The Irish Ham wars

gozunda

RickDeckard wrote: »

I presume you are referring to my post?So you build a straw man and knock it down, well done big fella.Read this slowly:I do not think there is any problem eating pigs, or eating any animal for that matter, its all the same in the end, everything eats everything else on this planet, that is the way it is.BUT I have a massive problem with the way meat is produced industrially, the Pig industry in Ireland being a prime example. Intensive Pig farming is inherently cruel and barbaric, if you deny this, then you are in denial or a fool.I've worked in Meat Factories and Meat Processing when I was a lad, I know exactly what happens inside the walls.If you intend to reply to my post, reply to the content of my post, not what you presume me to have said.

Lol. Finished? Nope I was referring to the whole raft of angry plant activist language that's turned up on queue. But yeah the posts reads like the usual text book provegie tirade "cognitive dissonance" "dog thou" blah blah blah. This stuff like regurgitated vomit these days - it's all over the place and as obvious as ****e ...

And If you bother to read this thread you would have noticed I and many others have detailed not supporting Industrial style pork production But there you go. Dont let that stop you ...

Serrano, Iberico and Parma ham are examples of REAL ham, dried leg of pig hung from the charcuterie counter ceiling. And with the “caviar” variant of Pata Negra then some rustic farmer in the mountains above the Costa feel Sol will have hand-reared his couple of free range acorn-eating pigs. ,

EmmetSpiceland

gozunda wrote: »

Yup I see the preachers have arrived. Fair play lads only the stench of sanctimonious bs is getting very strong. If you dont like meat fine - no one's making you eat it. It's not like people are slapping the veggie burgers out of your hand or anything. So if ye can cut the hyperbole about cute / ugly monkies, dogs and cannibalism (sic) down that would be great. Personally I reckon pigs are very handsome animals. I eat pork and bacon and buy free range from my local butcher when I'm not raising my own. But there we go.

You’re confusing the issue now, hombre.

No one has any problem with the quality of meat coming off the fatted calf or suckling pig from the farm down the road, the issue is with the quality of the product, I won’t even flatter it by saying “meat”, in the packet ham sold for peanuts in the supermarket.

Everyone is entitled to eat whatever animal products they like but the marketing of the lowest grade stuff is downright despicable.

dont bother

gozunda wrote: »

Nope. Read the thread. Not just me and people can chose themselves where they want to buy their pork. I recommend free range and organic where possible.

You seem very angry - why is that? The "Mad GAA freckle brigade / pigs" ???? I've heard it all now. Cultural racism and hate speech is alive and well apparently...

Btw did you ever hear of the famous Dublin dish called Coddle? It's made with bacon and sausages btw - but dont let that stop you calling people outside Dublin "culchies" and "culchie scum" ... :rolleyes:

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/food-and-drink/there-are-hundreds-of-coddle-recipes-but-mine-is-the-true-dublin-one-1.1596150

what are you a psychic? why do you think i'm angry? or is that just a pathetic attempt at making me out to be irrational?

i didnt say culchie or culchie scum once !? so you are just making things up now.

anyway, my point is, you said people have a choice to get "good" meat, but other people have pointed out that that's usually only a marketing gimmick, there is no such thing as it being in any way humane or "good" if these intelligent animals continue to be butchered en masse simply to feed greedy people who could easily go without it.

theres' a reason that pork is said to be bad for you - plenty of them, a lot of the same reasons that are given about why consuming human flesh is bad for you.

pigs are extremely intelligent and form very close bonds with their siblings. it is true that when a pig is being slaughtered and other pigs hear it squealing, there is panic, as they know fine well that they're next.

i can safely say that pigs are more intelligent than some people on this thread.

Brady's ham. fvck off.

RickDeckard

gozunda wrote: »

Lol. Finished? Nope I was referring to the whole raft of angry plant activist language that's turned up on queue. But yeah the posts reads like the usual text book provegie tirade "cognitive dissonance" "dog thou" blah blah blah. This stuff like regurgitated vomit these days - it's all over the place and as obvious as ****e ...

And If you bother to read this thread you would have noticed I and many others have detailed not supporting Industrial style pork production But there you go. Dont let that stop you ...

You may not like the language, but Congnative Dissonance is exactly what is happening.
tbh, Im not sure what your point is.

_Brian

Someone above said pigs live in suffering every day...


I think thats a wayyy over the top exageration, yea they don't roam and root and I think that is a pity, but we shouldnt loose the run of ourselves either. Pigs like many farmed animals only thrive when happy and healthy..


Would I like us to trnasition to more outdoor rearing, damn sure I would, but I'm not going to preqach down at intensive farmers either..


If consumers want change they don't have to come on the internet going on and on at farmers, vote with your shopping basket.. Buy from artisan meat outlets that don't use industrial methods, that pushes more of that sort of production and less industrial via demand..


Consumers get the food they deserve based on their choices, continue to choose the cheapest hyper processed crap and more of same is produced to meet your demands... Buy better quality products more ethically produced and that market expands...




Its like the choir calling for glyphosate and other chemicals to be banned, fine, lets all go organic, I've no problem paying more for my food, but will joe soap be happy with his organic cornflakes after their 50% increase in price..

gozunda

dont bother wrote: »

what are you a psychic? why do you think i'm angry? or is that just a pathetic attempt at making me out to be irrational? i didnt say culchie or culchie scum once !? so you are just making things up now.
anyway, my point is, you said people have a choice to get "good" meat, but other people have pointed out that that's usually only a marketing gimmick, there is no such thing as it being in any way humane or "good" if these intelligent animals continue to be butchered en masse simply to feed greedy people who could easily go without it. theres' a reason that pork is said to be bad for you - plenty of them, a lot of the same reasons that are given about why consuming human flesh is bad for you. pigs are extremely intelligent and form very close bonds with their siblings. it is true that when a pig is being slaughtered and other pigs hear it squealing, there is panic, as they know fine well that they're next. i can safely say that pigs are more intelligent than some people on this thread.
Brady's ham. fvck off.

Well the reference to your country brethren as 'Mad GAA freckle brigade / pigs " would indeed indicate some Inherent anger tbh. Irrational? The reference to 'culchie scum' comes from a previous post of yours. Nice...

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057926873/1/#post108563931.

Btw thanks for clarifying you're position. It's evident that you do not care about improving animal welfare and supporting better standards. It's just another tirade telling people what they shoud eat and using the usual hyperbole and stupid bs human flesh blah blah bs to ram home the the usual provegie message. Thing is - the same rubbish is on every vegie activist / extremist website on the internet. Dont like that being pointed out? Well that's tough. But there you go.

gozunda

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

You’re confusing the issue now, hombre.
No one has any problem with the quality of meat coming off the fatted calf or suckling pig from the farm down the road, the issue is with the quality of the product, I won’t even flatter it by saying “meat”, in the packet ham sold for peanuts in the supermarket.
Everyone is entitled to eat whatever animal products they like but the marketing of the lowest grade stuff is downright despicable.

Nope - dont think so miguel. The issue is - there is a choice. And people can support good standards of welfare - it's not that difficult. But yeah as I commented to your posts previously ...

gozunda wrote: »

You seem to have a thing for words like anuses bungholes and slurry in your comments. Perhaps you'd be better attacking the companies directly rather than throwing random ****e and seeing where it comes down?

You then accused others of having shares in the industry et as if all criticism of your overhyped hyperbole was somehow rooted in financial interest. :rolleyes: And nope I have no financial or other interest in pig farming. I do however support those who chose better welfare standards. But you know that already.

_Brian

_Brian wrote: »

Someone above said pigs live in suffering every day...


I think thats a wayyy over the top exageration, yea they don't roam and root and I think that is a pity, but we shouldnt loose the run of ourselves either. Pigs like many farmed animals only thrive when happy and healthy..

I don't think anybody has said that. But pigs have it worse than any other Irish livestock, with the exception of live-export cattle, probably.

But the aesthetics of a pig-farm are the least of their worries. The biggest problems with intensive pig-farming relate to human public health (there is some evidence that respiratory disease is more prevalent in Irish pigs than elsewhere in Europe) and animal health and cruelty: especially things like routine illegal tail-cauterization and tooth clipping (without anaesthetic).

Veterinary Ireland isn't in the habit of criticising farmers, but they have in the past expressed serious concerns about welfare in the pig industry.

Not that pig-farmers care much about vets anyway. There is 1 vet serving the pig industry for every 50,000 sows in this country. It isn't farming as we know it, it's factory production.

gozunda

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I don't think anybody has said that. But pigs have it worse than any other Irish livestock, with the exception of live-export cattle, probably. But the aesthetics of a pig-farm are the least of their worries. The biggest problems with intensive pig-farming relate to human public health (there is some evidence that respiratory disease is more prevalent in Irish pigs than elsewhere in Europe) and animal health and cruelty: especially things like routine illegal tail-cauterization and tooth clipping (without anaesthetic). Veterinary Ireland isn't in the habit of criticising farmers, but they have in the past expressed serious concerns about welfare in the pig industry. Not that pig-farmers care much about vets anyway. There is 1 vet serving the pig industry for every 50,000 sows in this country. It isn't farming as we know it, it's factory production.

Ok thats a hell of lot of assumptions and suppositions tbh. As I said I support free range pig production. However exactly what are you getting at with regard to "human public health (there is some evidence that respiratory disease is more prevalent in Irish pigs than elsewhere in Europe)

Any pig farm I visited (and that includes some intensive ones) - had very very high standards of bio security - for the very reasons you're alleging. You are also critical of "veterinary ireland" and all farmers but at the same time claim to have got that information on pig production from the same source? Then the coup de grace that you somehow know for a fact that all pig farmers don't care much "about vets anyway". .

Personally I would bring in only outdoor rearing and increased prices. However your thread is starting a lot to sound more like a one man tirade against the entire pig meat industy than anything else.


This kinda proves that point tbh.

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

A burning, boiled decomposing corpse, since the animal has to pass through flames (to burn the hair off) and a tank of boiling water before reaching the men with the knives. Sounds a bit like a episode of Gladiators.

From that little piece - I somehow reckon you dont like pork whether it's free range organic or even if it was reared by the arch angel Michael...

gozunda

gozunda wrote: »

Ok thats a hell of lot of assumptions and suppositions tbh. As I said I support free range pig production. However exactly what are you getting at with regard to "human public health (there is some evidence that respiratory disease is more prevalent in Irish pigs than elsewhere in Europe)

Any pig farm I visited (and that includes some intensive ones) - had very very high standards of bio security - for the very reasons you're alleging. You are also critical of "veterinary ireland" and all farmers but at the same time claim to have got t
information on pig production from the same source? Then the coup de grace that you somehow know for a fact that all pig farmers care nothing "about vets anyway". .

Personally I would bring in only outdoor rearing and increased prices. However your thread is starting a lot to sound more like a one man tirade against the entire pig meat industy than anything else.

Jesus. Where to start with this. You're posting hysterically here this evening dude, chill out a bit.

1. Yes there is evidence that suggests Irish pig farms encounter more prevalent respiratory infections than our European equivalents. 'Relationship between tail lesions and lung health in slaughter pigs. Prev Vet Med. 2016, May 1; 127:21

2. I am not critical -- even slightly -- of Veterinary Ireland. I think they have been very vocal about their concerns about pig farming, and rightly so.

3. Go and have a lie-down will you? You're all over the place. You're replying to everyone quicker than, it seems, you can even read these posts.

https://www.enriquetomas.com/es/blog/en/glosario/the-iberian-pig/

These pigs mostly have a good life and taste great too.

I once stayed on a great organic pig farm in a neighbouring county not far from Carlow town. He hails his own humanely & does his own butchery. Turns up at likes of Bloom to sell his great produce.

gozunda

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Jesus. Where to start with this. You're posting hysterically here this evening dude, chill out a bit.1. Yes there is evidence that suggests Irish pig farms encounter more prevalent respiratory infections than our European equivalents. 'Relationship between tail lesions and lung health in slaughter pigs. Prev Vet Med. 2016, May 1; 127:21

Lol. I'm not the poster losing my frillies over every big pig producer in the country tbh.

You conflated a single paper on pig tail lesions and lung health with a universal risk to human health. That is not only disingenuous but makes for a very poor support to what's coming across as a personal dislike of pork etc

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

2. I am not critical -- even slightly -- of Veterinary
Ireland. I think they have been very vocal about their concerns about pig farming, and rightly so.

The allegation that the vets are somehow in cahoots with the farmers of Ireland is at best puerile tbh

"Veterinary Ireland isn't in the habit of criticising farmers,"

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

3. Go and have a lie-down will you? You're all over the place. You're replying to everyone quicker than, it seems, you can even read these posts.

I could write the exact same comment about the multitude of rambling and non factual presumptions you've repeated in the thread. But I wont. There's no need - it's already evident. Thanks.

gozunda

gozunda wrote: »

You conflated a single paper on pig tail lesions and lung health with a universal risk to human health. That is not only disigenius but makes for a very poor support to your personal dislike of pork etc

Lay off the vino.

Then maybe read that paper. Or don't, whatever.

gozunda

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Lay off the vino.

Then maybe read that paper. Or don't, whatever.

Hate to disappoint but no vino or anything else. My apologies for pointing out the obvious - but there you go.

EmmetSpiceland

gozunda wrote: »

Nope - dont think so lol. The issue is - there is a choice. And people can support good standards of welfare - it's not that difficult. But yeah as I commented to your posts previously ...

You then accused others of having shares in the industry et as if all criticism of your overhyped hyperbole was somehow rooted in financial interest. :rolleyes: And nope I have no financial or other interest in pig farming. I do however support those who chose better welfare standards. But you know that already.

Settle down, Beavis.

We’re talking about cheap packet ham here, not some sort of “waygu” style of pig rearing.

You can’t possibly defend the standard of pork in the packets of Denny, Brady’s, or whatever shillelagh name Lidl or Aldi give their stuff.

For someone who claims to have no “skin in the game” you seem to be getting incredibly “butthurt” over it.

Muahahaha

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

in Irish pigs than elsewhere in Europe) and animal health and cruelty: especially things like routine illegal tail-cauterization and tooth clipping (without anaesthetic).

Whats the purpose of cutting their tails and pulling their teeth? And who does this, a vet?

Not that pig-farmers care much about vets anyway. There is 1 vet serving the pig industry for every 50,000 sows in this country. It isn't farming as we know it, it's factory production.

Is the one vet for 50,000 figure true? Like how long would it take a vet to check and do tests on 50,000 animals? Seems impossible.

gozunda

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Settle down, Beavis. We’re talking about cheap packet ham here, not some sort of “waygu” style of pig rearing.You can’t possibly defend the standard of pork in the packets of Denny, Brady’s, or whatever shillelagh name Lidl or Aldi give their stuff.For someone who claims to have no “skin in the game” you seem to be getting incredibly “butthurt” over it.

No worries at all buthead . The thing is the hyperbole hereabouts has gone way way further than any criticism of a 'packet' of ham. We are now being cojoined with the mysteries of meat as an evil philosophy. It's so bleeding obvious that the kid in the pram could spot it a mile off. Don't think anyone likes bs tbh. But there you go.

As I clearly stated I and afaik a bunch of others on the thread support free range and/ or organic pig farming. I dont see anyone supporting poor animal welfare tbh. I do see people being critical of some of the more extreme hyperbole being pushed as gospel. And unlike the myopic choice offered - the thing is people dont have to only chose between the really crap products or abstain from unholy eating; they can and do chose better quality produce and support good standards of welfare.

Ps. Thanks for the additional "butthurt" thing - I was right -but hey no bother.

gozunda

[Deleted User] wrote: »

https://www.enriquetomas.com/es/blog/en/glosario/the-iberian-pig/

These pigs mostly have a good life and taste great too.

I once stayed on a great organic pig farm in a neighbouring county not far from Carlow town. He hails his own humanely & does his own butchery. Turns up at likes of Bloom to sell his great produce.

Were they Iberian pigs on the farm you stayed at? Did they get fed arcorns by any chance? That type extensive pig rearing is growing. It needs more people to support it imo.

Yer man Nevan MaGuire atm on RTE tasting Iberian pig in Spain

Muahahaha

Muahahaha wrote: »

Whats the purpose of cutting their tails and pulling their teeth? And who does this, a vet?

No, on the intensive farms, farm hands do it. I don't think even a defender of the intensive pig farms would claim that it's vets who are doing this work.

For this reason, it's also completely laughable, and again, impractical, to suggest that anaesthetic is used.

Tail-cutting is done to prevent other pigs biting tails, and teeth-cutting is done to prevent the piglets damaging a sow's teats.

Is the one vet for 50,000 figure true? Like how long would it take a vet to check and do tests on 50,000 animals? Seems impossible.

That is Veterinary Ireland's figure. There are only a handful of pig vets in the country. It's a tiny speciality. There are probably more exotic specialists than pig specialists.

Vets don't routinely treat individual pigs on these farms,at least not in the way that they do treat individual cattle or other domesticated large animals. They treat animals at the herd level. Tommy the pigman with 5,000 pigs on his farm isn't going to call the vet because one piglet has a hernia. It just doesn't happen, at least not on the massive industrial farms

OldMrBrennan83

_Brian wrote: »

Problem in ireland is resentment that a local artisan producer charging 10-20% more for a better product, but joe bloggs doesnt want to see him get his "premium price" so wanders into tesco and buys the cheapest alternative that can be got, it reaembles the artisan product in name alone but joe bloggs is happy because its really, really cheap and still called ham.


I'd say 70-80% of the population have no food culture at all, theyre just soulless eating machines being fed by large corporations who are making a killing on them, they consume ultra processed muck because its cheap and they have plent of money left over for beer and cigs.


There is a wealth of good food produced on irish farms and small irish processors, while it costs a bit more the product is well worth it.. free range eggs for exapmple contain twice the omega three and four times the vitamens that battery eggs do. Similarly pasture fed beef is far more nutrisious than housed beef which factories and large processors want.


We are what we eat, go out and find good suppliers, yes the food will cost more but it is better for you, better for the environment and better for the farmed animals..
Buying locally keeps money locally and supports local families and shops, shop in Tesco and your € goes straight to the UK, look at their crappy contracts, the workers would be far better in local shops if people would support them.
Recent tests of non Irish honey showed that something like 70% were buffered up with syrups, corn syrup etc as its cheap and readily available..

Uses the word muck - check
"Everyone who doesn't think like me is an alcoholic on 20 Benson a day" - check
Uses the word swill - ah, so close to the pompous hat-trick.

_Brian

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

Uses the word muck - check
"Everyone who doesn't think like me is an alcoholic on 20 Benson a day" - check
Uses the word swill - ah, so close to the pompous hat-trick.

Do they still sell Bensons ??
I’d pictured them with a pack of dodgy imported baccky making thin rollies

But yes perhaps I was a bit ott there. But the sentiment stands, we’ve lost our food culture and too many accept poor food which is damaging their and their families health.

Zubeneschamali

_Brian wrote: »

we’ve lost our food culture

Ah yes, salty bacon, potatoes, and cabbage all boiled to mush. Good old Irish food culture. Vitamin C as often as once a year when you'd buy a box of oranges for Christmas.

_Brian

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Ah yes, salty bacon, potatoes, and cabbage all boiled to mush. Good old Irish food culture. Vitamin C as often as once a year when you'd buy a box of oranges for Christmas.

Doesn’t have to be about famine era foods. I talking about an interest in good foods.

There is no interest in cooking good meals from raw ingredients, there is far too much reliance on pre prepared highly processed foods.

It’s abkut buying power too, being interested enough to choose free range eggs rather than the cheaper battery eggs, Irish beef over the cheapest beef, lifting meat and checking the label to ensure its Irish origin rather than imported. Irish produced rape seed oil over imported olive oil.

Zubeneschamali

_Brian wrote: »

Doesn’t have to be about famine era foods

I'm talking about 1970, not the famine.

Muahahaha

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

No, on the intensive farms, farm hands do it. I don't think even a defender of the intensive pig farms would claim that it's vets who are doing this work.

For this reason, it's also completely laughable, and again, impractical, to suggest that anaesthetic is used.

Tail-cutting is done to prevent other pigs biting tails, and teeth-cutting is done to prevent the piglets damaging a sow's teats.

That is Veterinary Ireland's figure. There are only a handful of pig vets in the country. It's a tiny speciality. There are probably more exotic specialists than pig specialists.

Vets don't routinely treat individual pigs on these farms,at least not in the way that they do treat individual cattle or other domesticated large animals. They treat animals at the herd level. Tommy the pigman with 5,000 pigs on his farm isn't going to call the vet because one piglet has a hernia. It just doesn't happen, at least not on the massive industrial farms

Know next to nothing about infections/diseases in pigs but why is it the case that cattle are checked individually but pigs are not? Like is there a genuine reason the Dept of Agriculture does it this way? And does doing it this way sometimes mean that an entire herd get infected and have to be culled and taken out of the food chain? Is it because culling an entire herd works out cheaper than inspecting individual pigs to prevent it in the first place?

lalababa

Abattoirs: there are c.60,000 pigs killed per WEEK in Ireland. With Rosderra killing 30k+ in two facilities. Staunton and Dawn pork are the other big players.

lalababa

C. 250,000 tonnes pork exports p.a. with a value of 700 million.

_Brian

Muahahaha wrote: »

Know next to nothing about infections/diseases in pigs but why is it the case that cattle are checked individually but pigs are not? Like is there a genuine reason the Dept of Agriculture does it this way? And does doing it this way sometimes mean that an entire herd get infected and have to be culled and taken out of the food chain? Is it because culling an entire herd works out cheaper than inspecting individual pigs to prevent it in the first place?

Cattle are checked individually for TB as it’s a problem. Isn’t an issue in pigs that I know of.

Otherwise cattle are treated at a herd level for parasites etc.

Muahahaha

Muahahaha wrote: »

Know next to nothing about infections/diseases in pigs but why is it the case that cattle are checked individually but pigs are not? Like is there a genuine reason the Dept of Agriculture does it this way? And does doing it this way sometimes mean that an entire herd get infected and have to be culled and taken out of the food chain? Is it because culling an entire herd works out cheaper than inspecting individual pigs to prevent it in the first place?

Re: TB: I assume the reason nobody is very worried about swine TB is because of the factory-farming method: pigs on these farms live indoors 24/7 and there is usually a decent level of infection control in place which impedes some types of disease, including TB, from entering or leaving.

Salmonella is common though. Apparently Ireland has some of the most prevalent incidence of salmonella infection in the European pig herd.

That's why my relative was so concerned with the practices observed in the laboratory of an Irish abbatoir: salmonella samples being mis-labeled, or not labeled at all. As this isn't a routine veterinary/ Department of Ag function, and is undertaken by the abbatoir itself, it's pretty much out of the vets' hands. They're not hired to supervise the labs, except maybe occasional visits. How occasional, I don't know.

Why isn't this tackled? I don't know. I can only speculate that it's not in the farmers' or abbatoirs' interests. They are a tiny, but economically fairly powerful group who pretty much run their own affairs.