"Non book readers" - Season 8 Episode 6 "The Iron Throne" - Spoilers post 2 forw

Annabella Obnoxious Bayou

Annabella Obnoxious Bayou wrote: »

Wow, so much butthurt in this thread. Like somebody took their last rolo or their rice crispies were soggier than usual this morning. It's like an echo chamber. Is it hip to hate the show now?

There's a lot of people who are not capable of formulating their own opinions and go with whatever reddit says. At least provide an alternative instead of just whinging and crying about it. It's perfectly fine to dislike something, but this thread is a train wreck of copied opinions. Dexter is comparable to GOT? Not even close, they are not even remotely similar.

People are not able to see past the opinions which they are told to have on reddit, facebook, twitter etc.

Why was I sighing throughout that episode, tapping my feet with impatience, rolling my eyes at clunky attempts at comedy, in utter disbelief at how some of these characters interacted, wanting it to be over. I didn't read to do that on reddit. IIf this was season one, I would have given up on it.

Penn

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm confused to why people think Bran planned all this. I thought he could see everything in the past, not the future? He couldn't have known for sure that Dany would destory King's Landing.

He could definitely see the future too. We saw that when he was first becoming the 3ER and he saw a glimpse of a dragon's shadow flying across King's Landing (which turned out to be Drogon during the attack). As well as that, he knew to give Arya the dagger which she then killed the Night King with and knew Jamie was going to turn up at Winterfell (and was waiting for him).

The extent to which he can see things is up for debate, but it definitely seems like he knew the attack on King's Landing was going to happen. I guess because it was meant to happen, he therefore didn't try to stop it.

Its not my show to write but I don't like what they did write.

I honestly think the story could have been better if they had used the White Walkers as the big enemy. Dany and Jon are properly in love and get married with Dany somehow getting pregnant and nobody knowing. Maybe the humans are getting defeated in Winterfell and are forced to retreat south. Cersei gets sucked into the war. Dany can still go mad queen during the war without having to burn thousands of innocents. Varys realizes that she is losing the plot and discovers Jon's a Targaryen and conspires with Arya or someone to assassinate her. Jon eventually finds out and has Varys executed. Cersei can still die in similar circumstances when the Red Keep is destroyed. The big fighting characters could all be fighting against a White Walker, some of them losing, some on the verge of defeat. Arya can still get her moment to kill the Night King. After the war is done, there are no queens left and they need to democratically choose a king or queen. They pick Bran. (They cut out all the lines were he mentions that he can never be lord of anything) Jon goes north as a broken man after losing his pregnant wife.

I think they could have fit the story into something like that and it would have been better received.

IrishAlice

meeeeh wrote: »

Ewww. They were brought up as siblings...

Anyway Jon never wanted to rule and he doesn't have to now. The ending some want to see for him would be something he'd hate.

Am I the only one who finds it amusing that something like one couple survived in the whole series (Sam and Gilly). I guess dating is hard.

I know but it would be something they'd do in GoT :pac:

I never thought of that, dating is definitely tough there!

Unearthly

valoren wrote: »

HBO, who stumped up the money, dropped the ball on this.
GOT was their crown jewel. Creative differences should have come into force.
D&D turning in those scripts for a six part final season ought to have been ringing alarm bells.
The final season should have been 10 episodes which HBO wanted and should have demanded.
If D&D refused then their contracts should have been paid off with competent writing staff employed to give it the respect it had earned. GOT is of a literary source and thus the writing is paramount but it wasn't up to standard.

That would have been a suicide risk. Could you imagine if the new writers made an absolute balls of the show and the fans knew they binned off the people who gave them their first 7 seasons. HBO studios would have been burned to the ground Kings landing style

The narrative would be for greed reasons, HBO wanted more episodes rather than allowing the original writers tell their intended story

meeeeh

IrishAlice wrote: »

I never thought of that, dating is definitely tough there!

I actually thought someone must have been dumped a lot while writing the show.:D It's not that I particularly wanted romance but sheer probability would imply there would be more considering time and character span.

Thelonious Monk

The only episode I can remember watching that I couldn't wait for it to end.
Anyway, overall it was awesome, we shall never see the likes again!

hatrickpatrick

Worst finale ever. It was good right up until Dany got stabbed (which she totally deserved after last week's antics IMO), but how the aftermath was handled made an absolute mockery of everything GoT has been about up until now.

NuMarvel

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

The Drogon melting the throne bit was explained in a previous season.
In the second episode of Season 6, Tyrion said that: "Dragons are intelligent, more intelligent than men according to some Maesters. They have affection for their friends and fury for their enemies."
The throne and Dany's obsession with it ultimately led to her death,kinda fitting that Drogon melted it.

The melting of the throne might have worked if they showed that dragons had this level of intelligence, instead of hoping people would remember a few lines from an episode that aired about three years ago.

And if Drogon was so intelligent as to decipher that the Throne was the source of all problems, even when enraged by the assassination of his mother figure, why didn't he realise that torching the city and its inhabitants was going to put Dany in jeopardy in the first place?

For me, while melting the throne looked cool, it made no sense. And ultimately it made no major impact on the story. It could just as easily have been Bran who decided to have it destroyed after he became king.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Deleted User wrote: »

Why was I sighing throughout that episode, tapping my feet with impatience, rolling my eyes at clunky attempts at comedy, in utter disbelief at how some of these characters interacted, wanting it to be over. I didn't read to do that on reddit. IIf this was season one, I would have given up on it.

I guess you were worried about your reaction being hip enough? You, like so many others, had already written the last episode off before it even aired. Looking for plot holes and inconsistencies to be angry about. I couldn't imagine wasting my time on anything with that kind of attitude. Why bother?

People saying they can't make sense of X Y or Z, lack imagination... severely.

DeadHand

NuMarvel wrote: »

For me, while melting the throne looked cool, it made no sense. And ultimately it made no major impact on the story. It could just as easily have been Bran who decided to have it destroyed after he became king.

Or built a ramp up to it, at least.

woodchuck

Even though the first 5 episodes had their flaws, I did genuinely enjoyed watching them. But I was bitterly disappointed with episode 6. It wasn’t too bad up until Jon killed Dany (predictable, but no other way it could happen really), but it all went downhill from there.

I actually have no issues with where the Starks ended up, but there are definitely issues with HOW they got there:

- Sansa. I think it was fitting for Sansa to become the Queen of the North. But it was completely unrealistic that none of the other 6 kingdoms kicked up a fuss about not getting their independence too.

- Jon. Going off beyond the wall is probably a fitting ending for Jon. However, the way they went about getting him there was shockingly bad. It didn’t make any sense at all that he wasn’t at the forefront of everyones mind to be king (his honourable reputation, his blood right, saving them all from the mad queen etc). It would’ve been much more realistic if they had voted for Jon to be king of the 6/7 kingdoms and he had turned down the offer and decided himself to go north. It was an insult to his character to essentially banish him there. No wonder Kit Harington was disappointed.

- Bran. Oh Bran… as much as I hate his character, in theory I have no issue with him being on the throne. IN THEORY you can see how the three eyed raven is a good fit for this role. However, as the writers knew all along that that was where he was going to end up, the should’ve worked on this characters development/story this season much more than they did. This whole season he has just been a drip who stares off into space. His biggest role was acting as bait. I would’ve liked if they properly explored the significance of the three eyed raven and his connection to the Night King. So many people sacrificed themselves to make Bran the three eyed raven, but it’s still not clear if it was actually worth it.

- Arya. Ok, watching her sail off at the end felt a little naff, but I’m not sure where else she would really fit in? She just didn’t seem to have any place in Westeros anymore. She was never going to end up a lady. She’s not a natural leader or one to follow. She seemed happy enough back at Winterfell, but in the long run, she wouldn’t really have any role there. For those reasons I actually thought she’d be killed off, but as she survived, I’m not sure what else they could’ve done with her in the end.

They obviously knew where they wanted the characters to end up, but they just shoehorned them into these places without any regard for the natural progression of the characters and the story.

There were obviously many other plot holes and it came across as very very sloppy writing. My biggest bugbear this season is the shockingly poor quality of the dialogue. Compared to the witty, intelligent, mysterious, devious conversations that were had in the early seasons, the dialogue in this season could’ve been written by a 10 year old. Some of the cinematography and music was amazing, but they focused far too much on style over substance.

riffmongous

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm confused to why people think Bran planned all this. I thought he could see everything in the past, not the future? He couldn't have known for sure that Dany would destory King's Landing.

The 2 questions I would have related to that are to what extent is he still Bran (his absence in the very final sequence of the Stark children is odd) and whether he only sees the future or can he also influence it. He might do things because he saw that is what he does.. which is different to planning it

Annabella Obnoxious Bayou

Annabella Obnoxious Bayou wrote: »

I guess you were worried about your reaction being hip enough? You, like so many others, had already written the last episode off before it even aired. Looking for plot holes and inconsistencies to be angry about. I couldn't imagine wasting my time on anything with that kind of attitude. Why bother?

People saying they can't make sense of X Y or Z, lack imagination... severely.

This has been done to death

Drumpot

Annabella Obnoxious Bayou wrote: »

I guess you were worried about your reaction being hip enough? You, like so many others, had already written the last episode off before it even aired. Looking for plot holes and inconsistencies to be angry about. I couldn't imagine wasting my time on anything with that kind of attitude. Why bother?

People saying they can't make sense of X Y or Z, lack imagination... severely.

I think The joker explains it well in TDK:

JOKER: You know what I am? I'm a dog chasing cars. I wouldn't know what to do with one if I caught it! I just do things. The mob has plans. The cops have plans. Gordon's got plans. Y'know they're schemers. Schemers trying to control their little worlds. I try to show the schemers how pathetic their attempts to control things really are. So when I say that you and your girlfriend was nothing personal, you know I'm telling the truth. It's the schemers that put you where you are. You were a schemer, you had plans, and, uh, look where that got you.

I just did what I do best. I took your little plan, and I turned it on itself. Look what I did to this city with a few drums of gas and a couple of bullets, hmm? You know what I noticed? Nobody panics when things go according to plan. Even when the plan is horrifying. If tomorrow I told the press that, like, a gang-banger would get shot, or a truckload of soldiers will be blown up, nobody panics. Because it's all part of the plan. But when I say that one little old mayor will die, well then everybody loses their minds!

NuMarvel

NuMarvel wrote: »

The melting of the throne might have worked if they showed that dragons had this level of intelligence, instead of hoping people would remember a few lines from an episode that aired about three years ago.

And if Drogon was so intelligent as to decipher that the Throne was the source of all problems, even when enraged by the assassination of his mother figure, why didn't he realise that torching the city and its inhabitants was going to put Dany in jeopardy in the first place?

For me, while melting the throne looked cool, it made no sense. And ultimately it made no major impact on the story. It could just as easily have been Bran who decided to have it destroyed after he became king.

Same as many shots in the show's later seasons unfortunately, spectacle trumps sense. It looks cool in the moment, but as soon as you think about it any more it all falls apart. Drogon had the intelligence to melt the Throne in the finale, but 3 episodes before that he didn't have the intelligence (or even sight, spatial awareness) outside Winterfell to immediately take to the sky and not get swamped by wights.

Take the scene before the Throne Room in this episode, with Jon walking across the snowy courtyard to be surprised/ambushed by Drogon who was covered in snow. That scene evokes surprise in the viewer, and it was well shot. 'You thought that was a mound of snow-covered rubble, well it's actually a dragon'. It all implies that Drogon has been lying there for hours, keeping watch while Dany resides within the Throne Room. Fine so far.

However, we're then brought inside the Throne Room to be shown that Dany has only arrived there herself. So...

- She got there just before Jon. How is Drogon covered in a mound of snow as if he's been lying there for hours?

- Earlier in the episode, when Arya told Jon "I know a killer when I see one", we are shown Dany walking over towards the Throne Room with her soldiers. So why is it only later on in her death scene that she is only seeing/touching the Iron Throne for the first time?

- She obviously went somewhere else with her soldiers that time earlier in the episode after her victory speech. So, she's been dreaming of and striving towards taking the Iron Throne for most of her story. However, when she does finally take it, she doesn't actually go to see the Iron Throne or sit on it until hours after taking it?

Some can call this nit-picking if they want, but for me it's one of too many examples of how this show became 'Popcorn muncher...switch off your brain' fare by the end when it didn't start out that way. We got the spectacle of the dragon rising from the snow and melting the Throne, but if you think about it a little, the story, its universe logic and sequence of events falls apart.

citytillidie

Cash grab ending so people will buy the book for the real ending

chris_ie

First time posting on one of the episode threads, forgive me, I only started watching about a month and a half ago! Flew through all seasons. Early seasons were fantastic. The lies, scheming, shocking deaths etc. Season 8 has had some great moments but has been poor overall.

I didnt have too much of an issue with how Dany got to the point where she torched the place but there was a lot of other things that were rushed. Some scenes just seemed to be cut. Jon telling his sisters who he really was, we didn't get to see their reaction, which would have been interesting. After he kills Dany, it jumps forward to the meeting, no reaction as to the queen being found dead/missing. A lot of things that would have made good TV left out because they rushed it.

I just found Bran a rather annoying character at times too.

As I said, I watched it all recently, so can imagine those who've spent the last 9 (?) years watching it may be a bit more annoyed at the ending!

Dial Hard

citytillidie wrote: »

Cash grab ending so people will buy the book for the real ending

I can live with that if it means the stupid thing will finally be published.

turbbo

meeeeh wrote: »

I thought it was Tyrion telling him it's his duty to kill Dany. That's how I understood the quote and though it was fairly obvious.

I think what i was trying to say until uber fans got in the way, is that it sounded totally out of place - she was after burning a city full of innocent people(children included)to the ground and they talk about love as it's this unflinching thing. Surely Jon should have come to the conclusion without the clunky dialogue.
It was a naff scene with naff dialogue - my 2 cents.

_Kaiser_

Ropey cgi in places, stupid comedy scene with Tyrion and the lads at the end, Sansa proves herself a power hungry biaatch and everyone stabs Jon in the back after he saves them from disaster (oh and yea, very easy that was) although I suppose there's a bit about being North where he's always belonged.
Plus sequel with Arya? Bran as King.. Er I guess! :rolleyes:

I could go into detail but what's the point? I only started watching the show last year but I still feel cheated by that ending. Total shyte to cap a extremely rushed and poor season.

chris_ie

One other thing, part of me wondered if they were going to blow Greyworms ship out of the water! There was a line where someone said to Greyworm that everyone was on board. Thought for a second that they may have thought that he would try and continue Daenerys work and 'liberate' more places and put a stop to it, Jon could stay then sure

ricero

I feel the whole ending of the saga was out of sync and seriously flawed. I think that Cersei vs Dany should of been at the end of last season with Dany going Hitler on kings landing but with John and co keeping her onside as they needed her and her dragons and armies to defeat the night king.

The night king should of been the focal point of the story as I feel season 8 died in episode 3 for many once he was knifed by Arya.

turbbo

Mickeroo wrote: »

Accurate pish now at least.

I give you that.

peddlelies

ricero wrote: »

The night king should of been the focal point of the story as I feel season 8 died in episode 3 for many once he was knifed by Arya.

Def agree with this, anything that happened after the night king was going to be anticlimactic.

I'd have liked to see the dead totally overrun Winterfell and a retreat to Kings landing or something of that ilk..

turbbo

ricero wrote: »

The night king should of been the focal point of the story as I feel season 8 died in episode 3 for many once he was knifed by Arya.

Tend to agree with that. I wouldn't have back at episode 3 but definitely looking back on it. It would have been bolder and would have kept the viewers interest to the end.

no.8

woodchuck wrote:

Even though the first 5 episodes had their flaws, I did genuinely enjoyed watching them. But I was bitterly disappointed with episode 6. It wasn’t too bad up until Jon killed Dany (predictable, but no other way it could happen really), but it all went downhill from there.

Great post. Well balanced (imo). Almost portraying my exact feelings on S8 to a tee.

Cianos

Something I haven't seen mentioned elsewhere was how in some ways things revert back to how the world was prior to S01E01.

The mad Targaryen, the wildlings' retreat to once again be 'the folk beyond the wall', the white walkers and dragons disappearing into dust and memory where in hundreds of years people will question whether they actually ever existed. The Nightswatch being seen by many as a pointless effort against a fictitious threat.

fwiw I hated the last episode and the last season in general, but nonetheless!

Paddy Cow

Penn wrote: »

Agreed, and I think Tyrion's speech to Jon summed it all up perfectly and demonstrated the clear cause and effect of it all through her whole journey. Her advisors always helped control her worst impulses, but those impulses were always there. Then her victories were always cheered because she defeated bad people, but it all created a God complex for her and she believed herself to be the absolute judge of right and wrong. Without anyone she trusted to ask her to reconsider and with absolute belief this was her destiny, she came to believe anything she chose to do was right, because she decides what it right.

I thought Jon's conversations with Tyrion and Dany herself gave as good an explanation and examination of who Dany had become as was possible. Possibly a bit late at that stage and would have preferred to see Jon come to some of those conclusions a bit earlier though, rather than just parroting "She is our Queen" to everyone.

Jon telling her he had the most legitimate claim to the throne also helped push her over the edge and fed into her paranoia. When he found out she was his Aunt, he no longer wanted to do sexy time. The idea repulsed him. She was paranoid that his rejection meant that he was going to stake his claim and it didn't matter how many times he said he didn't want it - Jon became her biggest threat.

storker

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Also, why is the nights watch still there? The wildlings got annihilated by the WW, who are gone themselves. Who are they guarding against?

"Grumpkins and snarks" of course.