a prosecution. I don't believe the legislation covers this kind of thing and I couldn't see a case having any hope of success.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    You might want to take a look at the 2001 Criminal Justice Act.
    You might want to link to the part that you claim makes her suing an individual a crime, bearing in mind that it was him and not the insurance company she was seeking money from. Like all such claims the option is there to pay out off the insurance.


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,209 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    You might want to take a look at the 2001 Criminal Justice Act.

    that has the same dificulty as trying to convict her for perjury. You have to prove dishonesty.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    that has the same dificulty as trying to convict her for perjury. You have to prove dishonesty.
    Yeah pretty much my point here - the difficulty of achieving the level of proof to satisfy a conviction.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    is_that_so wrote:
    You might want to link to the part that you claim makes her suing an individual a crime, bearing in mind that it was him and not the insurance company she was seeking money from. Like all such claims the option is there to pay out off the insurance.


    I can't link off my phone. Attempted fraud or fraud whether against an individual or entity is a crime. For action to be taken a report has to be made to the guards. Whilst one has not been made it still does not mean attempted fraud has not taken place. She wasn't attempting to sue an individual. She was attempting to fraudulently sue a company.


  • Registered Users Posts: 67,112 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    that has the same dificulty as trying to convict her for perjury. You have to prove dishonesty.

    Same answer as Pearse Doherty...it isn't for you, me or Leo to 'prove', that is a matter for the Gardai. If fraud is suspected it should be reported to the Gardai and let the chips fall where they may.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    that has the same dificulty as trying to convict her for perjury. You have to prove dishonesty.


    Her own documents submitted to the court prove her dishonesty as does parts of her interview to SOR .


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  • Registered Users Posts: 40,209 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    I can't link off my phone. Attempted fraud or fraud whether against an individual or entity is a crime. For action to be taken a report has to be made to the guards. Whilst one has not been made it still does not mean attempted fraud has not taken place. She wasn't attempting to sue an individual. She was attempting to fraudulently sue a company.
    Same answer as Pearse Doherty...it isn't for you, me or Leo to 'prove', that is a matter for the Gardai. If fraud is suspected it should be reported to the Gardai and let the chips fall where they may.

    the gardai dont need to wait for a report. they can act without one. they have the same information we do. they wont act though because the chance of actually proving dishonesty is practically zero.


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,209 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Her own documents submitted to the court prove her dishonesty as does parts of her interview to SOR .

    they may show dishonesty to me or you but a court requires more than that. a court would require mens rea to be shown. that is incredibly difficult.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    I can't link off my phone. Attempted fraud or fraud whether against an individual or entity is a crime. For action to be taken a report has to be made to the guards. Whilst one has not been made it still does not mean attempted fraud has not taken place. She wasn't attempting to sue an individual. She was attempting to fraudulently sue a company.
    She did have a case, just a lesser case. It was a civil case. Burden of proof is far higher for criminal and with her civil case dropped all a bit pointless.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,542 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    Lying on an affidavit is perjury and "should" be treated as such.
    Unfortunately in Ireland the legal profession is getting to play both sides in insurance litigation.

    Quite often the case is settled solely on the information submitted when case is initially raised.
    The affidavit and supporting evidence are reviewed by the respondent and a decision is made on the cost of defending versus the cost of an immediate/negotiated settlement.

    If settling is cheaper than defending, that's usually the path taken unless the defendant has strong evidence to counter the claim made.
    That in our current system, one can make any exaggerated claim in the pleading and affidavit submitted, and then recant those statements when/if the defendant questions them in the pleadings means that a large number of cases are raised with no real grounds, and settles because it's cheaper than a robust decent.

    An affidavit is a statement of fact and lying on one is subject to sanction, yet we allow those documents to be revised on a best recollection basis with no sanction ever implemented.

    Where this becomes a major issue, is when claims are submitted solely with the intent of gaming the system.
    Bailey's claim was submitted to a court with a 60k limit, in the hope of forcing a quick settlement without progress past pleading documents.
    The Dean were meant to settle at @1/3 of the maximum amount allowable ;)
    Not have the temerity to rebutt and defend the claim.

    The Dean have done the State a huge service in defending this matter and inraising serious ethical questions regarding Madigan's behaviour which if my own hunch is right in this instance should lead to her sacking as her attempt to game the system is worse than Bailey's behaviour.

    It is very likely IMO that Bailey was advised she had an open and shut case, that Madigan was the source of that advice and that in advising Bailey, that Madigan also expected both of their political positions to both strengthen the appearance of honesty in their case and to drive the Dean to settle rather than defend.


  • Registered Users Posts: 39,663 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    If insurance fraud or attempted insurance fraud is next to near impossible to prosecute as is being made out on this thread and by the sector, then why did the industry want to fund a new Insurance Fraud Unit of the Gardaí?

    The unit would be pretty redundant from the start.

    Gross waste of money and resources.

    Something doesn't add up.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    they may show dishonesty to me or you but a court requires more than that. a court would require mens rea to be shown. that is incredibly difficult.


    Court documents submitted by Bailey claim she could not run for 3 months, yet three weeks after her 'accident' she ran a 10km 40+ seconds outside her PB. That is a verifiable lie.I run on a regular basis and it is not credible to suggest she did not train during the 3 weeks between her 'accident' and race and yet she completed the run within seconds of her PB.


  • Registered Users Posts: 67,112 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    the gardai dont need to wait for a report. they can act without one. they have the same information we do. they wont act though because the chance of actually proving dishonesty is practically zero.

    Have they questioned her and the companies involved?

    If they haven't then they are not doing their job.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    is_that_so wrote: »
    That's according to their internal inquiry not the law. As I understand it you can be prosecuted for exaggerating a claim to your own insurance company. A judge would have had to determine whether she was or not.

    So I go out to Dunnes this morning, and put a packet of crispy pancakes down the tweeds.

    I am nabbed by security guards sauntering out the door like I own the place, and crispy pancakes confiscated, and I get a warning from Dunnes, and am banned from the store.

    I didn't actually commit any crime because a judge didn't find me guilty of one?

    Bailey exaggerated her injuries, that's insurance fraud, simple.

    Besides - Maria herself said she, as a public representative should be held to a higher standard than the plebs who might rob a box of crispy pancakes, remember?
    I am a public figure and I accept I am held to a higher standard. I fully accept that, but I also expect due process ...

    Not a great precedent to be setting by Leo imo. Insurance fraud effects everyone.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    banie01 wrote: »
    Lying on an affidavit is perjury and "should" be treated as such.
    Unfortunately in Ireland the legal profession is getting to play both sides in insurance litigation.

    Quite often the case is settled solely on the information submitted when case is initially raised.
    The affidavit and supporting evidence are reviewed by the respondent and a decision is made on the cost of defending versus the cost of an immediate/negotiated settlement.

    If settling is cheaper than defending, that's usually the path taken unless the defendant has strong evidence to counter the claim made.
    That in our current system, one can make any exaggerated claim in the pleading and affidavit submitted, and then recant those statements when/if the defendant questions them in the pleadings means that a large number of cases are raised with no real grounds, and settles because it's cheaper than a robust decent.

    An affidavit is a statement of fact and lying on one is subject to sanction, yet we allow those documents to be revised on a best recollection basis with no sanction ever implemented.

    Where this becomes a major issue, is when claims are submitted solely with the intent of gaming the system.
    Bailey's claim was submitted to a court with a 60k limit, in the hope of forcing a quick settlement without progress past pleading documents.
    The Dean were meant to settle at @1/3 of the maximum amount allowable ;)
    Not have the temerity to rebutt and defend the claim.

    The Dean have done the State a huge service in defending this matter and inraising serious ethical questions regarding Madigan's behaviour which if my own hunch is right in this instance should lead to her sacking as her attempt to game the system is worse than Bailey's behaviour.

    It is very likely IMO that Bailey was advised she had an open and shut case, that Madigan was the source of that advice and that in advising Bailey, that Madigan also expected both of their political positions to both strengthen the appearance of honesty in their case and to drive the Dean to settle rather than defend.
    Indeed, were the legal firms not so keen to push for ever bigger paydays some people could be headed off. How is Madigan complicit here? She doesn't work for them.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 40,209 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    banie01 wrote: »
    Lying on an affidavit is perjury and "should" be treated as such.
    Unfortunately in Ireland the legal profession is getting to play both sides in insurance litigation.

    Quite often the case is settled solely on the information submitted when case is initially raised.
    The affidavit and supporting evidence are reviewed by the respondent and a decision is made on the cost of defending versus the cost of an immediate/negotiated settlement.

    If settling is cheaper than defending, that's usually the path taken unless the defendant has strong evidence to counter the claim made.
    That in our current system, one can make any exaggerated claim in the pleading and affidavit submitted, and then recant those statements when/if the defendant questions them in the pleadings means that a large number of cases are raised with no real grounds, and settles because it's cheaper than a robust decent.

    An affidavit is a statement of fact and lying on one is subject to sanction, yet we allow those documents to be revised on a best recollection basis with no sanction ever implemented.

    Where this becomes a major issue, is when claims are submitted solely with the intent of gaming the system.
    Bailey's claim was submitted to a court with a 60k limit, in the hope of forcing a quick settlement without progress past pleading documents.
    The Dean were meant to settle at @1/3 of the maximum amount allowable ;)
    Not have the temerity to rebutt and defend the claim.

    The Dean have done the State a huge service in defending this matter and inraising serious ethical questions regarding Madigan's behaviour which if my own hunch is right in this instance should lead to her sacking as her attempt to game the system is worse than Bailey's behaviour.

    It is very likely IMO that Bailey was advised she had an open and shut case, that Madigan was the source of that advice and that in advising Bailey, that Madigan also expected both of their political positions to both strengthen the appearance of honesty in their case and to drive the Dean to settle rather than defend.

    I'm glad you put the word "should" in quotes.


This discussion has been closed.
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