Saracens vs Munster, Sat 20th April, 3pm

CatFromHue

that's gas

there's two i've just looked at the maul and the collapsed scrum.

the collapsed scrum was a call from the touch judge and you can see the munster guy going down first in the scrum

the maul is probably technically the right call too as he is technically held up for a short amount of time. it was a quick call all right

digzy

sliabh 1956 wrote: »

After watching Leinster to day I am much more concerned about how far Munster have fallen behind them in nearly every facet of the game rather than worrying about the Ref. Billy V. and Farrell to me posters are avoiding the really important
question are Munster rugby at a point where it is no longer competitive at the business end of Europe and Pro 14 after this weekend I think there is cause for concern.

N that’s the crux!
All this bullsh1t re billy v and the idiot fan are irrelevant.

Not only were we well off sarries but we were second best by some distance in the qf

We’re a mile off Leinster being honest
I’d struggle to name more than 3 of our players that’d get into the Leinster side. Don’t wanna name players but we’ve a lack of creativity that’s killing us when plan a doesn’t work.

O Mahoney said in the build up that he was sick of learning lessons from defeat. We all know what’s needed but won’t happen.

Dubinusa

I think Munster have a very good and deep squad.
It's hard to know what the answer is to get over the hex of losing semi finals.
The gameplan itself, is like Ireland's. It's very predictable and the good sides can defend it.
I think that is something to look at.
A variety of attacking rugby is definitely needed.
anyway to keep the opposition guessing and honest.
The more I watch the province's.the more I think that Munster are standing still. Nothing has really changed.
The squad additions are really good, Beirne, Farrell etc. But, it's the same groundhog day over and over.
A large part of the problem is Jones. I think he's in over his head.
I reckon that Munster should pull the plug on him and go in a different direction.
Obviously, Munster have a great shot at the pro 14 title, but without a change of playing style, I think they'll come up short.

Richie_Rich89

Dubinusa wrote: »

I think Munster have a very good and deep squad.
It's hard to know what the answer is to get over the hex of losing semi finals.
The gameplan itself, is like Ireland's. It's very predictable and the good sides can defend it.
I think that is something to look at.
A variety of attacking rugby is definitely needed.
anyway to keep the opposition guessing and honest.
The more I watch the province's.the more I think that Munster are standing still. Nothing has really changed.
The squad additions are really good, Beirne, Farrell etc. But, it's the same groundhog day over and over.
A large part of the problem is Jones. I think he's in over his head.
I reckon that Munster should pull the plug on him and go in a different direction.
Obviously, Munster have a great shot at the pro 14 title, but without a change of playing style, I think they'll come up short.

I think in some ways Jones has to fit in with van Graan's overarching philosophy, so any issues with the attack can't solely be laid at his feet. But yeah, it'd be interesting to see how they'd go with someone different, like Andre Bell or O'Gara, as attack/backs coach.

twinytwo

TCM wrote: »

Congratulations to Saracens great performance yesterday. Vunipola was majestic and deservedly won MoTM performance. What a man. It's a pity that only 16000 pepple turned up to see a "European cup" semi-final.

Well sarries have no fans.

Also after the qf. You couldnt get to coventry for less that 500 euro per person. Unless you took the ferry and drive

Interested Observer

twinytwo wrote: »

Well sarries have no fans.

Also after the qf. You couldnt get to coventry for less that 500 euro per person. Unless you took the ferry and drive

While I wouldn't blame away fans at all for the attendance, I'm pretty sure this wouldn't be the case.

Moving it to Coventry was a bizarre choice, as you say Saracens have limited support so moving it miles away from where they're based obviously isn't going to help.

If the Leinster game is anything to go by then ticket prices were probably too high as well. It's embarrassing for the competition.

AbusesToilets

CatFromHue wrote: »

that's gas

there's two i've just looked at the maul and the collapsed scrum.

the collapsed scrum was a call from the touch judge and you can see the munster guy going down first in the scrum

the maul is probably technically the right call too as he is technically held up for a short amount of time. it was a quick call all right

The maul call I thought was very quick , this season refs have been notably slower in calling mauls formed in open play. Reference the penalty Leinster gave away yesterday, Toner and Tracey held up the Toulouse player for a good bit longer than Farrell was there.

The non call for the tackle in the air was a bit of shocker too, plain as day.

stephen_n

AbusesToilets wrote: »

The maul call I thought was very quick , this season refs have been notably slower in calling mauls formed in open play. Reference the penalty Leinster gave away yesterday, Toner and Tracey held up the Toulouse player for a good bit longer than Farrell was there.

The non call for the tackle in the air was a bit of shocker too, plain as day.

If you’re referring to Williams one, that was about as marginal as it gets. By the letter of the law his foot had made contact with the ground. That was more luck than anything though. Williams was hitting him wether he was down or not but it was still the correct call.

The Lost Sheep

Dubinusa wrote: »

I think Munster have a very good and deep squad.
It's hard to know what the answer is to get over the hex of losing semi finals.
The gameplan itself, is like Ireland's. It's very predictable and the good sides can defend it.
I think that is something to look at.
A variety of attacking rugby is definitely needed.
anyway to keep the opposition guessing and honest.
The more I watch the province's.the more I think that Munster are standing still. Nothing has really changed.
The squad additions are really good, Beirne, Farrell etc. But, it's the same groundhog day over and over.
A large part of the problem is Jones. I think he's in over his head.
I reckon that Munster should pull the plug on him and go in a different direction.
Obviously, Munster have a great shot at the pro 14 title, but without a change of playing style, I think they'll come up short.

Munster dont really have a very good squad in terms of challenging for the very top level as they havent made it past semi finals in years bar 2 cases and in those 2 pro14 finals they were easily defeated.
The game plan isnt like Ireland's at all no matter point you're saying. Cant compare them.

stephen_n

People can say what they like about the lack of creativity. Munster got beaten up badly up front on Saturday. As they do every time they get to this stage. It’s damn near impossible to be creative going backwards. Despite improvements Munster just don’t have a pack that can dominate teams at this level. Racing do, Leinster do and Saracens certainly do.

Burkie1203

stephen_n wrote: »

People can say what they like about the lack of creativity. Munster got beaten up badly up front on Saturday. As they do every time they get to this stage. It’s damn near impossible to be creative going backwards. Despite improvements Munster just don’t have a pack that can dominate teams at this level. Racing do, Leinster do and Saracens certainly do.

Your pack can be creative too. Look at Lowe try yesterday. Pack running at angles, at soft shoulders, getting around corner CREATING space out wide, for forwards and backs to bring good handling skills to the fore to put Lowe away.

Healy Henshaw Conan SOB Ringrose Fardy Furlong Cronin Luke all had a huge role in that try.


Bring creative isn't just about the backline running fancy moves.

AbusesToilets

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Your pack can be creative too. Look at Lowe try yesterday. Pack running at angles, at soft shoulders, getting around corner CREATING space out wide, for forwards and backs to bring good handling skills to the fore to put Lowe away.

Healy Henshaw Conan SOB Ringrose Fardy Furlong Cronin Luke all had a huge role in that try.


Bring creative isn't just about the backline running fancy moves.

Munster don't have the players to do that. Rassie wanted them to move in that direction and they couldn't. They need players coming in who have been brought up with the mindset to play ball, and who are then coached to develop that.

Leinster have that at all levels, from schools, thru the Academy and into the club.

Dubinusa

Who can they add? The pack is fairly stacked.
It might be an ingrained philosophy?
It's frustrating to get to this point and come up short.
I think that the system must change! Munsters style is not getting them to the final.
I don't think it's a talent shortage or that Munster have inferior players. It might be that Saracens have superior coaching.
The reality is Munsters squad has improved and the results haven't.
I don't have any answers and I am speculating.
I think most on here would agree that Munster are predictable and don't have the systems to change up when they encounter a team like Saracens.

Bridge93

Munster most definitely have inferior players to Saracens. They’re squad is brilliant. It’s a little of one and a bit of the other as is always the case. Of course coaching needs to improve but Munster could have the worlds best coach and still lose to Saracens. It’s half the England team against a handful of Irish starters

Richie_Rich89

Bridge93 wrote: »

Munster most definitely have inferior players to Saracens. They’re squad is brilliant. It’s a little of one and a bit of the other as is always the case. Of course coaching needs to improve but Munster could have the worlds best coach and still lose to Saracens. It’s half the England team against a handful of Irish starters

Saracens away is pretty much as tough as it gets (or has ever got) in Europe. I thought this was more the type of performance you can build on rather than being the deflating type of loss we've seen in recent years to Glasgow, Scarlets and Saracens in semis and finals.

Loughman and Oliver are two forwards with handling ability they could focus on bringing through as starters so there's a bit more variety in attack.

Burkie1203

Dubinusa wrote: »

Who can they add? The pack is fairly stacked.
It might be an ingrained philosophy?
It's frustrating to get to this point and come up short.
I think that the system must change! Munsters style is not getting them to the final.
I don't think it's a talent shortage or that Munster have inferior players. It might be that Saracens have superior coaching.
The reality is Munsters squad has improved and the results haven't.
I don't have any answers and I am speculating.
I think most on here would agree that Munster are predictable and don't have the systems to change up when they encounter a team like Saracens.

It's a bit of both. The Lack of ball carriers up front is a major issue which won't change without recruiting 2 or 3 players.

Stander and Kilcoyne carried for 36m off 23 carries combined. The rest of the starting pack carried for 40m off 31 carries combined. When you have so few threats with ball in hand you end up either having to kick the ball away or else shovel the ball wide leaving your backs exposed.

Richie_Rich89

Burkie1203 wrote: »

It's a bit of both. The Lack of ball carriers up front is a major issue which won't change without recruiting 2 or 3 players.

Stander and Kilcoyne carried for 36m off 23 carries combined. The rest of the starting pack carried for 40m off 31 carries combined. When you have so few threats with ball in hand you end up either having to kick the ball away or else shovel the ball wide leaving your backs exposed.

You can be an effective carrier if you keep the defender guessing as to what you're going to do up until the last second. That's what NZ players do. Tacklers can't commit full force to the tackle because of the technical ability of the ball carrier. There's the danger that they could step or pass if the tackler sets his weight. If you run straight into people, like Stander and Kilcoyne often do, then you have to be a lot more dynamic and powerful to get the same returns.

shootermacg

Burkie1203 wrote: »

It's a bit of both. The Lack of ball carriers up front is a major issue which won't change without recruiting 2 or 3 players.

Stander and Kilcoyne carried for 36m off 23 carries combined. The rest of the starting pack carried for 40m off 31 carries combined. When you have so few threats with ball in hand you end up either having to kick the ball away or else shovel the ball wide leaving your backs exposed.

I don't buy that at all, Beirne is a good ball carrier as is Kleyn, Scannell, Farrell, JoD all capable of trucking it up.

The problem is with the distribution / coaching. Everyone knows Munster will truck it up the 10/12 channel of a ruck/lineout. Sarries sent shooters up in that channel like they did against us last time.

There was space outside, but we didn't use it, it would have taken fast hands at 10/12/13 but the space was there. We were predictable and didn't change much even when it was obvious what Sarries were doing.

Burkie1203

shootermacg wrote: »

I don't buy that at all, Beirne is a good ball carrier as is Kleyn, Scannell, Farrell, JoD all capable of trucking it up.

The problem is with the distribution / coaching. Everyone knows Munster will truck it up the 10/12 channel of a ruck/lineout. Sarries sent shooters up in that channel like they did against us last time.

There was space outside, but we didn't use it, it would have taken fast hands at 10/12/13 but the space was there. We were predictable and didn't change much even when it was obvious what Sarries were doing.

Kleyn Beirne POM JOD had 21 carries for 17m v Embra

The same 4 players had 21 carries for 34m v Sarries and 15-20 of those meters came off one Kleyn carry in open play off a dropped ball.

That's simply not good enough. And it's a pattern in top level games

In December v Leinster
Kleyn Beirne Wycherley and Cloete produced 16 carries for 8m

If Stander gets shut down or is not producing quick ball Munster struggle badly.

troyzer

Munster need three things:

1) Get rid of Felix Jones. Replace him with someone like ROG who has experience with training up his forwards to be skillful. It's 2019, it's simply not acceptable anymore to have meaty forwards who can't pass the ball unless they can make up for it elsewhere in their game. Players like Furlong are redefining what it means to be a tighthead, you can't simply rock up and not embarrass yourself in the scrum and hope that's enough anymore if you're tighthead. The general skill level of the Munster forwards needs an upgrade and that'll require a year or two of dedicated coaching from a southern hemisphere guy who can teach it.

TL;DR: Munster need to accept that old Munster style can't win. They need to evolve their coaching and thinking.

2) In addition to upping the general skill level, by hook or crook, Munster need to find a dynamic forward who is big enough to play but who is also a playmaking threat. Lads on here who know the Munster academy better will tell me if the quality is there. Every forward should be a passing threat but they also need something extra. A forward who can make the hard yards but has 20 elbows like Nakarawa. Or a forward who can step in at first receiver like Furlong or Retallick.

3) They need a world class 12 to link Carbery with the outside backs. Munster have ridiculous talent in their starting XV out wide but Earls and Conway simply don't get the ball enough in big games. The ball either dies with a poor carry from the forwards or it dies in midfield. Farrell is a great player and can truck the ball, but Munster still haven't found the playmaking solution at 12 that's required. In a full strength XV, Carbery is pretty much the only player who has any distribution skills and that just isn't enough.

Shefwedfan

Dubinusa wrote: »

I think Munster have a very good and deep squad.
It's hard to know what the answer is to get over the hex of losing semi finals.
The gameplan itself, is like Ireland's. It's very predictable and the good sides can defend it.
I think that is something to look at.
A variety of attacking rugby is definitely needed.
anyway to keep the opposition guessing and honest.
The more I watch the province's.the more I think that Munster are standing still. Nothing has really changed.
The squad additions are really good, Beirne, Farrell etc. But, it's the same groundhog day over and over.
A large part of the problem is Jones. I think he's in over his head.
I reckon that Munster should pull the plug on him and go in a different direction.
Obviously, Munster have a great shot at the pro 14 title, but without a change of playing style, I think they'll come up short.

Munster have a deep squad I agree but a very good? For the Pro14 yes but for Europe they don’t.

Outside the starting 15 they struggle but continue to resign player. Blyendaal was shown up years ago as not good enough but Is kept. All the talk last week was about he will be s great coach, brill so sign him when he retires as a coach. JJ is more than plenty to cover 10 plus young player

They have a huge squad of average players, most of which can’t improve because they are stacked so deep.

Making the same mistakes every season and nobody has actually figured it out...

Shefwedfan

troyzer wrote: »

Munster need three things:

1) Get rid of Felix Jones. Replace him with someone like ROG who has experience with training up his forwards to be skillful.

I don’t see why rog would come back as attack coach? Hardly going to add much to his cv....he will take over a bigger role

Jewelers

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I don’t see why rog would come back as attack coach? Hardly going to add much to his cv....he will take over a bigger role

hardly add much to his cv , are you taking the piss ?

Shefwedfan

Jewelers wrote: »

hardly add much to his cv , are you taking the piss ?

No

Why do you think working as attack coach for Munster is a big job?

troyzer

Jewelers wrote: »

hardly add much to his cv , are you taking the piss ?

Well he's right in the sense that ROG is probably ready for
a head coach role. Another few years as the Munster attack coach doesn't advance his career at all and could damage his reputation if it doesn't work out.

Jewelers

Shefwedfan wrote: »

No

Why do you think working as attack coach for Munster is a big job?

so where do you think he will go next so , hes proved himself in France and NZ, be natural for him to go the munster , as bizarre as it might sound to you

F.nelson

twinytwo wrote: »

Well sarries have no fans.

Also after the qf. You couldnt get to coventry for less that 500 euro per person. Unless you took the ferry and drive

You could fly direct shannon/cork/Dublin to Birmingham for less than 100€ last week and it even went down lower over the past two weeks. A few other routes would have got you there fairly cheap too and then bus to Coventry. Hotels were reasonable too.
Dunno why people didnt turn up. Maybe coventry isnt a nice destination for a weekend like edinburgh was and also this weekend is always the start of busy weekends coming up

Interested Observer

Jewelers wrote: »

so where do you think he will go next so , hes proved himself in France and NZ, be natural for him to go the munster , as bizarre as it might sound to you

As an assistant though? He must be eyeing up a head coach job soon enough. If he was going for another assistant job you'd think it would nearly have to be for an international side next.

I always think there's a huge risk of the recently retired player taking a job with his old province. Without speaking ill of him, things weren't especially working out for Foley at Munster, Geordan Murphy will be out of Tigers at the end of this season and who knows what he'll do next. Cullen didn't get off to the best start with Leinster and again if it hadn't turned around his coaching future would seriously be in doubt you'd have to think.

Shefwedfan

Jewelers wrote: »

so where do you think he will go next so , hes proved himself in France and NZ, be natural for him to go the munster , as bizarre as it might sound to you

As an assistant? Not a hope....van grann has signed up and he will only go back as top man from his interviews....

France coaching role with nationsl side or maybe Ireland will bring him in

Could do a stint in England but I would guess now with family all in NZ he will stay and do another few seasons

As I said, do you think a attack coaching job in Munster is big?

The Lost Sheep

troyzer wrote: »

Munster need three things:

1) Get rid of Felix Jones. Replace him with someone like ROG who has experience with training up his forwards to be skillful. It's 2019, it's simply not acceptable anymore to have meaty forwards who can't pass the ball unless they can make up for it elsewhere in their game. Players like Furlong are redefining what it means to be a tighthead, you can't simply rock up and not embarrass yourself in the scrum and hope that's enough anymore if you're tighthead. The general skill level of the Munster forwards needs an upgrade and that'll require a year or two of dedicated coaching from a southern hemisphere guy who can teach it.

It doesnt have to be a southern hemisphere coach. Getting rid of Felix Jones probably should happen but for so many guys coming through they dont have skills from earlier on in their career. Not much FJ can do when its deficiencies earlier on that is causing problems that should have been sorted years earlier.

2) In addition to upping the general skill level, by hook or crook, Munster need to find a dynamic forward who is big enough to play but who is also a playmaking threat. Lads on here who know the Munster academy better will tell me if the quality is there. Every forward should be a passing threat but they also need something extra. A forward who can make the hard yards but has 20 elbows like Nakarawa. Or a forward who can step in at first receiver like Furlong or Retallick.

Upping skill level needs to start far earlier.

3) They need a world class 12 to link Carbery with the outside backs. Munster have ridiculous talent in their starting XV out wide but Earls and Conway simply don't get the ball enough in big games. The ball either dies with a poor carry from the forwards or it dies in midfield. Farrell is a great player and can truck the ball, but Munster still haven't found the playmaking solution at 12 that's required. In a full strength XV, Carbery is pretty much the only player who has any distribution skills and that just isn't enough.

world class signing would be great but Munster are not likely able to get one of them.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I don’t see why rog would come back as attack coach? Hardly going to add much to his cv....he will take over a bigger role

He'll go head coach somewhere soon. But where? Will he look at international level and go as an assistant first?

Jewelers wrote: »

hardly add much to his cv, are you taking the piss?

He wants the head coach role there so i cant see him going in as an assistant first.

Jewelers wrote: »

so where do you think he will go next so , hes proved himself in France and NZ, be natural for him to go the munster,as bizarre as it might sound to you

Head coach role somewhere else or go into international level as assistant. Wouldnt say Munster is natural evolution for him.