How long before Irish reunification?

RobMc59

10-15 years

Berserker wrote: »

Please elaborate. What social benefits would it bring and how are they going to help people with their daily lives?



The people in the RoI have been asked to invest in a few things over the last few years and they haven't warmed to the idea.



It's perfect for a political party manifesto for sure. The RoI is booming at the moment, if we look at the state coffers and a UI is financially unobtainable at this time. Taking these two factors into account, it's very hard to imagine when it would be viable. The RoI has a few generations worth of debt to pay off before it could every consider a UI.

I agree and I don't think the US would help unless there was something in it for them,despite the so called 'special relationship 'between the UK and US Britain had to pay or concede strategic territory for help during both world wars.

RobMc59

10-15 years

irish_goat wrote: »

The north is a basket case because London doesn't care about it. The cost of keeping it running will drastically decrease after reunification as we'll become a normal, functioning economy. On top of that, the UK will still continue to subsidise here as it's in their longterm financial interest to be rid of us and the EU will throw plenty of money our way, particularly in the context of Brexit.

That would be good for all concerned but do you think differences could be overcome-especially in your neck of the woods?

James Brown

10-15 years

Greyfox wrote: »

It will matter if people think there just voting for a romantic feeling. What do Irish people actually gain from a UI other then a romantic feeling?

What romantic feeling are you thinking of?
For me it's not romanticism. The set up was wrong and is a blight on the country. It's wrong in that we left our fellow countrymen and women go and IMO an embarrassment to even discuss being against unification. It's a hangover from the Empire.
Could you imagine if Texas and part or Arizona were ruled by the UK or Cornwall and part of Devon ruled by France?

Greyfox

Matt Barrett wrote: »

What romantic feeling are you thinking of?
For me it's not romanticism. The set up was wrong and is a blight on the country. It's wrong in that we left our fellow countrymen and women go and IMO an embarrassment to even discuss being against unification.

How is it a blight on the country? Is there people becoming ill due to it as I havent seen anyone with any symtoms? We had to in order to make peace but that's all history now, I'm proud to be against a UI as I don't live in the past. My country has 26 counties and N. Ireland is a lovely country that has 6 counties but N Ire is not my country

James Brown

10-15 years

Greyfox wrote: »

How is it a blight on the country? Is there people becoming ill due to it as I havent seen anyone with any symtoms? We had to in order to make peace but that's all history now, I'm proud to be against a UI as I don't live in the past. My country has 26 counties and N. Ireland is a lovely country that has 6 counties but N Ire is not my country

In that the country is divided by it. It's called Northern Ireland y'know.
It's not a country
You are welcome to your view of course. None of the above addresses your 'romantic feeling' shyte.

Greyfox

Matt Barrett wrote: »

In that the country is divided by it. It's called Northern Ireland y'know.
It's not a country
You are welcome to your view of course. None of the above addresses your 'romantic feeling' shyte.

Ok so instead of a romantic feeling it's a magical blight that effects nobody and a UI is about getting rid if this magical blight. The border is there since before we were born due to an agreement made almost 100 years ago, if we're going to remove the border there needs to be a good reason to remove it

James Brown

10-15 years

Greyfox wrote: »

Ok so instead of a romantic feeling it's a magical blight that effects nobody and a UI is about getting rid if this magical blight. The border is there since before we were born due to an agreement made almost 100 years ago, if we're going to remove the border there needs to be a good reason to remove it

You said 'romantic feeling'. I gave other reasons.
The partition is real not magical.
I've a few; it divides Ireland. It wasn't voted on by the public. They gerrymandered the district lines to queer the 'democratic' vote.
Ulster is an Irish Province partially under U.K. rule.
Look, you've no interest in a UI, fair enough but it only being for 'romantic' ideals is just crap British apologists and west brits alike use to dismiss it. You could say the same for the Unionists only having a romantic link to the U.K.

Greyfox

Matt Barrett wrote: »

You said 'romantic feeling'. I gave other reasons.
The partition is real not magical.
I've a few; it divides Ireland. It wasn't voted on by the public. They gerrymandered the district lines to queer the 'democratic' vote.
Ulster is an Irish Province partially under U.K. rule.
Look, you've no interest in a UI, fair enough but it only being for 'romantic' ideals is just crap British apologists and west brits alike use to dismiss it. You could say the same for the Unionists only having a romantic link to the U.K.

The partition is a border, a border the majority of people wanted and a majority still want to keep the border. The romantic ideal is accurate as that's all supporters of a UI have, they never come up with a sensible reason for a UI. e.g if you wanted N Ire to use euros now that would actually be a logical reason for someone in the republic wanting a UI.

_Kaiser_

Matt Barrett wrote: »

You said 'romantic feeling'. I gave other reasons.
The partition is real not magical.
I've a few; it divides Ireland. It wasn't voted on by the public. They gerrymandered the district lines to queer the 'democratic' vote.
Ulster is an Irish Province partially under U.K. rule.
Look, you've no interest in a UI, fair enough but it only being for 'romantic' ideals is just crap British apologists and west brits alike use to dismiss it. You could say the same for the Unionists only having a romantic link to the U.K.

See, this is part of the problem. Not everyone who thinks a UI is a bad idea is an "apologist" or "West Brit" - time to leave the past where it belongs.

Here and now in 2019, NI requires massive subvention which we in ROI haven't a hope of covering considering we can't even deal with the many core issues we have.

I agree with others, I have yet to hear what real benefits a UI would offer us in ROI to justify the cost, security, and societal differences.
Similarly, beyond getting to stay in the EU and a new sugardaddy, what else does NI get from it? Are they going to be happy with the HSE rather than the NHS do you think? How about paying a lot more for cars and insurance/tax and pretty much everything else too? How about increased tensions because the die-hards don't want to accept it?

Beyond the romantic nationalist notion, I don't see why either side would really want it if they thought about it properly.

James Brown

10-15 years

Greyfox wrote: »

The partition is a border, a border the majority of people wanted and a majority still want to keep the border. The romantic ideal is accurate as that's all supporters of a UI have, they never come up with a sensible reason for a UI. e.g if you wanted N Ire to use euros now that would actually be a logical reason for someone in the republic wanting a UI.

Was there a vote? I missed that.

It's part of the Island of Ireland. It's part of the Irish province of Ulster. It was taken, not by public mandate.

James Brown

10-15 years

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

See, this is part of the problem. Not everyone who thinks a UI is a bad idea is an "apologist" or "West Brit" - time to leave the past where it belongs.

Here and now in 2019, NI requires massive subvention which we in ROI haven't a hope of covering considering we can't even deal with the many core issues we have.

I agree with others, I have yet to hear what real benefits a UI would offer us in ROI to justify the cost, security, and societal differences.
Similarly, beyond getting to stay in the EU and a new sugardaddy, what else does NI get from it? Are they going to be happy with the HSE rather than the NHS do you think? How about paying a lot more for cars and insurance/tax and pretty much everything else too? How about increased tensions because the die-hards don't want to accept it?

Beyond the romantic nationalist notion, I don't see why either side would really want it if they thought about it properly.

See, to me it does though. If you don't want a UI for any number of reasons that's fine and dandy. However if you say romantic ideals are the only reason anyone wants a UI you are either not very informed or being purposefully dismissive.
We could save a few bob selling off Cork to the Yanks, do you think anyone disagreeing would be being a romantic langer?

careless sherpa

With the very real threat of the resumption of fracking in Belcoo on the cavan/fermanagh border, the proposed storage of nuclear waste in south armagh and the chaos a no deal Brexit would bring in terms of agriculture and the proliferation of poor quality products the issue of having control over the entire island is now more vital than ever. Dismissing it as a romantic ideal doesn't take any of those factors into consideration. Once the environment has been altered irrevocably we will be in a bit of trouble. Taking the issue of fracking, the source of the Shannon is pretty close to the area which will be the centre of the practice.

Greyfox

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Was there a vote? I missed that.

It's part of the Island of Ireland. It's part of the Irish province of Ulster. It was taken, not by public mandate.

Matt Barrett wrote: »

See, to me it does though. If you don't want a UI for any number of reasons that's fine and dandy. However if you say romantic ideals are the only reason anyone wants a UI you are either not very informed or being purposefully dismissive.

The people in power in 1921/22 at the time voted for it, at the time its was the best we could of hoped for. How would a UI make your life better? What are the actual benifits of a UI?

_blaaz

10-15 years

Id vote yes to it anyway....if the north want to join up with us....im.not going to stop them anyway

FrancieBrady

Greyfox wrote: »

What are the actual benifits of a UI?

Can you not work that out yourself? There has been cyclical problems on this island ever since partition (which was only envisioned as temporary).
Just because partitionists in the south have divorced a whole section of Irish people and now try to portray then as 'other' does not mean that is the case.

Not withstanding the benefits of building a cohesive island where there are no separations in agriculture, tourism, industry etc, a UI would give a huge section of people a sense of belonging and empowerment in their own futures.
A large part of northern Ireland's problems stem from that lack of empowerment and a say.
There would I believe be a massive benefit for us all as one island. I also happen to think that the moderate unionist would have a lot to offer too and I get a sense that they are beginning to see that their future holds a UI in it and it is better to negotiate that future than be forced into it. Peter Robinson:

“I don’t believe Northern Ireland will want to leave the United Kingdom, but if it does happen we would be in a terrible fix because we would be in the same situation as leaving the EU where nothing was negotiated or decided about what was going to happen after.”

Mr Robinson said he believed the unionist community in general would also accept the results of a border poll on unification but would want some “protections”, as the Nationalist community currently enjoys in the North.

facehugger99

20-30 years

facehugger99 wrote: »

Meh.

We know it will cost several billions per annum - that's enough to scupper the idea for the vast majority of the Republic's voters.

Seriously, how do you "know" this? There's a great deal of assumptions that the *current* British subsidy of £11 billion will continue. With the English facing a very bleak economic future, they will not have the money to prop up this last small remnant of their Irish colony.

As Brexit shows very, very clearly, the English will suit themselves and Unionists in NI must like it or lump it. Politically, the English will need all the money they can get to shore up English areas and there's no way they could now get away with that enormous £11 billion handout to what Harold Wilson famously described as "spongers".

By the time reunification happens, it is far more probable that the Unionists will be long over the days of an £11 billion handout so there will be much less, if anything, for the Irish/EU/US to replace. A far more substantial issue than alleged financial costs is what to do with the mass of undereducated loyalist dregs of Ballymoney, Larne & Portadown. The French brought
800,000 of their self-declared "French" Pied-Noir settlers back to France in the 1960s so perhaps there's a precedent for the 100,000 or so hardliners. It seems like Johnny Adair and other loyalists already set that trend 10-15 years ago when they moved permanently to Britain.

Anybody who believes the rightwing English Tories/Brexiteers will not put an English Brexit ahead of Ulster Unionists' desire to remain in the UK needs to listen to this:

https://mobile.twitter.com/bbcspotlightni/status/1113199323838390272

RobMc59

10-15 years

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Seriously, how do you "know" this? There's a great deal of assumptions that the *current* British subsidy of £11 billion will continue. With the English facing a very bleak economic future, they will not have the money to prop up this last small remnant of their Irish colony.

As Brexit shows very, very clearly, the English will suit themselves and Unionists in NI must like it or lump it. Politically, the English will need all the money they can get to shore up English areas and there's no way they could now get away with that enormous £11 billion handout to what Harold Wilson famously described as "spongers".

By the time reunification happens, it is far more probable that the Unionists will be long over the days of an £11 billion handout so there will be much less, if anything, for the Irish/EU/US to replace. A far more substantial issue than alleged financial costs is what to do with the mass of undereducated loyalist dregs of Ballymoney, Larne & Portadown. The French brought
800,000 of their self-declared "French" Pied-Noir settlers back to France in the 1960s so perhaps there's a precedent for the 100,000 or so hardliners. It seems like Johnny Adair and other loyalists already set that trend 10-15 years ago when they moved permanently to Britain.

Anybody who believes the rightwing English Tories/Brexiteers will not put an English Brexit ahead of Ulster Unionists' desire to remain in the UK needs to listen to this:

https://mobile.twitter.com/bbcspotlightni/status/1113199323838390272

So you're proposing ethnic cleansing?

simongurnick

Greyfox wrote: »

The people in power in 1921/22 at the time voted for it, at the time its was the best we could of hoped for. How would a UI make your life better? What are the actual benifits of a UI?

Let's be clear here
The creation of northern ireland was due to gerrymandering political boundaries to appease the unionist voice. The brits had just negotiated the versailles treaty. It was men against boys in that sense. The fallout resulted in the irish civil war which was more vicious than any rebellion .

RobMc59

20-30 years

RobMc59 wrote: »

So you're proposing ethnic cleansing?

Yes, this could indeed be called "ethnic cleansing", if you don't know what ethnic cleansing is.

As far as I'm aware of the North's demography the "100,000 or so hardliners" do not constitute the "ethnicity" of Unionism. It will be an absolute fact that loyalists will leave - the question is how many and what type - just as in every decolonisation process in history people who are unwilling to accept the new state leave with the colonial power.

The issue will be to ensure insofar as possible it's the dregs rather than the people who can contribute. The latter from the unionist community have, for many decades now, been leaving the North in huge numbers to go to college in Britain and not returning so they seem to be, to use your misapplied early 1990s nomenclature, "ethnically cleansing" themselves.

facehugger99

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes, this could indeed be called "ethnic cleansing", if you don't know what ethnic cleansing is.

As far as I'm aware of the North's demography the "100,000 or so hardliners" do not constitute the "ethnicity" of Unionism. It will be an absolute fact that loyalists will leave - the question is how many and what type - just as in every decolonisation process in history people who are unwilling to accept the new state leave with the colonial power.

The issue will be to ensure insofar as possible it's the dregs rather than the people who can contribute. The latter from the unionist community have, for many decades now, been leaving the North in huge numbers to go to college in Britain and not returning so they seem to be, to use your misapplied early 1990s nomenclature, "ethnically cleansing" themselves.

Hilarious stuff - keep going this is too funny.

facehugger99

20-30 years

facehugger99 wrote: »

Hilarious stuff - keep going this is too funny.

Another profound contribution, facehugger99. Well done.

ohnonotgmail

why is there no option for "The rest of Ireland says No, it will never happen"

ohnonotgmail

20-30 years

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

why is there no option for "The rest of Ireland says No, it will never happen"

I was going to put that in but I figured it would annoy ohnonotgmail more if I didn't.

Berserker

Deleted User wrote: »

By the time reunification happens, it is far more probable that the Unionists will be long over the days of an £11 billion handout so there will be much less, if anything

Firstly, it takes £26bn to run NI, not £11bn. Secondly, if NI is to reduce the handout it receives, it will need to experience economic growth in it's private sector. That will mean that Brexit will be a success for NI. I was under the impression that Brexit is going to cripple the UK.

Deleted User wrote: »

Anybody who believes the rightwing English Tories/Brexiteers will not put an English Brexit ahead of Ulster Unionists' desire to remain in the UK needs to listen to this:

People in the RoI and NI, who are not blinded by nationalism, will vote with their heads and put their own well being first.

branie2

10-15 years

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

why is there no option for "The rest of Ireland says No, it will never happen"

The rest of Ireland being Loyalists in the North?

ohnonotgmail

branie2 wrote: »

The rest of Ireland being Loyalists in the North?

the rest of ireland being those of us outside northern ireland.

markodaly

Matt Barrett wrote: »

A united Ireland chief.

Tax payer will be rode either way. Telling the taxpayer a UI will be costly will mean little IMO.

As I said, when all else fails, we fall back to primitive nationalism.

Berserker

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Tax payer will be rode either way. Telling the taxpayer a UI will be costly will mean little IMO.

Really, so when the true cost comes to the fore, people will accept it? If the government said we need to increase income taxes by 12%, widen our tax base to include low paid workers and reduce social welfare to align it with the current rates in NI, you think people will be fine with that?

Matt Barrett

Matt Barrett wrote: »

What romantic feeling are you thinking of?
For me it's not romanticism. The set up was wrong and is a blight on the country. It's wrong in that we left our fellow countrymen and women go and IMO an embarrassment to even discuss being against unification. It's a hangover from the Empire.
Could you imagine if Texas and part or Arizona were ruled by the UK or Cornwall and part of Devon ruled by France?

You: it's nothing romantic

Also you: listing romantic reasoning

Dammo

Ulster Says No. It will never happen

Berserker wrote: »

Really, so when the true cost comes to the fore, people will accept it? If the government said we need to increase income taxes by 12%, widen our tax base to include low paid workers and reduce social welfare to align it with the current rates in NI, you think people will be fine with that?

That’d be Sinn Féin’s core demographic out for a start