Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120802917#Comment_120802917

It should be prioritised over DU because it is an order of magnitude cheaper than DU (300mill, vs several billion) and the catchment area for a GL to metro grade is a lot larger than DU.

We don't even realistically know what routing for DU would be in the future, and given GL to metro grade has to happen at some stage, it would've made vastly more sense to do the tie in now, whilst the workers with the acquired knowledge of building Metrolink are now here and employed, vs later when we have to do research and review all of this again.

ArcadiaJunction

The Luas to the Airport 'cheaper option' is now officially out there. Which was the plan all along. Now they are making the classic 'makes sense' fallback clause. You could set your clock by them they are so predictable.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120823101#Comment_120823101

But surely DU would enable more public transport trips because it would connect so many more people to the existing LUAS, Rail and DART lines?

Metrolink only serves the people on the green line, whom obviously already have a good service today, plus those new locations from Swords and across the northside.

As a green line user, i dont see the material benefit of metrolink (outside of peak hours) and wouldnt appreciate months of disruption to Luas services to accomodate it. And we all know that 3 months disruption will turn into 6 months or 9 months or whatever.

DU, although not a huge benefit to me personally, appears to benefit more people overall, as we dont have any form of orbital PT in Dublin.

A Circle line that links the existing networks would surely be a great thing for Dublin and should encourage more PT journeys as connectivity increases.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120823749#Comment_120823749

What would be the route here?

spur from Broombridge?

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120825410#Comment_120825410

I'm not going to try an litigate the benefits of DU. However the projected capital cost for such a project is going to be quite large, as large as it is for the existing Metrolink line. This is without any sort of plan surrounding where stations would be located, what this route should be used for etc. Will it be dual or quad tracked to preserve the alignment for through traffic from Cork etc.

GL upgrade nearly doubles the capacity of the existing Green Line, more than will be possible from any sort of capacity upgrades. It also means faster service in the future, should the line be extended towards Bray. The original plan for the Green Line has always been to upgrade it to metro grade given the population density on the southside, especially considering how the Cherrywood development will be coming online very soon. km for km, at 300 million euro, it is the cheapest piece of rail infrastructure we could ever hope to achieve in this country. Dart Underground will come with time, but money not spent on GL upgrade isn't money which can then be used on DU. It is an order of magnitude more expensive.

salmocab

Still on the peak hours thing? We could do without nearly any infrastructure outside of peak hours.

prunudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120823749#Comment_120823749

Anyone, whether normal citizen, public representative or engineering consultant who thinks Luas to Airport is anywhere on par with metrolink needs a swift kick up the arse.

I'm getting sick of these half arsed measured being flagged as alternative to proper infrastructure plans. M20 vs m24 springs to mind too.

Our population is constantly increasing, we need proper infrastructure for the future, not continually going for the cheap measure only for it to be fall short within years of completion and have to be amended and reworked.

ArcadiaJunction

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120826152#Comment_120826152

Agree but this is Ireland and the Irish establishment consider anything other than 'a bit of an aul bus' to be a vanity project.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120825591#Comment_120825591

I understand that the projects wont necessarily be competing for the same funding pot, but i cant see them being built concurrently, due to the labour requirements and the general travel disruption caused.

Would it not be the case that DU would therefore be built sooner, if we didnt progress Metrolink?

Or we at least built DU first and then moved to Metrolink thereafter.

I suppose in the grand scheme, i would be suprised to see either project operating functionally in 15 years time. (even if we dropped Metrolink tomorrow and prioritised DU)

So on that front, I guess Metrolink by 2038 is better than no Metrolink or DU by 2038.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120827047#Comment_120827047

If we did not do MetroLink, then yes DU could happen. The reason we chose ML over DU was the plausible benefits for connecting the Airport to the City Centre, and connecting Swords and the rest of Fingal to Dublin properly in areas which aren't served appropriately by rail or bus.

Dart Underground provides benefits in taking pressure off the Dublin-Cork and Dublin Belfast lines, and acts a true replacement to the Phoenix Park tunnel. However it would prove to be significantly costly, and now the PPT is open, the need for folk on the Heuston Mainline services to access the East of the city is lessened. Not gone but its lessened. That's why ML has been chosen instead. It opens up huge tracts of brownfield sites in North County Dublin for development, enabling quick and easy access for people in those areas to access city centre Dublin (30 minute approx journey time).

The Green Line link in has always made a lot of sense given its relative low cost (300m). It means we can finally close properly the level crossings on Dunville Ave and further south, and we don't need to be using the longest Trams in Europe to try and keep up with growth in Southern Dublin, particularly in Cherrywood and Sandyford.

Dart Underground is an entirely separate endeavour, and if you read the other countless threads discussing the topic, it is a project where most folk have very different visions of what purpose it should serve. Is it to establish a high speed RER style metro service, or is it an intercity Irish rail back bone. Given that the cost-benefit of Metrolink has been well established through the countless consultation processes we have been through, it is clear why the NTA has moved forward with it over DU. Its just desperate that we did not do the GL tie in now at the cheapest time, because we decided we were not ready for the grown up decisions regarding the level crossings, or even worse, that the mere existence of these discussions might sink the whole project.

brianc89

Omg people in this thread actually suggesting ditching Metro and going for DU instead.

Are they taking the actual piss or being serious?

Sam Russell

Mod: No more DU talk, as it is off topic.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120827213#Comment_120827213

The Level crossing at Dunville Av will go completley, I assume?

Are there other traffic blocks that would occur as part of ML?

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120827271#Comment_120827271

Serious.

We wont get both projects delivered within 30 years, so not unreasonable to discuss which rail project should be prioritised.

The airport is 9km from O'Connell Bridge. Yes, its embarrasing we dont have a rail link. But to be fair, its a stones throw to the airport from the city centre and a bus is quick enough. Its a nice to have to have that rail link, but i would say connecting central dublin, from Hueston to the Docklands, along a circular line, would better enable the growth of the city centre through increased connectivity.

It would help make the liberties or stoneybatter as accesible as Grafton St and we will need that space as the city grows.

Sure, if we could have both projects delivered over the next 30 years, lets have both. But its one or the other over that time frame, if we are lucky.

So we should be able to prioritise based on what is best for the city overall, not what is best for those that live on the Green Line. (many of whom dont want ML anyway)

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120827924#Comment_120827924

But its one or the other over that time frame, if we are lucky

Exactly, you're right. It's one or the other. However, you seem to not realize that they already made the decision. Metrolink won. It's currently with ABP.

Is that you Frank? Lol

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120828124#Comment_120828124

Lets be honest though. Approved or not. That doesnt mean it will actually be built. How many years has it been spoken about now? 20+ and still not a spade in the ground.

It will be nimbyed into oblivion anyway.

I wouldnt get your hopes up.

Sam Russell

Metrolink is not just a rail link from the airport to the city centre.

It has trip generators all along its length, and will open up large areas to high density housing. We have a serious traffic problem at the airport, and a serious housing problem in Dublin that can only be solved by many more houses being built with rapid access to high capacity public transport.

DAA cannot provide car parking at the moment - none - it is all booked up. Buses cannot get into or out of the place because it is so congested.

It is absolutely nuts that this project gets delayed and delayed. Cars and buses are not a solution to the airport's access.

.

Pete_Cavan

Can we set up a "Metrolink not happening" thread to indulge those who want to promote other projects over it or simply want to write its obituary?

I have said this several times over the past few years, "it'll never happen" contributes nothing to this thread and should be met with a ban.

PopePalpatine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120825419#Comment_120825419

Bold of you to assume that SIMI's useful idiots have thought that far.

marathon2022

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120828300#Comment_120828300

Why? Is there a problem with expressing a valid opinion? I comprehend the reluctance to participate or elucidate reasons for believing in the projects progression and the motives behind those attempting to shape the narrative, whether for political gain or any one of the varied interests. Public (even boards posters) opinion holds significant value, particularly when certain factions within the public planning area would prefer people conveniently overlook their prior failings and lack of authenticity regarding the initiation and implementation of this project in its current and previous form(Metro North).

And now, your desire to impose bans on individuals expressing such opinions? Doesn't that seem rather immature? Considering the lack of substantial updates provided by the various "technical posters", apart from the information filtered through the public bodies overseeing this project who will I suspect(I hope I'm wrong) ultimately abandon this project.

Those who express their frustration with the statement "Metrolink is not happening" are primarily annoyed about its failure rather than as you put it "indulging those who want to promote other projects" which appears absurd.

marno21

Lads Pete has a point here. There is no reason to believe metrolink is in danger atm. Procurement prep is ongoing in the background and the project is awaiting an oral hearing with ABP.

By all means if something comes out that puts the project in jeopardy by all means discuss it but “just because it hasn’t been built before it won’t be built” isn’t really a worthwhile discussion imo.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120828510#Comment_120828510

Yes. Mods, please stop this distracting nonsense about it being in danger. There is absolutely no reason to think this right now.

The government is forecasting 10s of Billions of national surplus. It's extremely likely to progress.

loyatemu

the main danger is from the next election IMO. That's 18 months away so it should be through planning but will there be boots on the ground?

ArcadiaJunction

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120828300#Comment_120828300

A ban for correctly raising cultural and political issues that have resulted in where we are now and these mentalities are still part and parcel of the Irish establishment and body politic. A ban? I think that is very unfair to people raising actual legitimate facts concerning the two-decade-long fiasco we have so far endured.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120829206#Comment_120829206

There is a difference between defining "on and off topic items" and "banning free speech". This is an infrastructure thread, not a thread about the social and political issues of Ireland.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120829206#Comment_120829206

As clearly stated in my post which you quoted, I advocated a ban if the only contribution on offer is equivalent to "it'll never happen". That isn't discussing issues and is just fishing for a reaction and inevitably drags the thread down a route which requires a Mod intervention. That results in thread bans in many forums.

I said another thread can be set up for those who want to discuss cultural and political issues or talk about their own pet project and why it should happen instead. This thread is about a specific project which is progressing through the phases which need to be completed before construction can commence (and even pushing ahead with procurement of certain aspects in the meantime) so talk of it not going ahead clearly isn't relevant.

And you are the one who posted "The Luas to the Airport 'cheaper option' is now officially out there" so unless you have a link from the government or one of it's agencies which states that there is an official Luas to the Airport plan your point about "raising actual legitimate facts" is extremely questionable.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120829178#Comment_120829178

Don't even think there's a danger there, to be honest. We're staring down the barrel of massive fines, the government can be sued over their climate action plan (and already has been successfully sued once already), and every party has committed to tackling climate change.

This will definitely happen. Extremely confident about it.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120829747#Comment_120829747

Sinn Fein haven't committed to tackling climate change.

From public transport projects to carbon tax to agricultural emissions to excise duty on fuels, Sinn Fein has played fast and loose with climate change.

Sierra Oscar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120827924#Comment_120827924

I think it has been well established at this stage of the discussion that Metrolink is about much more than just bringing a rail connection from the airport to the city centre.

Its major benefit is that it connects large swathes of built up areas that are currently poorly served by public transport to the city centre, especially Swords. It will open up the entirety of North County Dublin to the use of reliable public transport through the presence of a large park and ride facility on the outskirts of Swords, preventing the need for people to commute into the city using their cars. This will have a significant positive knock on impact on the reliability of the bus network. Currently it takes well over an hour for a bus to travel from Swords to the city centre during peak times. The 41C can take well over 90 minutes. It should never be the case that driving into the city centre is quicker than getting the bus as is the case now.

The rail link from Heuston to the Docklands will be nice to have when we eventually get it, but there is a reason the NTA and Government is prioritising Metrolink. The fact of the matter is that there are already numerous public transport options available to get from Heuston to various locations in the city centre, including the Luas.

Let's not try and gloss over the actual benefits of Metrolink when discussing the pros and cons of it. It is about much more than a rail link to the airport. In anycase, the project appears to be powering ahead regardless. The debate over whether it will happen seems a bit pointless.

AngryLips

We've learned nothing from the Metro North fiasco if there's folk going round saying that there's zero risk of Metrolink not getting completed. Let's not forget, we still haven't made up loss ground on Metrolink versus where we were when Metro North got canned.

prunudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120829178#Comment_120829178

We've far more to fear in the country than just Metrolink being canned if the current opinion polls are anything to go by.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120829178#Comment_120829178

It could be through ABP but will more than likely be subject to a JR or multiple consecutive JR’s (is that even possible?)

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120830029#Comment_120830029

that's a conversation for the Politics forum (if you can bear to go there) but I think they would definitely cancel ML if it suited their aims; there's no great political capital for them in it, it's a FFG project through and through. It would be more difficult to can if work had started but that seems optimistic at this remove.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120829747#Comment_120829747

Jesus I hope this post doesn’t come back to bite you.

I really hope this is built but I am far from confident in this planning process and the motivation of certain groups to go all the way to the EU courts to see this dead in the water.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120829814#Comment_120829814

This is simply false. The current Metrolink project is far more progressed. They've started advance planning and have tendered multiple elements of required advanced works.

MJohnston

A meta-comment about politics:

If a political party hasn't promised to cancel Metrolink in their manifestos, and didn't promise it even slightly in the relatively recent general election, then I don't understand the leap of logic to think that they will somehow do it if they get elected, which would be absolutely the least politically advantageous time to do it.

What would that gain them?

Is there some misguided notion that Sinn Fein don't care about votes in the capital?

prunudo

Whats a meta-comment? Is that a new buzz word?

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120830133#Comment_120830133

Nonsense fear mongering about what might happen if you don't vote right.

Its not just Dublin voters who want Metrolink to get built - it will be a massive boost to anyone who has to visit the capital too.

Not to mention if we cannot build a metro in the largest city in the country, there isnt a hope of any infrastructure being delivered outside the capital either.

Is there any evidence to back up the notion that ML is in danger? Opinion polls? TD statements about their future intent? Manifestos etc?

Even a severe recession will not see it canned as lessons have been learned from last time that cutting crucial infrastructure spending and fiscal austerity in times of already high unemployment is not a good approach.

MJohnston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120830234#Comment_120830234

My comment ended up not really being meta at all. I was originally going for a hypothetical, non-specific example and ended up not doing that 😅

Meta-commentary tends to mean something that references the commentary on a topic, rather than the topic itself.

MJohnston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120830238#Comment_120830238

I think you could probably locate a few political voices who are against Metrolink in its entirety, probably your Healy-Rae types.

And you can probably find a few voices who take the "I support Metrolink but it would be better if..." approach, which is opaque in terms of their actual support.

And then there's Sinn Fein who have publicly said "We support Metrolink, but we don't trust FFG to not let the costs overrun" as well as "We support Metrolink, and we think similar amounts should be spent on infrastructure in the west of the country". Neither of those statements seem in any way like they're not wanting ML to be built.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120830093#Comment_120830093

The fact is that MN had a railway order and ML does not.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120831026#Comment_120831026

And Metro Link has advanced planning and tendering ongoing, far ahead of Metro North. Metro Link will get it's Railway Order and works will be ready to hit the ground.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120830686#Comment_120830686

A SF/rural independents hook-up would cause real fear for the future of Metrolink.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120831299#Comment_120831299

Indeed.

Prioritise the funds for social welfare recipients and roads down the west.

MJohnston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120831299#Comment_120831299

Without getting into the politics of it all, that doesn't seem compatible to me. FFG have been in an ersatz coalition with the rural independents for years, and that fits more in my mind.

Anyway, if there's a SF government, that means that there's probably enough SD, Lab, and Green TDs around to not need the rurals.

Sam Russell

Mod: I have tried to keep this thread on topic but appear to have failed. I am tempted to just delete all the off topic posts, but that smacks of censorship.

Look, if you want to diss Metrolink, start a new thread, while think of hitting delete.

citizen6

Can anyone explain to me how we got from a cost of 2-3 billion up to 9.5 billion?

And will it still pass public spending code/cost benefit analysis at 9.5?

I think the biggest threat to the project is uncertainty around the cost. And the lazy politics of how many schools/hospitals could be built for the same money.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120872625#Comment_120872625

If the €2 - 3bn is from the old Metro North that was never realistic and it would have actually cost far more had it proceeded. The Metrolink estimate is obviously far more robust. It is prepared at a time of higher costs generally plus labour shortages, and also factors in lots of inflation for a decade ahead. If anything, I'd say Metrolink is over-estimated but we need to see how things play out. Tendering it will cost peanuts at this stage so the final decision will be made on actual costs.

The Business Case should be fine, every year its not built costs Dublin (and by extension, the country) a fortune in lost productivity and adds to labour issues as people can't access jobs in other areas as freely as they should. Metrolink will also help with the housing shortage and we have climate targets to achieve which we are currently failing to do. There is a large sunk cost already so not proceeding burns that and money doesn't necessarily become available for schools/hospitals instead. Not building Metrolink will cost far more than building it.

Sam Russell

We have the money to build it - surplus in the coffers now.

Unfortunately speculation about huge costs allows those bidding to build it to put in hope value into the submission. Not a clever strategy for Irish interests.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120874208#Comment_120874208

Lack of adequate public transport and adequate housing is costing the state and the economy more than that every year in lost foreign investment. We lost brexit exodous business hand over fist to Amsterdam, Luxembourg and even Portugal for exactly that reason. Small countries have to remain competitive in a globalised world.