2019 All Ireland Senior Football Championship *Mod note: Post #1*

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SirGerryAdams wrote: »

I didn't see Mayo v Roscommon - that was on Sky.

That should have been on a sunday on Virgin or RTE.

If it wasn't on sky it wouldnt have been shown anywhere.
The only want show that hoof and chase after it hurling ****e

gormdubhgorm

HBC08 wrote: »

Kilkennys success was a once in a century collection of players,this happens in sport sometimes.
The dublin situation is as a result of financial doping and not a level playing field.This is simply a fact.

So you are saying that the Dublin players are 'not once a century' players?
They are even better than that?
Once in a millennium maybe?

What about Kerry of 70's / 80's with thier seeded draw etc.
11 Munster titles in a row! 8 AI's in that period - a four (should have been five in a row) - then a three in a row.

I think your type of post is a disgraceful disrespect to the current Dublin team, as you completely disregard thier skills levels, levels of dedication, and tactical nous.

ToBeFrank123

Most people agree currently Dublin are a great team with a great manager.
But most also agree their dominance is slowly strangling the life out of the sport much like the dominance of Vettel killed neutral interest in F1, Lance Armstrong and later SKY made the Tour De France a foregone conclusion and also the Scottish Premier League with Celtic.

Good luck to Dublin, but I think this current generation of GAA administrators and followers have a duty to hand the sport over to the next generation in a healthy state and not a micky mouse competition that is a foregone conclusion.

The risk is young people 10 or 20 years from now will have no interest in gaelic football and zero interest in the feats of the current Dublin team, the Kerry 4 in a row, Galway 3 in a row, and great players like O'Connell, Purcell and even many of the current Dublin players.

Dublin have been overwhelmingly successful both on and off the field in putting a stranglehold on Sam Maguire. A positive for Dublin no doubt, but for everyone else its hardly positive. And there is no end in sight to this dominance, except maybe a fluke result and even that looks unlikely.

So yeh, lets all try and avoid Sam Maguire becoming a mickey mouse trophy if possible and lets keep some credibility to the championship where at least one other team wins it every now and again. Even once a decade for someone other than Dublin winning would be nice.

Pogue eile

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

But most also agree their dominance is slowly strangling the life out of the sport much like the dominance of Vettel killed neutral interest in F1, Lance Armstrong and later SKY made the Tour De France a foregone conclusion and also the Scottish Premier League with Celtic.

Interesting examples - Vettel never dominated, certainly no more that about 5 others in the sport, Armstrong was a drug cheat and Celtic's dominance was a direct result of their opponents financial doping!

ToBeFrank123

Pogue eile wrote: »

Interesting examples - Vettel never dominated, certainly no more that about 5 others in the sport, Armstrong was a drug cheat and Celtic's dominance was a direct result of their opponents financial doping!

It doesn't matter how they came to dominate, its just the fact they dominate. It slowly kills interest in the sport and raises cynicism with people saying things like "why would I bother watching on TV or going to watch a sport where the final outcome is a foregone conclusion?". They'd rather spend money on something where the end result is up in the air.

If you don't like the Celtic analogy, fine, I can use the PSG one.

And yes Vettel was untouchable for years and it didn't help he had little or no personality. Hamilton isn't much of an improvement. At least Schumacher was a brilliant driver who sometimes worked miracles in an average car, especially at Benetton and at times was a pantomime villain. Todays drivers are marketing and PR dreams, no personality, no opinions, no controversy worth talking about. They'd rather play their playstation than punch the driver who ran into them or head to the pub after a race.

gormdubhgorm

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Good luck to Dublin, but I think this current generation of GAA administrators and followers have a duty to hand the sport over to the next generation in a healthy state and not a micky mouse competition that is a foregone conclusion.

The risk is young people 10 or 20 years from now will have no interest in gaelic football and zero interest in the feats of the current Dublin team, the Kerry 4 in a row, Galway 3 in a row, and great players like O'Connell, Purcell and even many of the current Dublin players.

Good point Gaelic football could easily go the way of the international-compromise rules /Railway Cup and slip away from public consciousness.

The GAA have teams at inter-county who are looking for a fair competition at all levels. With regular games. And a competitions treated with respect and marketed properly. They just seem utterly incapable of getting them into structures and competitions that everyone can enjoy.

The whole country seems to be in state of 'Ah sure, that's the GAA... what can you do? Only wait for something 'meaningful' change to happen.

As a Dub each year now I look forward to the league - Not because of the weather.
But because it is entertaining and the teams are well met.
Roscommon gave Dublin, a good rattle in Hyde Park earlier this year for example.
I enjoyed the day even though it rained travelling there, during the game, and after the game.
Dublin club football is great entertainment as well - even people from outside Dublin would enjoy it.
Only for the Dublin hurlers - there is no sense of real interest/excitement at inter-county level for me, until maybe the middle of next month/arguably August.
That can't be right.

bucketybuck

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

It doesn't matter how they came to dominate

It really does.

ToBeFrank123

bucketybuck wrote: »

It really does.

We can get into the discussion of financial doping if you want, I don't mind. I've tried to avoid it as I know people are sick of it, but if you want to discuss how certain teams in certain sports get to the stage where no-one else can get a look in, we can do that. Cycling, F1, even athletics, soccer and so on. Teams with most money can buy the best players, trainers and managers, drivers and cyclists. You get back what you put in.

On the otherhand we can just say its not good for any team to have one team dominate.

SirGerryAdams

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

So you are saying that the Dublin players are 'not once a century' players?
They are even better than that?
Once in a millennium maybe?

What about Kerry of 70's / 80's with thier seeded draw etc.
11 Munster titles in a row! 8 AI's in that period - a four (should have been five in a row) - then a three in a row.

I think your type of post is a disgraceful disrespect to the current Dublin team, as you completely disregard thier skills levels, levels of dedication, and tactical nous.

In fairness, going back to the 70's and comparing it to today is not fair considering the professionalism of the game today.

How many lifestyle coaches were around back then?

Coillte_Bhoy

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

It doesn't matter how they came to dominate, its just the fact they dominate. It slowly kills interest in the sport and raises cynicism with people saying things like "why would I bother watching on TV or going to watch a sport where the final outcome is a foregone conclusion?". They'd rather spend money on something where the end result is up in the air.

If you don't like the Celtic analogy, fine, I can use the PSG one.

Celtic's dominance is not leading to a decline in interest in the SPL, far from it, in fact attendances have been rising the last few seasons. Anyway i dont think it makes any sense to compare a full time professional league with a representative competition.

Pogue eile

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

It doesn't matter how they came to dominate, its just the fact they dominate. It slowly kills interest in the sport and raises cynicism with people saying things like "why would I bother watching on TV or going to watch a sport where the final outcome is a foregone conclusion?". They'd rather spend money on something where the end result is up in the air.

If you don't like the Celtic analogy, fine, I can use the PSG one.

And yes Vettel was untouchable for years and it didn't help he had little or no personality. Hamilton isn't much of an improvement. At least Schumacher was a brilliant driver who sometimes worked miracles in an average car, especially at Benetton and at times was a pantomime villain. Todays drivers are marketing and PR dreams, no personality, no opinions, no controversy worth talking about. They'd rather play their playstation than punch the driver who ran into them or head to the pub after a race.

Well I thought the point of how they came to dominate was the whole point of the arguemnt?

PSG example is even more irrelevant,Freanch Lique 1 has never been as successful.

Fan of Netflix

I don't think a tiered championship is the answer at all. My county would likely be tier 1 at the moment if it came in but I'm still against it. The Joe McDonagh and lower tier hurling are treated disgracefully. I see the lower tier hurling finals are this weekend, nobody knows or cares, be a pitiful attendance.

I would not attend a glorified Tommy Murphy cup, would just stick to club football. The Tier is not the answer, because by far the biggest gap is Dublin and the rest of the teams. It just will not make sense. You will still have Dublin embarrassing Kildare and others in a tiered championship.

gormdubhgorm

SirGerryAdams wrote: »

In fairness, going back to the 70's and comparing it to today is not fair considering the professionalism of the game today.

How many lifestyle coaches were around back then?

It does not matter no team had lifestyle coaches, but they all had big hills to run up and down. Plus Kerry and Dublin were way ahead of the pack, when it came to running up hills and doing laps of the field.

Also do you really in your heart of heart's think Bernard Dunne is responsible for Dublin's success?

Come on....

Do you remember that documentary of Dublin that featured Pillar Caffery in 2006 - 'Dubs the story of a season'?
The rest of the country laughed at it.

https://www.rte.ie/player/movie/the-dubs-the-story-of-a-season/76848680330

So it is OK if all these little things don't bring success = funny ?
Ice baths etc

The 'Blue Book' in 2008 -

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/flashback-to-dublins-blue-book-and-how-one-quote-fits-for-mayos-long-wait-36133960.html

The rest of the country had a great laugh at that one - AI champions 2008 written on it
It embarrassed Dublin supporters.
But when these little things are viewed as 'worked' because of success it is viewed as an advantage?

Pogue eile

Fan of Netflix wrote: »

I don't think a tiered championship is the answer at all. My county would likely be tier 1 at the moment if it came in but I'm still against it. The Joe McDonagh and lower tier hurling are treated disgracefully. I see the lower tier hurling finals are this weekend, nobody knows or cares, be a pitiful attendance.

I would not attend a glorified Tommy Murphy cup, would just stick to club football. The Tier is not the answer, because by far the biggest gap is Dublin and the rest of the teams. It just will not make sense. You will still have Dublin embarrassing Kildare and others in a tiered championship.

Surely a contradiction? Plenty care and plenty outside of the particiapting counties as well.

But regardless of that, what has hurling got to do with football, complete apples and oranges situation when football is clearly the number one game in more counties.

The issue you raise is nothing to do with the tiered system rather the way in which they are promoted and presented. If you dont agree with a tiered approach and you suggest you will simply stick to club football, are you proposing to abolish all Intermediate and Junior clubs and make them all play senior and just take their beatings?

ToBeFrank123

Pogue eile wrote: »

Well I thought the point of how they came to dominate was the whole point of the arguemnt?

PSG example is even more irrelevant,Freanch Lique 1 has never been as successful.

Well no, I'm more interested in what happens when one team dominates. But you'd have to concede Celtic, PSG, SKY cycling, Barcelona, Real, Juve, Man City, etc etc have more resources than the majority of their opponents bar the odd exception. Its the reason for their dominance. They buy success. Its the same in "amateur" sports, you hire the best coaches, physios, nutrionists, eventually it pays off and you dominate.

The league table never lies at the end of the season. Teams are where they are due to the resources they put in and players and coaches they invested in.

I concede your point on Scottish league attendances, but that's not the experience we are seeing in Leinster GAA for example where attendances have declined.

Alvin Holler

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

What about Kerry of 70's / 80's with thier seeded draw etc.
11 Munster titles in a row! 8 AI's in that period - a four (should have been five in a row) - then a three in a row.

They did 11 in 12 years rather than 11 in a row.

gormdubhgorm

Pogue eile wrote: »

Surely a contradiction? Plenty care and plenty outside of the particiapting counties as well.

But regardless of that, what has hurling got to do with football, complete apples and oranges situation when football is clearly the number one game in more counties.

The issue you raise is nothing to do with the tiered system rather the way in which they are promoted and presented. If you dont agree with a tiered approach and you suggest you will simply stick to club football, are you proposing to abolish all Intermediate and Junior clubs and make them all play senior and just take their beatings?

It seems to comeback to branding/tradition the supporters of the smaller counties seem to want to have thier cake and eat it.
Play in with the way stronger teams get hammered - they lose interest.
Play at thier own level against similar teams and they have no interest.

gormdubhgorm

Alvin Holler wrote: »

They did 11 in 12 years rather than 11 in a row.

Yeah I stand corrected you are right.
I can't count.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munster_Senior_Football_Championship#List_of_winners_by_year

ToBeFrank123

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

It seems to comeback to branding/tradition the supporters of the smaller counties seem to want to have thier cake and eat it.
Play in with the way stronger teams get hammered - they lose interest.
Play at thier own level against similar teams and they have no interest.

Yes, and I'm not defending it by the way, just pointing out it exists among players and supporters.
Its hard to know whether to have sympathy for them or not.
Even in a tier 2 championship, there is wide gaps between teams, with some strong teams and others who might never get promoted and would be left for years in a second tier. Hardly ideal for encouraging interest in these counties.

As it stands though, the qualifiers are a tier 2 championship of sorts where there is a route to the super8s and this at least encourages some teams.

BonnieSituation

SirGerryAdams wrote: »

In fairness, going back to the 70's and comparing it to today is not fair considering the professionalism of the game today.

How many lifestyle coaches were around back then?

And how many byes to provincial finals do Dublin get now? We can do this all day.

blanch152

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Yeah I stand corrected you are right.
I can't count.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munster_Senior_Football_Championship#List_of_winners_by_year

In the last 84 years, Kerry and Cork have won 83 Munster Championships between them, with Clare winning a solitary one in 1992.

Waterford, Tipperary and Limerick haven't had a hope.

In those 84 years, Cork have only won 25, meaning Kerry have won 69% of the Munster Championships.

In the same period, Dublin have won 36 of the 84 Leinster Championships, only 42%.

Take a more recent period, the era since 1970 when we saw Dublin and Kerry dominate the All-Ireland Championship for the most of a decade. In those 49 years, Dublin have won 28, yet they still lag behind Kerry, who have incredibly won 31 of the 49.

In All-Ireland terms, Kerry have won 16 during that period, to Dublin's 11.

ToBeFrank123

blanch152 wrote: »

In the last 84 years, Kerry and Cork have won 83 Munster Championships between them, with Clare winning a solitary one in 1992.

Waterford, Tipperary and Limerick haven't had a hope.

In those 84 years, Cork have only won 25, meaning Kerry have won 69% of the Munster Championships.

In the same period, Dublin have won 36 of the 84 Leinster Championships, only 42%.

Take a more recent period, the era since 1970 when we saw Dublin and Kerry dominate the All-Ireland Championship for the most of a decade. In those 49 years, Dublin have won 28, yet they still lag behind Kerry, who have incredibly won 31 of the 49.

In All-Ireland terms, Kerry have won 16 during that period, to Dublin's 11.

We all agree a small number of counties will always dominate and very occasionally an outsider will break through for a short while.
More needs to be done to redistribute resources from the likes of Kerry, Mayo, Galway and Dublin to the likes of Sligo, Waterford, Tipperary and Carlow in football. One option might be semi professionalism for smaller counties to help them reach the same level as the big boys. Wouldn't it be great to see Diarmuid Connolly lining out for Carlow or Wicklow? Only something really radical to boost the smaller counties will work now. Nothing else.

After this 5 in a row is complete, I hope Dublin supporters start seriously thinking about the future of the sport, take off the sky blue jerseys, and ask how can the competition be made more competitive. Because the way things are going, in 20 years people won't care about gaelic football or the great Dublin team of this era.

tayto lover

Kerry won many All Ireland’s but only had three competitive matches.
Ulster teams might have had a preliminary match and then three competitive games just to get out of the province.

I know it’s harder now for Kerry but everything was in their favour for many years.

The fairest way is either an open draw or a two tier competition like what is being proposed. Time to change the system or people will lose interest.

Fann Linn

tayto lover wrote: »

Kerry won many All Ireland’s but only had three competitive matches.
Ulster teams might have had a preliminary match and then three competitive games just to get out of the province.

I know it’s harder now for Kerry but everything was in their favour for many years.

The fairest way is either an open draw or a two tier competition like what is being proposed. Time to change the system or people will lose interest.

An open draw would be great. 34 teams into a pot, first team out gets home advantage, live draw on tv and radio.

Edgware

SirGerryAdams wrote: »

In fairness, going back to the 70's and comparing it to today is not fair considering the professionalism of the game today.

How many lifestyle coaches were around back then?

"Professionalism" You must be joking. As soon as a team has to play a second game within a week due to a replay or a Qualifier draw we hear them whinging about "pressure"
They players like to play the professional with their earphones on getting off the bus etcbut they wouldnt last a month in real professional sport

Beagslife

Apt for the day that's in it but Jim's well thought out proposal is worth another look nearly four years on to the day that is was published.
Tiered Championship Proposal

HBC08

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

So you are saying that the Dublin players are 'not once a century' players?
They are even better than that?
Once in a millennium maybe?

What about Kerry of 70's / 80's with thier seeded draw etc.
11 Munster titles in a row! 8 AI's in that period - a four (should have been five in a row) - then a three in a row.

I think your type of post is a disgraceful disrespect to the current Dublin team, as you completely disregard thier skills levels, levels of dedication, and tactical nous.

Standard clueless reply.
Dublin are a once in a century team but theyll never get or deserve the same credit as Kerry or kilkenny.The reason is not anti dublin bias or jealousy.Its quite simply that they have undisputed unprecedented and unfair advantages.
Its not a level playing field.if dublin didnt win the all ireland it would be a complete embarrassment.

The_Honeybadger

Fann Linn wrote: »

An open draw would be great. 34 teams into a pot, first team out gets home advantage, live draw on tv and radio.

Open draw would be great, or even seeded with two pots Divisions 1 & 2 and Divisions 3 & 4. Overlap it with the league which is fast becoming more important and everyone has meaningful football over the summer.

RoyalCelt

In my opinion kerry and Dublin shouldn't receive a penny from the GAA. If those two sides came back to the pack attendances would soar.

robbiezero

RoyalCelt wrote: »

In my opinion kerry and Dublin shouldn't receive a penny from the GAA. If those two sides came back to the pack attendances would soar.

Kerry are in the chasing pack, they wouldn't want to be coming back any farther.