The Irish Ham wars

_Brian

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Re: TB: I assume the reason nobody is very worried about swine TB is because of the factory-farming method: pigs on these farms live indoors 24/7 and there is usually a decent level of infection control in place which impedes some types of disease, including TB, from entering or leaving.

Salmonella is common though. Apparently Ireland has some of the prevalent incidence of salmonella infection in the European pig herd.

That's why my relative was so concerned with the practices observed in the laboratory of an Irish abbatoir: salmonella samples being mis-labeled, or not labeled at all. As this isn't a routine veterinary/ Department of Ag function, and is undertaken by the abbatoir itself, it's pretty much out of the vets' hands. They're not hired to supervise the labs, except maybe occasional visits. How occasional, I don't know.

Why isn't this tackled? I don't know. I can only speculate that it's not in the farmers' or abbatoirs' interests. They are a tiny, but economically fairly powerful group who pretty much run their own affairs.

I’m sure if there were a serious issue they would highlight it to the dept, vets I know are no wallflowers and certainly not afraid to make hard calls when it needed.

Muahahaha

lalababa wrote: »

Abattoirs: there are c.60,000 pigs killed per WEEK in Ireland. With Rosderra killing 30k+ in two facilities. Staunton and Dawn pork are the other big players.

wow those are some numbers. Is pork production here the same as beef, i.e. around 95% is exported abroad?

_Brian wrote: »

Cattle are checked individually for TB as it’s a problem. Isn’t an issue in pigs that I know of.

Otherwise cattle are treated at a herd level for parasites etc.

So if treating at the herd level would it happen that an entire herd could be infected with something before the vets even knew? And what happens then, a huge cull of the entire herd? Id presume that is a huge financial loss to the pig farmer, seems strange that they wouldnt try to prevent it happening in the first place by closer vet inspections?

The Tetrarch

My two dogs love Brady sliced ham.
There is a ham war if they don't get any.

_Brian

_Brian wrote: »

I’m sure if there were a serious issue they would highlight it to the dept, vets I know are no wallflowers and certainly not afraid to make hard calls when it needed.

It has been highlighted, but a vet spends most of their time on the killing line. They aren't paid to supervise lab staff (who are hired by the Abbatoir). Anyway, we're straying back into anecdote and Duirt bean liom go nduirt bean lei.

The bottom line, though, is there is a serious problem with things like salmonellosis in Irish pigs, as well as respiratory diseases which cause, or aggravate, human illness. That is reason in itself to be worried about intensive farming practices -- in any sector, but especially pigs and poultry.

_Brian

Muahahaha wrote: »

wow those are some numbers. Is pork production here the same as beef, i.e. around 95% is exported abroad?



So if treating at the herd level would it happen that an entire herd could be infected with something before the vets even knew? And what happens then, a huge cull of the entire herd? Id presume that is a huge financial loss to the pig farmer, seems strange that they wouldnt try to prevent it happening in the first place by closer vet inspections?

Not going to comment on commercial pig health issues as I wouldn’t have much experience of that.

gozunda

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

It has been highlighted, but a vet spends most of their time on the killing line. They aren't paid to supervise lab staff (who are hired by the Abbatoir). Anyway, we're straying back into anecdote and Duirt bean liom go nduirt bean lei.

The bottom line, though, is there is a serious problem with things like salmonellosis in Irish pigs, as well as respiratory diseases which cause, or aggravate, human illness. That is reason in itself to be worried about intensive farming practices -- in any sector, but especially pigs and poultry.

You linked one single paper in relation to the issue of pig tail lesions and respiratory infections. That paper does not support your assumptions with regards to "cause, or aggravate, human illness"(sic). Bar your own comments you've provided nothing to back that up.

Whilst I support extensive pig rearing - I see nothing here that provides for the above conclusion.

Muahahaha

_Brian wrote: »

Doesn’t have to be about famine era foods. I talking about an interest in good foods.

There is no interest in cooking good meals from raw ingredients, there is far too much reliance on pre prepared highly processed foods.

It’s abkut buying power too, being interested enough to choose free range eggs rather than the cheaper battery eggs, Irish beef over the cheapest beef, lifting meat and checking the label to ensure its Irish origin rather than imported. Irish produced rape seed oil over imported olive oil.

I get the sentiment of sourcing good ingredients and agree with it but I can never understand why people are going for Irish rape seed oil over a good Italian olive oil. A cafe near me even uses the stuff as a dressing on their salads and to be honest I find it rank to taste. I know that Irish rape seed oil is pushed a lot by TV chefs, Neven Maguire especially who always lauds it anytime he puts a pan on the hob. AFAIK this is because he is in the pay of Bord Bia to push certain Irish products on his programs, it doesnt necessarily mean they are good products, some are, some arent. But for me rape seed oil will never come anywhere near a good olive oil, they are worlds apart imo.

_Brian

Muahahaha wrote: »

I get the sentiment of sourcing good ingredients and agree with it but I can never understand why people are going for Irish rape seed oil over a good Italian olive oil. A cafe near me even uses the stuff as a dressing on their salads and to be honest I find it rank to taste. I know that Irish rape seed oil is pushed a lot by TV chefs, Neven Maguire especially who always lauds it anytime he puts a pan on the hob. AFAIK this is because he is in the pay of Bord Bia to push certain Irish products on his programs, it doesnt necessarily mean they are good products, some are, some arent. But for me rape seed oil will never come anywhere near a good olive oil, they are worlds apart imo.

Each to their own.
We use it all the time and find it brilliant and supporting the Irish economy which is a bonus.

gozunda

gozunda wrote: »

You linked one single paper in relation to the issue of pig tail lesions and respiratory infections. That paper does not support your assumptions with regards to "cause, or aggravate, human illness"(sic). Bar your own comments you've provided nothing to back that up.

to be clear, I'm referring to salmonellosis in pigs as causing or aggravating human illness.

We'll know you've clutched your last straw when you ask for a reference for that, I guess.

gozunda

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

to be clear, I'm referring to salmonellosis in pigs as causing or aggravating human illness. We'll know you've clutched your last straw when you ask for a reference for that, I guess.

Eh excuse please. You provided the reference, however it doesn't back up your claim copied below. And yet you continue.

The bottom line, though, is there is a serious problem with things like salmonellosis in Irish pigs, as well asrespiratory diseases which cause, or aggravate, human illness. That is reason in itself to be worried about intensive farming practices -- in any sector, but especially pigs and poultry.

Fine. If you can't stand over your claim and show where in that paper it's detailed - it's no skin of anyone else's nose ...

gozunda

gozunda wrote: »

Eh excuse please. You provided the reference, however it doesn't back up the claim which you referenced earlier in the thread and copied below. And yet you continue.



Fine. If you can't stand over your claim and show where in that paper it's detailed - it's no skin of anyone else's nose ...

Why are you only highlighting the bit about respiratory diseases? I am referring to salmonellosis.

Do you want to turn this into a debate about a misplaced comma? Is that how ridiculous this has gotten, a few hours after your daft comment about self-sufficiency in potatoes?

We understand you made a mistake on the potatoes. Move on dude.

gozunda

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Why are you only highlighting the bit about respiratory diseases?
Do you want to turn this into a debate about a misplaced comma? Is that how ridiculous this has gotten, a few hours after your daft comment about self-sufficiency in potatoes? We understand you made a mistake on the potatoes. Move on dude.

Likley for the same reason that the claim made below about respiratory diseases and which I clearly previously pointed out does not stand up to scrutiny - so why prevaricate? There was no mention of "salmonellosis" with this comment btw - from previous:

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote:

.The biggest problems with intensive pig-farming relate to human public health (there is some evidence that respiratory disease is more prevalent in Irish pigs than elsewhere in Europe)

The paper you referenced does not back that claim up.

Ah so I get you the potato comment (which you took up incorrectly on a different thread btw) was tit for tat? Nice. Thanks I'll leave you with the above completely unsubstantiated claim.

I do wonder why the tirade though? It's not the usual form tbh. As I said I'm no great fan of the way majority of pigs are reared - but it's not the done thing to make claims about other people's businesses is it? I'll leave you with it.

gozunda

Muahahaha wrote: »

I get the sentiment of sourcing good ingredients and agree with it but I can never understand why people are going for Irish rape seed oil over a good Italian olive oil. A cafe near me even uses the stuff as a dressing on their salads and to be honest I find it rank to taste. I know that Irish rape seed oil is pushed a lot by TV chefs, Neven Maguire especially who always lauds it anytime he puts a pan on the hob. AFAIK this is because he is in the pay of Bord Bia to push certain Irish products on his programs, it doesnt necessarily mean they are good products, some are, some arent. But for me rape seed oil will never come anywhere near a good olive oil, they are worlds apart imo.

I would agree about a good olive oil tbh. The main difference with the rape seed oil is that- it has a high smoking point compared to olive oil and is useful for cooking at higher temperatures.

ham_n_mustard

How did I miss this thread??

Muahahaha

ham_n_mustard wrote: »

How did I miss this thread??

username definitely checks out lol

Muahahaha

gozunda wrote: »

I would agree about a good olive oil tbh. The main difference with the rape seed oil is that- it has a high smoking point compared to olive oil and is useful for cooking at higher temperatures.

It is but even then then if you need to cook at very high temperatures like in a wok or similar then peanut oil or sesame oil are best for that task as their smoking point is a fair bit higher than both olive oil and rape seed oil, especially the refined versions.

I just dont get this thing that seems to have crept into Ireland that Irish rape seed oil is somehow better than imported extra virgin olive, it seems to be very much led by food bloggers, writers and tv chefs over the last two years and I'd take a good guess that that has happened because Bord Bia are behind the marketing push.

Its not a better product imo and never will be. If you made a French or Italian vinaigrette with rape seed oil it would never taste like how a French or Italian vinaigrette is supposed to taste. Rape seed oil just simply isnt any kind of substitute for a good quality extra virgin olive oil, especially not when used in salads or in vinagrettes. Yet rape seed oil seems to fly off the shelves in Irish supermarkets, it seems if you tell some people a product is Irish and made here then they automatically believe it to be superior to the foreign alternative. Not in this case imo, a good quality olive oil will always be the superior product. And if it olive oil wasnt the superior product then we would be seeing the French, Italians and Spaniards importing Irish rape seed oil instead of using their own olive oils.

OldMrBrennan83

Probably all comes down to whether a person prefers rape seed oil or olive oil.

_Brian

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

Probably all comes down to whether a person prefers rape seed oil or olive oil.

This after hours, your not allowed personal opinion, it’s my opinion or your wrong

gozunda

_Brian wrote: »

This after hours, your not allowed personal opinion, it’s my opinion or your wrong

I could disagree with you - but then we'ed both be wrong.

OldMrBrennan83

We're all wrong!

whisky_galore

Muahahaha wrote: »

the French, Italians and Spaniards importing Irish rape seed oil instead of using their own olive oils.

Those three nationalities think any food from outside of their respective countries is muck! Italians especially.

Aska

Thelonious Monk wrote:

There are now more pigs than people in Spain

There is a place in Cork called IBS where we drew in pallets of Spanish pork. There was talk among the hauliers that they also import blast frozen pork from China but I dont have prood of that.

Also Brady ham and Glensallagh ham and the Deluxe ham all come out of the Brady / O'Brien factory in Timahoe

Former Observer

I worked in a very busy meat packing plant as a young man. The chite you'd see would turn your stomach. Rashers scooped up off the floor/conveyor belt and put back in packaging, polish meat thrown into packaging marked as 100% Irish. I remember sorting through pork loins checking which ones were infested with maggots. Was too ignorant to see it for what it was.

Aside from this, I feel that people shouldn't have the choice to buy factory farmed eggs or pork. It should be illegal to sell. If you want eggs the only option should be free range. The alternative is appalling and the hallmark of a very sick, ignorant society.

gozunda

gozunda wrote: »

Likley for the same reason that the claim made below about respiratory diseases and which I clearly previously pointed out does not stand up to scrutiny - so why prevaricate? There was no mention of "salmonellosis" with this comment btw - from previous:

You're now quoting a completely different post. You're head is scrambled, man.

Yes, there are concerns about the abnormally high levels of respiratory infection in pigs, and the implications for human health in this respect mainly pertains to farm workers. That's because humans and pigs have similar respiratory physiology

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/irt/2011/846910/

However, salmonellosis is the dominant concern for human health. That is another disease which is unusually high on Irish pig farms. .

If you're still not getting it, I cannot help you.

gozunda

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

You're now quoting a completely different post. You're head is scrambled, man. Yes, there are concerns about the abnormally high levels of respiratory infection in pigs, and the implications for human health in this respect mainly pertains to farm workers. That's because humans and pigs have similar respiratory physiologyhttps://www.hindawi.com/journals/irt/2011/846910/
However, salmonellosis is the dominant concern for human health. That is another disease which is unusually high on Irish pig farms. .
If you're still not getting it, I cannot help you.

Nope. Wrong. It's two comments where you referred to "respiratory disease" and pigs (mention both above and previously) and your claim regarding this and human public health/ human illness. None of which was backed up by the paper you referenced.

That you are still avoiding explaining that - meh. So I'll leave you with it...

gozunda

gozunda wrote: »

Nope. Wrong. It's two comments where you referred to "respiratory disease" and pigs (mention both above and previously) and your claim regarding this and human public health/ human illness. None of which was backed up by the paper you referenced.

Wait, are you really saying that you don't think respiratory infections of LA-MRSA, which we know is aggravated by intensive farming, cannot be transmitted to human beings, such as farm workers or anyone else handling the animals from birth to slaughter?

The paper I referred to was intended to undeline the similarities between the human and porcine respiratory systems. I thought it was obvious, or that most farm workers would know, about LA-MRSA and the dangers associated with it.

gozunda

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Wait, are you really saying that you don't think respiratory infections of LA-MRSA, which we know is aggravated by intensive farming, cannot be transmitted to human beings, such as farm workers or anyone else handling the animals from birth to slaughter?

The paper I referred to was intended to undeline the similarities between the human and porcine respiratory systems. I thought it was obvious, or that most farm workers would know, about LA-MRSA and the dangers associated with it.

Read what was written. Its fairly straightforward.
Nothing to do with what anyone else 'thinks'. It does relate however to not being able to back up your previous claim regarding respiratory disease, pigs and public human health with the referenced paper. But as said I'll leave you with it.Thanks.

Muahahaha

whisky_galore wrote: »

Those three nationalities think any food from outside of their respective countries is muck! Italians especially.

ah yeah definitely a snobbishness about them but when they've got some of the best local produce available anywhere in the world and a rich tradition in the culinary arts who could blame them. The French laugh at us for exporting so much of our fish to them when we hardly eat any of it ourselves. In a way they have a point, we have this fantastic product on our doorstep yet most of us are either scared to cook it or else just dont want to eat it.

Buford T. Justice XIX

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Re: TB: I assume the reason nobody is very worried about swine TB is because of the factory-farming method: pigs on these farms live indoors 24/7 and there is usually a decent level of infection control in place which impedes some types of disease, including TB, from entering or leaving.

Salmonella is common though. Apparently Ireland has some of the most prevalent incidence of salmonella infection in the European pig herd.

That's why my relative was so concerned with the practices observed in the laboratory of an Irish abbatoir: salmonella samples being mis-labeled, or not labeled at all. As this isn't a routine veterinary/ Department of Ag function, and is undertaken by the abbatoir itself, it's pretty much out of the vets' hands. They're not hired to supervise the labs, except maybe occasional visits. How occasional, I don't know.

Why isn't this tackled? I don't know. I can only speculate that it's not in the farmers' or abbatoirs' interests. They are a tiny, but economically fairly powerful group who pretty much run their own affairs.

You'll have to take that issue up with the relevant factories. Farmers are looking for increased Dept of Agriculture supervision of factories with a good number of years, particularly with regards to Automatic grading and its supervision. Or lack of it.
https://www.farmersjournal.ie/factory-grading-machines-found-to-be-inaccurate-437605

Muahahaha wrote: »

Whats the purpose of cutting their tails and pulling their teeth? And who does this, a vet?



Is the one vet for 50,000 figure true? Like how long would it take a vet to check and do tests on 50,000 animals? Seems impossible.

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

No, on the intensive farms, farm hands do it. I don't think even a defender of the intensive pig farms would claim that it's vets who are doing this work.

For this reason, it's also completely laughable, and again, impractical, to suggest that anaesthetic is used.

While not a core subject in neither my undergraduate nor postgraduate curriculum but an elective in both, I'll attempt to answer most of your questions despite more qualified posters being unwilling to engage in this.
What anaesthetic would you recommend be used? A list of some of the regulations to be passed pre approval and some of the off label regulations which would probably where your aeaesthetic would be sourced. Firstly, from undergraduate notes, the birth process itself is the most stressful part of a piglets first few days of existence but no anaesthetic is used for this.
Remember also that, by it's nature, said drug would have a high death rate if given at higher than recommended levels and would have a barely perceptible effect at less than the recommended dose. Then, with a narrow range of effectiveness, you will have to contend with variable birth weights so every single piglet would have to be weighed, accurately (how to actually achieve that is worthy of a thread in itself:D), doseages calibrated individually and piglets securely held while all that is being performed which I doubt would receive much enthusiasm in a sector losing between 5 and 10 euro a pig currently.https://www.farmersjournal.ie/cashflow-concerns-see-pig-producers-call-crisis-meeting-454751

Figures he calculated showed a 95kg pig retailed for a combined value of €585, while farmers received just €135 for the same pig at a price of €1.50/kg.

BTW, those ratios are echoed across the entire food industry.
Some links included above, I'm sure you can look up same for yourself but I've included them all the same.

Tail-cutting is done to prevent other pigs biting tails, and teeth-cutting is done to prevent the piglets damaging a sow's teats.

Have you ever asked just why those practices are carried out? In the case of damaging sows teats, that will heal but when the teat sphincter muscle is damaged mastitis will be a probable occurrence meaning at best, a reduced quantity and quality of milk from that teat as piglets generally would remain on a single teat while sucking. At worst, the teat dries off meaning fostering a piglet (a job best done soon after birth to prevent rejection an spread of diseases) or the sow dies from toxemia and probably most of the litter also. While I don't particularly care for the process, I recognise the balance of best possible outcomes from the process is is favour of the practice.
Tailing is again a least worst option, biting tails can be reduced by exotic plastic toys being provided but again you will have some that will have their tails damaged and subsequent reduced performance and deaths.

While you may wish to inhabit a very black and white world, out here where reality resides, every decision is a different shade of grey. It's probably something many would need to acquaint themselves with.

That is Veterinary Ireland's figure. There are only a handful of pig vets in the country. It's a tiny speciality. There are probably more exotic specialists than pig specialists.

Vets don't routinely treat individual pigs on these farms,at least not in the way that they do treat individual cattle or other domesticated large animals. They treat animals at the herd level. Tommy the pigman with 5,000 pigs on his farm isn't going to call the vet because one piglet has a hernia. It just doesn't happen, at least not on the massive industrial farms

You may have to define what constitutes a 'massive industrial farm'. It's a rather easy slur to throw out there, isn't it, so perhaps some figures around where, in your definition, the cutoff point is should be provided to provide some clarity?

Muahahaha

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

While not a core subject in neither my undergraduate nor postgraduate curriculum but an elective in both, I'll attempt to answer most of your questions despite more qualified posters being unwilling to engage in this.
What anaesthetic would you recommend be used? A list of some of the regulations to be passed pre approval and some of the off label regulations which would probably where your aeaesthetic would be sourced. Firstly, from undergraduate notes, the birth process itself is the most stressful part of a piglets first few days of existence but no anaesthetic is used for this.
Remember also that, by it's nature, said drug would have a high death rate if given at higher than recommended levels and would have a barely perceptible effect at less than the recommended dose. Then, with a narrow range of effectiveness, you will have to contend with variable birth weights so every single piglet would have to be weighed, accurately (how to actually achieve that is worthy of a thread in itself:D), doseages calibrated individually and piglets securely held while all that is being performed which I doubt would receive much enthusiasm in a sector losing between 5 and 10 euro a pig currently.https://www.farmersjournal.ie/cashflow-concerns-see-pig-producers-call-crisis-meeting-454751

Just on anaesthesia and animals the advances in veterinary medicine have been pretty astoininshing over the last decade. Vets are now routinely putting small kittens to sleep for surgery.

I'm not saying it isn't complicated to do the same to a piglet when you've got thousands of them on a farm. But it is the humane thing to do rather than pulling their teeth out and cutting their tails off without giving numbing them before hand.

I doubt any consumer of pork would care all that much to pay a few cents more for a packet of ham if it meant that the piglets didnt suffer in what I can only imagine is excruciating pain at have their teeth pulled and tails chopped off. Its obviously something that could only be introduced at the regulatory level with all farms having to do it in order for it to work. EU level would be better to ensure a level playing field for all piggerys across Europe.