2019 All Ireland Senior Football Championship *Mod note: Post #1*

henke

I can see why people in a lot of counties don't want the provincials any more but I know in Ulster it still has a lot of meaning. It's tougher to win and arguably puts it's team at a disadvantage come the all Ireland series but still it's great to win it. I personally wouldn't want to see them scrapped but I can see why teams in Leinster and Munster might want to.

gormdubhgorm

SirGerryAdams wrote: »

I like the provincial because of the history aspect.

Maybe promote the league as a development competition to blood new players, have an open draw with 4 or 5 teams in a group. Meaning you'd play new teams every year. Mayo could play Louth with a second string etc.

'With respect' as Gerry himself used to say...
I think the exact opposite.
The provincials lost thier bite when the backdoor system came in.
It was no longer a proper knockout competition.

The League should be made into the GAA's Premier competition with home and away games throughout the year
It is a great competition even with only one game each.
If they made it like a normal league it would be fantastic.
It is the best competition the GAA have, even the days of teams treating it as 'only the league' are well gone.
Plus if you watch the league closely it is normally a fairly good indicator how where teams will be in the Championship.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

'With respect' as Gerry himself used to say...
I think the exact opposite.
The provincials lost thier bite when the backdoor system came in.
It was no longer a proper knockout competition.

The League should be made into the GAA's Premier competition with home and away games.
It is a great competition.
The best the GAA have, even the days of teams treating it as 'only the league' are well gone.
Plus if you watch the league closely it is normally a fairly good indicator how where teams will be in the Championship.

I don't get what you mean about 'losing their bite'?

The backdoor has improved the standards imo and was a good initiative overall.

threeball

bucketybuck wrote: »

Unfortunately accepting that means accepting that the GAA as people knew it no longer exists.

The entire point of the GAA is club and county, and the dream that your club or county can win it all. My county for example never won a damn thing, but we could have, there was always a genuine possibility that we could do it, and so we persisted.

Put it in black and white that we no longer have that chance, that we aren't even in the competition any more, and there is literally no point in that team existing any longer.

People keep talking about levels, this team on that level etc etc. There were always good teams and bad teams but the differences were never so great as to be insurmountable, teams from lower levels could always step it up in just a few years.

I genuinely feel that a paradigm has shifted in that regard, a monster has been created and the unintended consequence is that a lot of people and a lot of counties are just giving up because they know that the quality gap simply cannot be bridged.

And amalgamation? They might do it, but it won't be my county any longer. By definition it won't be my county any longer, and I won't give two farts about whatever team it is that takes its place.

But you haven't won it and you won't win it. Dreams are ok once there's a realistic element attached. A lad dreaming Galway will win the double is in unlikely territory but still a possibility. Someone dreaming Wicklow or carlow will win the all Ireland are not in touch with reality.

At some point reality has to take precedence and a decision needs to be made. Are we happy to compete at our own level and win league division 3 or 2 at a stretch or do we try to join another county and push for the big one. Nothing outside those two choices will ever become reality. It's that stark.

threeball

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I don't get what you mean about 'losing their bite'?

The backdoor has improved the standards imo and was a good initiative overall.

He means they have no real meaning as there's always a safety net. You lose, you head off to the qualifiers. Championship should be knockout not some weird hybrid where the loser keeps getting recycled back in to keep people happy.

gormdubhgorm

threeball wrote: »

I mentioned it two years ago and nearly got ate. There's plenty would make natural bedfellows in my opinion like Sligo and leitrim, laois and offaly. Separate underage to maximise the talent pool and amalgamate at senior.

Counties would have a choice if they wanted to draft players. I'm sure there's dozens of good players in Dublin with a parent from a weaker county who just won't make the Dublin set up. If a county wants them, one or two wouldn't be any harm for either the player or the county.

I think there are a few Dubs already playing for other counties.

Delcan Darcy is the only one I remember from years ago with Leitrim though.

As for the amalgamation/split of teams last year I made up 16 teams/regions before -

Re-Branded them and everything -


1 )Dublin North = (Dublin Vikings)
2) Dublin South = (Poddle Panthers)
3) Kildare = (Christy's Shovels)
4) Mayo = (Cora's Champions)
5) East Kerry (Play 'right's')
6) West Kerry (Ding-Dang's)
7) Wicklow Wexford, Kilkenny, Carlow, = (Sunshine Gaels)
8) Laois Ofally Westmeath, Longford = (Midland Marauders)
9) Meath Cavan Louth = (Breffnis)
10) Cork, Waterford, Tipp, Limerick (Boru's)
11) Sligo, Leitrim, Roscommon (Yeat's Stealer's)
12) Clare, Galway (Claregalway)
13) Monaghan Armagh (Farney's Orchard)
14) Fermanagh, Donegal (Conaill-Ernesiders)
15) Derry, Antrim, Down (Dad's Army)
16) Tyrone (Hand on Harte's)

That is Basically the GAA's job done for them.

FrancieBrady

threeball wrote: »

He means they have no real meaning as there's always a safety net. You lose, you head off to the qualifiers. Championship should be knockout not some weird hybrid where the loser keeps getting recycled back in to keep people happy.

But the 'bite' in that respect was more harmful than good. The backdoor has massively improved the standard in Ulster imo. Literally anyone could win it (bar maybe Antrim who seem more content to concentrate on hurling)
You still win the provincial crown which most counties (bar Tyrone according to Strabani???) still covet.

ArnoldJRimmer

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I think there are a few Dubs already playing for other counties.

Delcan Darcy is the only one I remember from years ago with Leitrim though.

As for the amlagamation/spilt of teams last year I made up 16 teams/regions-

Re-Branded them and everything

I went further and made 16 teams gave them new names and everything:


1 )Dublin North = (Dublin Vikings)
2) Dublin South = (Poddle Panthers)
3) Kildare = (Christy's Shovels)
4) Mayo = (Cora's Champions)
5) East Kerry (Play 'right's')
6) West Kerry (Ding-Dang's)
7) Wicklow Wexford, Kilkenny, Carlow, = (Sunshine Gaels)
8) Laois Ofally Westmeath, Longford = (Midland Marauders)
9) Meath Cavan Louth = (Breffnis)
10) Cork, Waterford, Tipp, Limerick (Boru's)
11) Sligo, Leitrim, Roscommon (Yeat's Stealer's)
12) Clare, Galway (Claregalway)
13) Monaghan Armagh (Farney's Orchard)
14) Fermanagh, Donegal (Conaill-Ernesiders)
15) Derry, Antrim, Down (Dad's Army)
16) Tyrone (Hand on Harte's)

That is Basically the GAA's job done for them.[/QUOTE]

As much as I resent the fact that you put Donegal in with that shower and made Tyrone independent, I'd like to see this for a Breffni's match alone. The amount of rows breaking out among their own players would be epic

threeball

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I think there are a few Dubs already playing for other counties.

Delcan Darcy is the only one I remember from years ago with Leitrim though.

As for the amlagamation/spilt of teams last year I made up 16 teams/regions-

Re-Branded them and everything

I went further and made 16 teams gave them new names and everything:


1 )Dublin North = (Dublin Vikings)
2) Dublin South = (Poddle Panthers)
3) Kildare = (Christy's Shovels)
4) Mayo = (Cora's Champions)
5) East Kerry (Play 'right's')
6) West Kerry (Ding-Dang's)
7) Wicklow Wexford, Kilkenny, Carlow, = (Sunshine Gaels)
8) Laois Ofally Westmeath, Longford = (Midland Marauders)
9) Meath Cavan Louth = (Breffnis)
10) Cork, Waterford, Tipp, Limerick (Boru's)
11) Sligo, Leitrim, Roscommon (Yeat's Stealer's)
12) Clare, Galway (Claregalway)
13) Monaghan Armagh (Farney's Orchard)
14) Fermanagh, Donegal (Conaill-Ernesiders)
15) Derry, Antrim, Down (Dad's Army)
16) Tyrone (Hand on Harte's)

That is Basically the GAA's job done for them.[/quote]

Something along those lines. Some of those would be strong enough on their own like Galway would be as strong as Mayo or Tyrone and are 3rd in the roll of honour, possibly cork too but there's merit in joining together others. I think it would only really work where 2 counties were joined unless particularly weak like kk.

Hurling should implement something similar with a rest of connaught team and two Ulster teams to give the game a boost in those areas.

threeball

FrancieBrady wrote: »

But the 'bite' in that respect was more harmful than good. The backdoor has massively improved the standard in Ulster imo. Literally anyone could win it (bar maybe Antrim who seem more content to concentrate on hurling)
You still win the provincial crown which most counties (bar Tyrone according to Strabani???) still covet.

I made the point before that it's akin to winning the triple crown. It's nice but meaningless unless you win the lot out. A league title is far more valuable in my book. No one should win anything for winning 3 games. I wouldn't give an u6 team a medal for doing that.

OldMrBrennan83

bucketybuck wrote: »

Unfortunately accepting that means accepting that the GAA as people knew it no longer exists.

The entire point of the GAA is club and county, and the dream that your club or county can win it all. My county for example never won a damn thing, but we could have, there was always a genuine possibility that we could do it, and so we persisted.

Put it in black and white that we no longer have that chance, that we aren't even in the competition any more, and there is literally no point in that team existing any longer.

People keep talking about levels, this team on that level etc etc. There were always good teams and bad teams but the differences were never so great as to be insurmountable, teams from lower levels could always step it up in just a few years.

I genuinely feel that a paradigm has shifted in that regard, a monster has been created and the unintended consequence is that a lot of people and a lot of counties are just giving up because they know that the quality gap simply cannot be bridged.

And amalgamation? They might do it, but it won't be my county any longer. By definition it won't be my county any longer, and I won't give two farts about whatever team it is that takes its place.

Exactly. Amalgamate my county and you take my county. That would be the end of the GAA altogether for me.

FrancieBrady

threeball wrote: »

I made the point before that it's akin to winning the triple crown. It's nice but meaningless unless you win the lot out. A league title is far more valuable in my book. No one should win anything for winning 3 games. I wouldn't give an u6 team a medal for doing that.

I get your point, but I don't think that would be the view of most fans.

threeball

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

Exactly. Amalgamate my county and you take my county. That would be the end of the GAA altogether for me.

Why? You're still from where you're from. You have a club but all clubs amalgamate to form a county team, those players amalgamate to play international rules for Ireland. It's turns out they're not aliens.
What's the difference. Clubs do it all the time to survive.

gormdubhgorm

threeball wrote: »

That is Basically the GAA's job done for them.


Something along those lines. Some of those would be strong enough on their own like Galway would be as strong as Mayo or Tyrone and are 3rd in the roll of honour, possibly cork too but there's merit in joining together others. I think it would only really work where 2 counties were joined unless particularly weak like kk.

Hurling should implement something similar with a rest of connaught team and two Ulster teams to give the game a boost in those areas.

There are/were plenty of smaller counties in the past who had 6/7/8 quality players like Longford/Louth/Fermanagh in the noughties

I always think to myself that they never get the recognition they deserve playing for weaker counties. It's a shame really.

Noelmcgov28

km79 wrote: »

So Saturday night at 7pm the gaa have now scheduled
Munster final cork vs Kerry
And two knockout games
Monaghan vs Armagh
Down vs mayo
3 interesting games in their own way

Only one on TV obviously as they are all at the same time

Sky have decided that NONE of the 4 knockout games are worthy of their time
http://twitter.com/CahairOKane1/status/1138680646421889025

Can't wait for the Sunday game to show 2 minutes of coverage of all qualifier matches You wouldn't hear this sort of carry on for hurling.

threeball

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I get your point, but I don't think that would be the view of most fans.

Maybe in Ulster but Kerry couldn't give a sh1te about winning munster, mayo and Galway don't really give a Damn about winning connaught, Dublin yawn at winning Leinster. The fans are the same. The provincials are dead

gormdubhgorm

threeball wrote: »

Why? You're still from where you're from. You have a club but all clubs amalgamate to form a county team, those players amalgamate to play international rules for Ireland. It's turns out they're not aliens.
What's the difference. Clubs do it all the time to survive.

I agree 100%
Off the top of my head.
Ballyboden St Enda's, Kilmacud Crokes, Ballymun Kickhams were all formed from amalgamations with other clubs.
Look at them now!

threeball

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I agree 100%
Off the top of my head.
Ballyboden St Enda's, Kilmacud Crokes, Ballymun Kickhams were all formed from amalgamations with other clubs.
Look at them now!

Clubs that don't swallow their pride at critical periods tend to disappear. As you pointed out those that do can go on to thrive.

bucketybuck

threeball wrote: »

But you haven't won it and you won't win it. Dreams are ok once there's a realistic element attached. A lad dreaming Galway will win the double is in unlikely territory but still a possibility. Someone dreaming Wicklow or carlow will win the all Ireland are not in touch with reality.

I feel you have missed my point.

Of course we won't win it, not now, not any more. But there was a time not so long ago that there was a genuine possibility of us doing it. The possibility was always there that the stars could align and smaller counties could go on a run. Those days are gone, now sports science and unmatchable numbers piss all over stars aligning.

So what next? That chance for every county to even have a chance was fundamental to the GAA, and when it goes then the GAA itself fundamentally changes. So obviously if they want to retain their ethos of club and county the question to be answered is how to get back to a level playing field for all 32 counties?

Unfortunately they are not answering that question. They don't care about that club and county ethos and instead of leveling things up they want to double down on having a small number of "big" teams. Thats easier you see, finding a structure that works for everybody is just too difficult with the Dublin elephant in the room.

threeball wrote: »

Counties would have a choice if they wanted to draft players. I'm sure there's dozens of good players in Dublin with a parent from a weaker county who just won't make the Dublin set up. If a county wants them, one or two wouldn't be any harm for either the player or the county.

I would like to be in the room when Sligo or Antrim are trying to tell some young Dublin lad he now has to go training with them on a Tuesday night.

threeball

bucketybuck wrote: »

I feel you have missed my point.

Of course we won't win it, not now, not any more. But there was a time not so long ago that there was a genuine possibility of us doing it. The possibility was always there that the stars could align and smaller counties could go on a run. Those days are gone, now sports science and unmatchable numbers piss all over stars aligning.

So what next? That chance for every county to even have a chance was fundamental to the GAA, and when it goes then the GAA itself fundamentally changes. So obviously if they want to retain their ethos of club and county the question to be answered is how to get back to a level playing field for all 32 counties?

Unfortunately they are not answering that question. They don't care about that club and county ethos and instead of leveling things up they want to double down on having a small number of "big" teams. Thats easier you see, finding a structure that works for everybody is just too difficult with the Dublin elephant in the room.



I would like to be in the room when Sligo or Antrim are trying to tell some young Dublin lad he now has to go training with them on a Tuesday night.

Counties worked back in the day when generally lads played football to get away from it all after a weeks work. Now the main focus of the week is football, training etc. so county boundaries as drawn by the Brits are not fit for purpose.
Clubs are all about the parish but what about clubs that are made up of more than one parish as most are. Does that give them less identity. Corofin is made up of about 6 parishes. Are they not worthy all Ireland champions and do their supporters give a sh1te.

gormdubhgorm

threeball wrote: »

Counties worked back in the day when generally lads played football to get away from it all after a weeks work. Now the main focus of the week is football, training etc. so county boundaries as drawn by the Brits are not fit for purpose.
Clubs are all about the parish but what about clubs that are made up of more than one parish as most are. Does that give them less identity. Corofin is made up of about 6 parishes. Are they not worthy all Ireland champions and do their supporters give a sh1te.

Or not even a full parish in some cases like Longford club, Mullinalaghta. They are a 'half parish'

blanch152

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I think there are a few Dubs already playing for other counties.

Delcan Darcy is the only one I remember from years ago with Leitrim though.

As for the amalgamation/split of teams last year I made up 16 teams/regions before -

Re-Branded them and everything -


1 )Dublin North = (Dublin Vikings)
2) Dublin South = (Poddle Panthers)
3) Kildare = (Christy's Shovels)
4) Mayo = (Cora's Champions)
5) East Kerry (Play 'right's')
6) West Kerry (Ding-Dang's)
7) Wicklow Wexford, Kilkenny, Carlow, = (Sunshine Gaels)
8) Laois Ofally Westmeath, Longford = (Midland Marauders)
9) Meath Cavan Louth = (Breffnis)
10) Cork, Waterford, Tipp, Limerick (Boru's)
11) Sligo, Leitrim, Roscommon (Yeat's Stealer's)
12) Clare, Galway (Claregalway)
13) Monaghan Armagh (Farney's Orchard)
14) Fermanagh, Donegal (Conaill-Ernesiders)
15) Derry, Antrim, Down (Dad's Army)
16) Tyrone (Hand on Harte's)

That is Basically the GAA's job done for them.

I agree completely with your ideas. If Dublin is ever split, there will have to be amalgamations at the same time, to give other counties a chance to win.

I wouldn't necessarily agree with your match-ups. Here is another option.

(1) Dublin North
(2) Dublin South
(3) Kerry East
(4) Kerry West
(5) Cork
(6) Mayo
(7) Meath
(8) Galway
(9) Kildare
(10) Tyrone
(11) Clare/Limerick
(12) Sligo/Leitrim
(13) Roscommon
(14) Donegal
(15) Cavan/Fermanagh
(16) Antrim/Derry
(17) Down
(18) Monaghan/Louth
(19) Westmeath/Longford
(20) Wicklow/Wexford
(21) Laois/Offaly
(22) Tipperary/Waterford
(23) Carlow/Kilkenny
(24) Armagh

With 24 teams, you could run 4 groups of six teams, with an open draw, with home and away guaranteeing every team ten games in the Championship, followed by the top two in every group in the quarter-finals. That could also be run on a home and away basis, followed by semi-finals and a final in Croke Park.

So-called Dublin advantages would be eliminated, but there would be a real competitive Championship. The above is the minimum needed in terms of amalgamations. If you want to include London and New York on their own, further amalagamations would be necessary.

A better solution would be to reduce to 16. You could leave Dublin and Kerry alone, but increase the number of amalgamations.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I don't get what you mean about 'losing their bite'?

The backdoor has improved the standards imo and was a good initiative overall.

I mean it used to be if your team lost thier season was over.
One chance and your gone, that created an air of tension no matter which side your side were facing. Especially, if there was about 5 points in it. A bounce of a ball and a sending off - your team is gone for the year.
Now there is a safety net.
So it has been really devalued as a competition.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I mean it used to be if your team lost thier season was over.
One chance and your gone, that created an air of tension no matter which side your side were facing. Especially, if there was about 5 points in it. A bounce of a ball and a sending off - your team is gone for the year.
Now there is a safety net.
So it has been really devalued as a competition.

I don't agree that it has been a detrimental thing overall. You still see plenty willing and wanting to see games.

gormdubhgorm

blanch152 wrote: »

I agree completely with your ideas. If Dublin is ever split, there will have to be amalgamations at the same time, to give other counties a chance to win.

I wouldn't necessarily agree with your match-ups. Here is another option.

(1) Dublin North
(2) Dublin South
(3) Kerry East
(4) Kerry West
(5) Cork
(6) Mayo
(7) Meath
(8) Galway
(9) Kildare
(10) Tyrone
(11) Clare/Limerick
(12) Sligo/Leitrim
(13) Roscommon
(14) Donegal
(15) Cavan/Fermanagh
(16) Antrim/Derry
(17) Down
(18) Monaghan/Louth
(19) Westmeath/Longford
(20) Wicklow/Wexford
(21) Laois/Offaly
(22) Tipperary/Waterford
(23) Carlow/Kilkenny
(24) Armagh

With 24 teams, you could run 4 groups of six teams, with an open draw, with home and away guaranteeing every team ten games in the Championship, followed by the top two in every group in the quarter-finals. That could also be run on a home and away basis, followed by semi-finals and a final in Croke Park.

So-called Dublin advantages would be eliminated, but there would be a real competitive Championship. The above is the minimum needed in terms of amalgamations. If you want to include London and New York on their own, further amalagamations would be necessary.

A better solution would be to reduce to 16. You could leave Dublin and Kerry alone, but increase the number of amalgamations.

Your idea could work as well.
If I remember when made it up ages ago - I was trying to keep it in regions and try and get decent populations/strength for each one - sort of like constituencies in elections.

I doubt very much it will happen in my life time.
There would be another civil war in the country before it happens!

American's are great at that type of thing with thier 'franchises'.
Tradition does not seem to run so deep with them.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I don't agree that it has been a detrimental thing overall. You still see plenty willing and wanting to see games.

Your'e an Ulsterman though. Different thing entirely to the rest of the country for obvious historical/political reasons.
I think the pride each county has up there in it's identity, makes the competition what it is.
In the other three provinces there is not the same level of expression of identity.
Not in the same way.

OldMrBrennan83

blanch152 wrote: »

I agree completely with your ideas. If Dublin is ever split, there will have to be amalgamations at the same time, to give other counties a chance to win.

I wouldn't necessarily agree with your match-ups. Here is another option.

(1) Dublin North
(2) Dublin South
(3) Kerry East
(4) Kerry West
(5) Cork
(6) Mayo
(7) Meath
(8) Galway
(9) Kildare
(10) Tyrone
(11) Clare/Limerick
(12) Sligo/Leitrim
(13) Roscommon
(14) Donegal
(15) Cavan/Fermanagh
(16) Antrim/Derry
(17) Down
(18) Monaghan/Louth
(19) Westmeath/Longford
(20) Wicklow/Wexford
(21) Laois/Offaly
(22) Tipperary/Waterford
(23) Carlow/Kilkenny
(24) Armagh

With 24 teams, you could run 4 groups of six teams, with an open draw, with home and away guaranteeing every team ten games in the Championship, followed by the top two in every group in the quarter-finals. That could also be run on a home and away basis, followed by semi-finals and a final in Croke Park.

So-called Dublin advantages would be eliminated, but there would be a real competitive Championship. The above is the minimum needed in terms of amalgamations. If you want to include London and New York on their own, further amalagamations would be necessary.

A better solution would be to reduce to 16. You could leave Dublin and Kerry alone, but increase the number of amalgamations.

I hate Wexfords teams. Why would I support a team that has Wexford in it?

You'd be putting a bullet into the GAA on the whole with such rubbish.

nice_guy80

Most counties can aspire to win a provincial title (well get could in Leinster up to 2010).
Most counties will never get near an All Ireland final, but local rivalry and that chance of silverware keeps most counties going

Plus, most supporters don't like travelling long distances to games
Even in Connacht - Ros fans won't travel to salthill in big numbers
In Ulster you had a pathetic crowd at Donegal v Tyrone because of the venue.

White lighting

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Most counties can aspire to win a provincial title (well get could in Leinster up to 2010).
Most counties will never get near an All Ireland final, but local rivalry and that chance of silverware keeps most counties going

Plus, most supporters don't like travelling long distances to games
Even in Connacht - Ros fans won't travel to salthill in big numbers
In Ulster you had a pathetic crowd at Donegal v Tyrone because of the venue.

Ros fans dont travel as well to salthill because it's the biggest kip of a ground ever built to get in and out of. Drawn connaght final in 2016 it took 5 hours to get from salthill to Oranmore in traffic. i would have been home from Belfast or cork quicker and i live in the Athlone area, Normally a 45/50 minute drive was 6 hours that day.

Slattsy

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Most counties can aspire to win a provincial title (well get could in Leinster up to 2010).
Most counties will never get near an All Ireland final, but local rivalry and that chance of silverware keeps most counties going

Plus, most supporters don't like travelling long distances to games
Even in Connacht - Ros fans won't travel to salthill in big numbers
In Ulster you had a pathetic crowd at Donegal v Tyrone because of the venue.

Can most counties in munster aspire to win a provincial title?

Two is the answer, in case you're struggling a wee bit this morning. Hardly most, but whatever suits your bitter narrative I suppose. Keep going though.