Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

tom1ie

I’m afraid to ask but where is this project now.

Are we with ABP yet?

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120790723#Comment_120790723

Yes, as is DART+ West, DART+ Southwest, and 9 of the 12 Core Bus Corridors.

Murph85

They talk nonstop about sustainability, yet the m50 is an ocean of traffic .... yet this probably won't get built... nothing hut stall and delay tactics. Tunbridge fee euro headlime newshound, government decisions to cost the Irish raxpayer billions of euro in delaying infrastructure projects? Not a word about it..

how many public consultation will there be on the colour of the metro carriages?

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120790746#Comment_120790746

Thanks.

Any idea of decision date from ABP?

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120790942#Comment_120790942

None whatsoever - they’ve a big backlog,

marno21

Ivan Yates said on radio during the week he heard from TII that they’re anticipating the oral hearing in Spring 2024.

The positive is that TII seem to be full steam ahead with procurement in the background so shouldn’t be any delays once it’s approved

Sam Russell

Once it gets built, it will be an instant success.

There will be calls for Metrolinks for every parish in the country, and every city will demand one right away.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120790987#Comment_120790987

It’s a pity they didn’t see this backlog coming and resource ABP appropriately to reduce the backlog or god forbid actually speed up the process!

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120790667#Comment_120790667

Yeah it's very shortsighted to finish it in Charlemont.

We should think about what the city and transport and human work and behavior will be like in 50 years.

Most of the development land in the city center is about to be used up.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120791104#Comment_120791104

We need to just get on with it now and get the damn thing built.

Repeatedly redesigning it means more time lost.

marno21

In fairness, Seamus Brennan wanted a Swords to Shanganagh metro. Along the Harcourt line from Charlemont to where it met the current Rosslare line.

The current Minister for Transport was against the natural southside routing in favour of some pie in the sky crayon drawings so we have to do with what we have now.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120791186#Comment_120791186

Yeah I know.

I actually think it'll be great for the city and will definitely be built this time.

I don't foresee a huge crash coming in next few years and we've plenty of money for it.

I think it'll do wonders for Ballymun and to the area just north of it.

I can see loads of apartments going up and lots of young professionals moving in to Ballymun and other amenities will follow.

marathon2022

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120790704#Comment_120790704

I have actively engaged with relevant authorities, politicians, and stakeholders over the past decade regarding the Metrolink infrastructure project in Dublin. I hold reservations about its prospects for realization. It appears that Minister Ryan, the leader of the Green Party and a member of the government, is actively attempting to impede the project's progress. His public statements, including those on social media platforms such as Twitter, indicate a potential inclination towards delay.

Considering the Green Party's positioning as advocates for public and sustainable transport, their lack of support raises concerns about the project's future. In light of the high projected costs, which are expected to make it the most expensive infrastructure undertaking in Irish history, the question arises as to whether other political parties, such as Fianna Fáil (FF) or Fine Gael (FG), will prioritize its advancement. The track record of these parties, particularly in the context of the controversial handling of the children's hospital project, adds to the skepticism surrounding their commitment to executing large-scale initiatives successfully.

While I hold strong reservations about Sinn Féin (SF), encompassing their policies and leadership, they appear(still unlikely but less so than the others) to be the only viable alternative for advancing the Metrolink project. It is important to acknowledge that this conclusion stems from a practical assessment rather than an endorsement of SF's political ideology or approach. Unfortunately, given the socio-economic demographics of North County Dublin, characterized as a working-class area, it is unlikely that we will receive the backing of mainstream media outlets such as the Irish Times.

In summary, despite my personal biases and concerns regarding various political entities, the realization of the Metrolink project hinges on navigating political landscapes, garnering support from key stakeholders, and ensuring adequate funding.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120790678#Comment_120790678

Where has he been angling for a delay?

He was acting the massive bollix before he was in govt about the metro, but I think he's been fine since.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120791552#Comment_120791552

SF are overwhelmingly more likely to can the project than the current govt - my fervent hope is that construction has started before the next election. I have no idea what you are basing this on - SF would stop the entire project as a stupid sop to the tenants of the Markievicz apartments in a heartbeat. I'd be worried no matter what the makeup is tbh, I really hope this gets a greenlight before we have to worry about political change.

marathon2022

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120791621#Comment_120791621

It is apparent from the tweets mentioned that the individual in question is strongly emphasizing and advocating for extensive modifications that cater to the southern section. Such a focus raises concerns about potential delays and a probable halt to the project. As a prominent figure in the Green Party and a member of the government, it would have been expected that they had proactively addressed these matters earlier, prior to the current stage of development. Reading between the lines, it appears that the Green Party's commitment to infrastructure and the greater good has shifted, now primarily favoring their own district or parish

https://twitter.com/EamonRyan/status/1102632305003237381

Trust in parties such as FF and FG is minimal, given their history of deception over many years. However, when a party claims to prioritize the welfare of the citizens and yet fails to actively work towards achieving positive outcomes, it becomes a significant concern. And the SF shitshow doesn't bode well either.

As a quick reminder -The Metro North project in Dublin was first proposed and officially announced by the Irish government in 2005. At that time, it was identified as a key transportation infrastructure project to address the increasing demand for public transportation in the city and improve connectivity to Dublin Airport and the northern suburbs. The initial plans included a new metro line extending from the city center to Swords, with multiple stops along the route. Since then Luas Green, red and cross city have been built and are working and still this so called green party leader still wants his cheese for his southside constituents. Hopefully when the Green TD for north county Dublin, the Fingal hide and seek champion 2020 to 2023 get removed they might take the northside more seriously.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120791769#Comment_120791769

Yes, he was acting the bollocks before he was in government with his stupid crayon drawings.

He's done nothing much but quietly (if frustratingly slowly at times) progress the project since. Share something since he was in government, and ideally in the last year or two, if you want to be taken seriously.

marathon2022

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120791822#Comment_120791822

I hope your right. Personally I am less convinced -The Green Party's participation in the government from 2007 to 2011 and 2020 to 2023 provided them with opportunities to influence policies and advocate for their priorities, including the Metro North(metrolink) project which is exactly what they were voted in for, both times they got into bed with dogs and in order to swallow this bitter pill the hope was they would do some good. And yet here we are, two randomers talking dreams. No Metro in any form for the northside.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120791877#Comment_120791877

What are you on about? Metrolink has been submitted to ABP for approval. The plans pass almost exclusively through the Northside.

Murph85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120791235#Comment_120791235

Seamus brennan was possibly the only politician in recent decades that I had any respect for...

marathon2022

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120792143#Comment_120792143

Metro North obtained planning permission from AN BORD PLEANÁLA in 2011, but after 12 years, no Journeys have been accomplished on the intended route. If we consider the adage "history repeats itself," and as I am feeling particularly insightful today I predict that ABP will announce planning approval around the time the next election is announced, and unfortunately, MetroLink will face a similar fate as Metro North, due to a sequence of unfortunate events.

Murph85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120791877#Comment_120791877

145,000 cars a day on the m50... all the greens are interested in is doing stuff that annoys people, not giving people a chance to get off the m50 etc with a viable alternative. The emissions the m50 facilitates must be staggering...

Murph85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120791186#Comment_120791186

But the next iteration of it will be the perfect one.. zero objections, zero compromises etc... they must just be choosing to ignore ilthat option now... LOL!

marathon2022

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120792534#Comment_120792534

Yes, unfortunately, I agree with you. There seems to be a significant lack of proper planning to accommodate car drivers. I personally experience this issue as well. I reside in Swords and commute to Citywest. The journey takes me only 30 minutes by car at 6 am, whereas using public transport would extend the travel time to a whopping 2 hours. This is a common story among many commuters, and it highlights why any delay in enhancing public transport before restricting car usage can be counterproductive. From a personal standpoint, I initially believed that the green party, once in power, would vigorously push for these upgrades. However, it appears that their effectiveness has been compromised due to weak leadership and ineffective communication, resulting in a decline in public support for sustainability efforts.

jiminho

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120765286#Comment_120765286

Small country logic. Ah shure we’ll be grand with busses, or maybe everyone could just hop on a bike - everyone will be driving in the future anyway. By the time the scheme is complete, the population of Dublin will be up near 2M and the annual ridership through Dublin airport will be past 40M. These are big city numbers and we need a public transportation system that can facility growth, not impede it.

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120791769#Comment_120791769

Says it all. Himself there putting obstacles in MetroLink’s progression to appease local NIMBYs in his constituency and blaming it on Fine Gael road spending.

If he spent half the time he spends on his obsession with roads and obstructing him on actually working on public transport development we might be in a better place.

KrisW1001

Ryan was following the advice of the independent review on Metro North. The original plan to replace Luas Green with Metro was found to be a waste of money, with no significant increase in service provision compared to simply running more trams on the existing Luas, but knock-on costs due to collapse of ridership on the section of Luas Green line between Stephen's Green and Charlemont. It was a bad use of scarce public money.

This pointless replacement of an existing service was a long-standing criticism of the original Metro routing. Ryan's failure was not that he cancelled it, but that he has failed to start any planning for a better alignment to extend Metro once it gets going, because as soon as it's in service, those NIMBYs will shut up and the public will demand an extension and a second line.

Podge_irl

What "independent review"?

The Green line upgrade was an exceptionally cheap means of quadrupling capacity. It will also almost inevitably happen at some point as the green line will remain deeply oversubscribed.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120794992#Comment_120794992

I don't know of any review that came to this conclusion, and every scrap of info related to Metrolink has been picked over in great detail on this thread.

While I disagreed with Ryan's crayon drawing of potential routes, once he's been minister, he has done everything needed to advance the project, even shooting down talk of other routes. It's not his fault that our legal and planning system is set up to delay everything.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120795275#Comment_120795275

This - I would agree with you.

Since he’s been Minister almost every single project has progressed to ABP.

The vast majority of the delays have been down to unrealistic timelines by the NTA and indeed in Metrolink’s case the discovery of the sewer at the Grand Canal that meant a redesign.

Goldengirl

Great informative thread. Thank you all .

I have been 'waiting for metro' to come along since the mid 00s and , waited and waited on buses , in traffic when I tried Park and Ride , have had 3 bikes stolen and 2 knocks off same, ending up in hospital , all while trying to commute to work in a busy city hospital . Arriving late, sweaty and harassed most shifts :)

Am now finished with that thankfully, but am angry that my children are now doing the same commute to college and work in an increasingly difficult city to traverse .

Metrolink North and then South needs to be prioritised by whatever government is in power .

Our city is crumbling from cars and buses and expecting people to cycle in the rain or wind to work is just pandering to a minority as I think everyone here agrees , so I am preaching to the converted apologies.

I agree with the 'push it through and fvck the begrudgers at this stage 'rhetoric . Its way past time to bite the bullet and get it done , and perfection appears to be the enemy of the good at this stage .

Tweaks to perfect can be done afterwards .

My abiding memory of travelling the Tube in London to work was the continuous upgrade works all year round , which meant you might have to walk five or ten minutes extra if your underground stop was one of the stations being fixed.

It was still 100 times better than driving , and people just got on with it because the service was so reliable .

Which nothing is here , no matter what we have been promised with buses , Luas etc.

One more point ..we need a dedicated rail and bus transport police . There are a lot of issues on certain Luas and bus routes , and Dart as well and it would be a shame if those troublemakers were allowed to wreck the Metro as well .

LuckyLloyd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120794992#Comment_120794992

This nonsense has been debunked repeatedly. The Green Line, as constructed, will run out of capacity within the next decade due to the increase in demand and approved building projects along the catchment area. The upgrade to Metro would have future-proofed capacity for decades to come. NIMBYs advanced spurious arguments in and around the Ranelagh area, including numerous public appearances by Micheal McDowell, who never once disclosed that the route and works draft would have involved CPO'ing a small portion of his back garden.

Minister Ryan actively worked to frustrate and cancel the project with fanciful and unrealistic routes that lacked a business case.

You'll have to link me to the "independent review" you cite. I don't believe it exists or that it was truly "independent" and unbiased if it does.

marno21

It doesn’t get noted enough that we have a section of (mostly) grade separated heavy rail line between Charlemont and Sandyford that currently is heavily restricted by the fact that any service running along it also has to be compatible with running through busy streets to the north of there.

The lack of capacity utilisation along Charlemont-Sandyford is criminal. One of the few decent rail corridors in the city ready made for mass transit and it’s used for trams.

Metro South as outlined in 2016 was a no brainer. Instead now there will be a mess at Charlemont for the forseeable.

LuckyLloyd

Killing Metro South was an absolute masterwork of NIMBYism. I had to explain to countless friends that the ‘we’ll lose the LUAS claims’ were completely fraudulent. Wealthy property owners can really achieve nothing when they are determined to do so

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120796579#Comment_120796579

what would have been the difference between metro south and the Green Luas line?

salmocab

We need to stop using nimby for any objection it’s ridiculous, plenty of people that would have objected at beechwood for instance had real objections. If a road they use regularly is closed off and the alternative will add to their journey then it’s a real objection. Now it shouldn’t be enough to stop a project like this but some objections are legitimate and they are now dismissed as nimby which really just kills any debate.

cson

Ultimately the needs of the many >needs of the few.

Coyote

most people on this thread only want a metro built and that's fine, and I agree that it should be built but the people who will be affected by the years of building work, being forced to move out for years, houses being threatened to be demolished they have a right to object. and then having to living with the affect of the noise and traffic for the rest of their lives. the current design is not what the engineers wanted having a terminal of a metro line in a suburbia street.

what most people don't remember was that the engineers wanted to do was tie in at Cowper or even better was to tie in at Milltown

you can see both options 7 and 8 in http://data.tii.ie/metrolink/alignment-options-study/study-2/metrolink-1-gl-tie-in-options-appraisal-report.pdf

pages 32-34

this was listed as the best option by the engineers with only cost as a downside, but was dismissed by politicians as it would have cost an extra 366 million and they were trying to save money, then the cheaper/worse option was picked to try and tie in just after the canal, which was never going to work due to the sewers depth at the canal and the fact that all the work on the Luas line would close the Luas for 4 years that's why the tie in got canceled, no politician wanted to cut the green line for 4 years, so they canceled the tie in.

what they should have done was commit to the original tie in which would not have blocked off Beachwood ave, force the building of a terminal at Dartmouth road, had a metro that ran north to south and would could have been build without the Luas being offline for years, a month or two maybe. but hey we saved 366 million but now wont' have a connected metro and probably spend more than that on trying to make a bad idea work.

ArcadiaJunction

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120791633#Comment_120791633

If Sinn Fein get into government you can kiss not only the metro but all the DART+ projects goodbye. Ironically they will bring their British Backwater Mentality that 'buses are enough' into government with them.

AngryLips

If the plan is to extend metro south by converting Green line ...why isn't there a plan to extend the Luas green line south elsewhere in the southside once the existing green line south of Charlemont gets taken over by metro?

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120796956#Comment_120796956

Charlemont being the terminus is irrelevant in that the same scale of work is required there whether it is the terminus or not. The engineers wanted the tie-in further south due to wider operational and general capacity reasons, not purely to avoid a terminus at Charlemont. Which houses are being threatened to be demolished?

An online tie-in with the Green Line was going to be hugely disruptive so it was dropped and the 'Green Luas capacity enhancement' thing was introduced in order to avoid greater opposition to Metrolink. It was a good strategy for now but the nettle that is the Green Line between Ranelagh and Sandyford will have to be grasped later. Once MetroLink opens and the Green Line is operating way beyond capacity, it should become much easier to do so.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120795507#Comment_120795507

Would you not say that instead of unrealistic times scales being the issue it’s the woefully under resourced ABP that is the issue.

This falls to (as I understand it) the housing minister, Dara o brien, to resource.

Surely that ministerial department should have seen the amount of infrastructure coming down the tracks (pun intended 😂) and acted Accordingly.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120791552#Comment_120791552

A nonsensical party political broadcast on behalf of Sinn Fein.

You can be certain of one thing if Sinn Fein get into government - there will be cancellation of infrastructure projects so that their promises on welfare spending can be delivered. If Metrolink or DART+ survive the SF cancellations, I will be amazed.

LuckyLloyd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120796724#Comment_120796724

It gets labelled as NIMBY in a negative sense when the people are so annoyed that they won't be able to use a road / will be disrupted due to necessary major infrastructure works in their area, that they start spreading misinformation and/or making public appearances without declaring their interest.

The debate in a broader sense is about the economic necessity for major infrastructure links through leafy well-to-do areas like Ranelagh or Glasnevin so we can ferry large volumes of commuters from further reaches of North and South Dublin. It's the same debate we're going through around the redevelopment of the old Dundrum shopping centre (including blackmailing developers not to take up objections, in that case). Economically, we need this to future-proof our ability to attract and maintain foreign investment.

So sure, we can debate the right of property owners to resist change in their broader area, and the limit of their right for things to stay the same forever as pitched against the economic realities of a major capital city grinding to a halt. I think I know which side of that argument wins, as do the residents of Beechwood. And so, the debate becomes a cynical canard of bad faith arguing against the value of a Metro with endless crayon drawings of "superior" alternative routes and spook stories of stranded commuters without a way into work for years upon years while tax payer money is squandered building the thing.

Who is killing the debate here?

Coyote

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120797820#Comment_120797820

In the scale of a project it's not a lot but then they should have done it right by gong to Milltown, on a local scale of the work is not the same it's 10x times the work of building a station with one exit and continuing on to the next station compared to building the terminal there now requires 1km of extra tunnel to the south for turn around, a extra safety tunnel to built along side the 1km, this has to be build without a TBM. the site work for the station is literately 3 times the size requiring piling down 100 feet, you can see the difference in size required from the original drawing of the station to the new 3 times larger station with multi exit due to everyone having to disembark, building taxi ranks and bus drop off and all of this on a residential street.

did you read the document it literately states "There will be minor disruption to Luas services during tie-in works" for options 7-8 all the other option listed were the ones that say large disruption, and option 4b which was what they picked required the demolish of 32-33 Dartmouth road along with a open trench and removing the embankment and rebuilding it along with closing a number of roads. this was the cheapest option but also the worse, this was also the "chosen" option for over two years even tho anyone who knows the area knew it would not work given the disruption it would cause and the main sewers running beside the canal and trying to make a train clime a grade of 6-7%

if you look at option 8 99% of the work can be completed to the side of the Luas track and then just tie in at ground level. see how the Japaneses switched a above ground to underground in 3.5 hours

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIbZqqLra9k

now there is other major issues all station platforms would need to be adjusted for the new train height so I'm not saying it's easy but we are where are today because they tried to cut costs, then got push back from the public about having to close the Luas to rebuild the embankment which is what would have taken a number of years, the tie in of the Milltown connection could have been done in a month or two.

the extension of the Luas trams was not a good strategy it was a short term fix that everyone knew would not last and only delayed what needs to be done (I'm not saying it should not have been done just not a long term solution). a good strategy is building something to meet the needs for 20+ years. There would have been less opposition if they had continued to Milltown as only the School would have been affected no roads closed and not building a terminal with all it's associated anti social implications like 30,000-40,000+ a people a day coming out on a residential street, with taxi, buses and other things.

some people on boards calling people nimby is unfair as many people support the build of the Metro but also see that the design is not the result of good planning but of politicians trying to cut costs and then when that backfired on them canceling the line south forcing a terminal to be build in a residential street with poor links compared to the original plan to run all the way south.

as a example the Abbey Theatre and other places in town they made changes to the sound/vibration noise of the tunnel build but did not make the same plans for residents who live closer to the metro so they are just expected to live with that noise/vibration to save cost. imagine if the GAA said they wanted to use 40,000 seats of Croke Park 365 days of the year and no one should have any issue with it or ask for any changes. or Tesco building a huge supermarket in the middle of a suburbia estate you think the locals should not have a say.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120797908#Comment_120797908

I'm referring to all of the deadlines missed prior to getting this and other projects to ABP. Every one of them has been spectacularly missed.

salmocab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120799281#Comment_120799281

Well I’d argue you are, I said that some objections are legitimate and they are. We are at a stage where every objection gets called nimby and it’s just not true. Some people have real objections to things that doesn’t make them a nimby. It begins to lose its meaning when it’s used like this, the same way as people used cancel culture and it has effectively become meaningless.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120799413#Comment_120799413

I find it quiet hard to follow what you are saying here, but if saying that building a terminus station at Charlemont is more disruptive than extending the tunnel further, building another underground station, creating a tunnel portal and tying into the existing Green Line, plus upgrading the Green Line to Metro, then you are wrong.

Maybe it would be a little less disruptive for you (I assume from your post that you live near the Charlemont stop) but it would be a lot more disruptive for a lot more people. Things like a taxi rank or bus stops aren't limited to terminus stops so these likely would happen regardless.

Upgrading the Green Line was going to kill Metrolink so it was dropped. It can still happen later and hopefully the quality of service from Metrolink and the awkwardness in accessing it will hopefully mean in future, Green Line residents will accept short-term pain for the long-term gain of having Metrolink run from Swords to Sandyford.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120799236#Comment_120799236

What additional Social spending are SF planning? Are we talking more direct investment into the actual building of social housing?

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120799281#Comment_120799281

What is the value of Metro South over and above the Green Line Luas though?

How much extra capacity would Metro South deliver vs the Green Line Luas with extended operaring hours and frequency?

Genuine question.

I understand connectivity to the airport,but to be honest, its quick enough to be bussed or drive up to the airport and the Green Line Luas already gives very fast and reliable service into the city centre & anywhere along the line itself.

I am not seeing any great demand for people from Sandyford or Cherrywood to goto Santry or Swords. So what are people living along the Green line getting over and above what they already have, other than airport access which isnt a priority because its so close to the city anyway.

DART underground i can see huge value in, but given that we only have 2 Luas lines, it seems wasteful to focus on a rail project that overlaps one of those 2 lines, as opposed to building a new luas or underground line through an area not currently served by same.