Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

Peregrine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118578133#Comment_118578133

MetroLink, DART+ West, DART+ South West and all 12 BusConnects corridors will be submitted within months from each other.

Does that €88 million include the funds that were well spent on Metro North in the first place as well?

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118578508#Comment_118578508

No that’s just MetroLink/New Metro North (2015-now).

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118577514#Comment_118577514

Many thanks for that.

Do we know what actually happens in the ABP process?

Is it that metro link lands on johnnys desk on Jan 1st and his team or himself have to go through every station and tunnel straight and look at the Enviromental impact of each thing?

Are ABP basically checking that TII aren’t breaking any planning or Enviromental laws, so that metro link would stand up in court?

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118578133#Comment_118578133

Bus connects, Luas lines

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118578133#Comment_118578133

SHDs aren’t winding down just yet, there’s another few months of them coming down the line and there’s lots of them getting in before the deadline. Once SHDs go back to the councils tho a lot of them will end up being appealed to ABP anyway but there should be less work involved with just appeals.

These cases are getting more complex also which increases their size and the length of time they spend there.

specialbyte

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118578643#Comment_118578643

The ABP process is a long one for a project of this scale. Here's a flavour of what's involved.

It starts with the statutory public consultation period (6-10 weeks) where the public can make observations (commonly known as objections – but not always negative).

The inspector(s) will then start reading through the application documentation (likely to be 1500+ dense pages, 100s of drawings and other documents) and the observations from the public. They will then start trying to make a determination on the application. They will examine the whole project in relation to project need, does it comply with public policy etc. Then they will examine all of the chapters of the Environmental Impact Assessment Report (EIAR) such as soil, air, noise, human health etc. To see if the projects compiles with Irish and EU environmental law. They will also categorise all of the issues raised by the public and decide if the issue is addressed in the submitted documentation.

During this whole process the inspector(s) might decide that they don't have enough information in front of them to make a decision. There might be issues raised by the public that aren't adequately covered by the materials submitted by TII. This is extremely likely given the scale of the project. Then ABP will ask TII for "further information" on particular topics. TII will then need weeks/months to gather this new data, then put it on public display again, more public comment and ABP inspector(s) will keep trudging through the documentation.

At this point ABP will likely hold an oral hearing. This is an in-person event where people can ask further questions of TII. TII can present more documentation at this point to help address questions raised by the public here too. At the GCRR oral hearing TII/ARUP made concessions to win over objectors like NUIG by making changes to the project.

ABP will then take all of this (original application, public comments, further information, comments on further information, oral hearing record) to come up with the final decision. The inspector(s) report will need to discuss all issues raised in the project in some detail and provide clear reasons why each element is accepted or rejected. If an element is rejected they will provide a recommendation for the remedy (reject the project, attach condition, alter the project etc)

The inspector's report is only a recommendation to the board. They need to read the report to make a decision. This board's decision order (the legal authorisation) needs to include clear reasons for its decision (it's a core element of our common law system – missing reasons a common cause for judicial review victories against ABP). The order normally agrees with the inspector(s) recommendation and where it differs the board need to provide clear reasons why they disagree with the recommendation.

All of this is likely to be checked by ABP's in-house legal council to make sure that the whole process undertaken by ABP and ABP's decision complies with Irish and EU law. Then a decision can be announced. (Then there's the potential for judicial review)

I've simplified things dramatically (and omitted steps) but those are the main elements that go into making a decision. It's not surprising then that this can take years.

yer man!

And this is the second time a Metro in Dublin will have gone through this entire process correct?

specialbyte

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118579093#Comment_118579093

Yes. ABP granted permission to the old Metro North scheme in October 2011. Though it never advanced further because of the economic situation. Worth noting that while it was for a broadly similar project (metro from swords to airport to city centre) it is not the same design as MetroLink, which takes a different route to connect with the DART+ lines in the city centre and uses a fully automated train. This old permission was also granted under the old EU environmental laws so we can't just re-submit the same application again today.

Frustratingly, the planning permission for Metro North granted in 2011 was valid for up to 10 years. So in theory, instead of re-designing Metro North with a slightly different route as the MetroLink project in 2018, we could have just building the old Metro North project.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118579333#Comment_118579333

Yeah but then fewer of the people who matter in this country would have gotten paid for a fruitless endeavour.

specialbyte

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118579336#Comment_118579336

Yeah the engineering, law, planning and surveying consultancy firms have done very well out of the endless planning cycles on this project (and many other major public transport projects in Dublin). Though as an engineer that doesn't work in civil engineering, I get most of the enjoyment from my work by seeing projects I've designed actually get built. I don't know how the civil engineers who work on railway infrastructure in this country handle endless years of producing pretty detailed designs that never get built.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118579348#Comment_118579348

Would there be many? Like where would they have been trained and practiced etc.? Since we've barely built anything in a century. Would have thought consultancies would get people in and take a nice big percentage for themselves.

I also would have assumed the majority of the money goes towards legal nonsense and "compliance" at every step of the way.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118578674#Comment_118578674

There’s another few months before Metrolink lands at ABP, by which time the SHDs will be all but complete. There will likely be a drop off in large housing applications now that a huge volume has already gone through the SHD process and there was a rush to get in before it closed. Between fewer applications and having to go through LAs first, there should be good resources freed up at ABP for H2 this year and beyond.

https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2022/0204/1277762-donabate/

Just since SHDs were mentioned. So does this mean that they're just going to reach a decision after the statutory time? They say it won't be grounds to appeal but then, they would say that.

It's OK though, the state will fine the state for the state not doing what the state was meant to do.

Cookiemunster

That shouldn't even be news. It happens all the time as ABP are seriously understaffed for the level of work they have. And ABP didn't 'announce' anything. As the article then says, letters were sent to all relevant parties were notified by letter, which is standard practice.

DoctorPan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118579348#Comment_118579348

Simple really, we cut it up with doing international projects and look at them being constructed and operating when we feel down over our Irish projects going nowhere.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118579361#Comment_118579361

My current employer is a massive international consultant and we have a dedicated rail team in our Dublin office, we work on international jobs all over the world, from HS2 to CrossRail 2 and other international jobs. I've done LRT projects in Canada and Denmark, heavy rail in Canada, before working on DART +

Massive shortage of trained rail engineers atm so most consultancies have their own dedicated teams so not to waste time setting up teams, hiring and getting engineers onboarded with standards and the like.

specialbyte

DoctorPlan you're the hero we need even if you're not the hero we deserve given how often we cancel our own rail plans. Good luck to you and the design teams on DART+. We're all rooting for you.

embraer170

I sometimes feel infrastructure development happens at a glacial pace in Germany, but it is really lightning fast compared to the Dublin metro.

It is not like Dublin suddenly discovered the need for a metro or a rail connection to the airport. It has been obvious for decades.

Meanwhile, even relatively minor/mid-sized airports in other European countries are gaining newly build tram/rail/metro connections.

Depressing to watch.

cgcsb

It's probably not so bad though. If we don't build a metro then we need to get serious on cars, have a highly restricted access only arrangement inside the canals with no parking plus an extensive surface transport network, all the bus connects corridors converted to luas. Sure a Swords luas wouldn't be as fast or flashy but better than nothing. The big issue is capacity for growth, what do we do when the luas lines hit their capacity.

Zurich has this approach but its smaller and a lot less vibrant than Dublin with much smaller growth prospects.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118579336#Comment_118579336

I don't know how flippant/serious this is supposed to be, but its worth noting that this is absolutely not why the metro was redesigned. Metrolink is a better piece of infrastructure than Metro North.

Course, this won't matter if its never built, but I'm not sure dusting off the old planning permission and ploughing ahead would have been the right call. Though the more delays go on the less sure I am of that.

spacetweek

I must say, the 2035 opening date is not credible. I know that giving any opening date at this stage is aspirational, but the idea that the opening year could go from 2027 to 2030 to 2032 to 2035 in just 4 years really just shows that they've no idea how long this will take.

That means that it could go either way. It could end up hitting issues or difficulties that endlessly push it out (like the Thessaloniki Metro or Crossrail). Or TII could go ahead with procuring while waiting for planning permission and, after replacing Peter Walsh with someone better able to bash heads together, they speed up construction or get an interim version open early and it ends up being delivered sooner than we expected.

The Taoiseach should really be intervening after that sh*tshow of a PAC.

So it's still all up in the air. I will not believe this until there are holes being dug in the ground and looks like that's still years away.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118585998#Comment_118585998

How is Metrolink in any way a better concept than Metro North? It is basically a bait and switch of the original Metro North to push out the timeline for a metro connection to Swords and the airport. It was sold as better because it was meant to run from Sandyford to Swords, but instead it's only running as far as the original Metro North but with the added bonus of a massively delayed timeline versus the original proposal. The only difference is that it interchanges with Maynooth line at a different location. Honestly, giving up on Metro North was the biggest single public transport policy mistake in this country this century.

Murph85

Metro north if started in 2011, would likely have come in at what? one quarter to one fifth the price of this Dublin metro fantasy?

Zebra3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118587521#Comment_118587521

Isn’t the big difference that it connects with the Maynooth line and the southwest line?

embraer170

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118587521#Comment_118587521

100% agree with you.

Metro North was not perfect, but something imperfect delivered 10-15 years earlier at a substantially lower cost would have been better than the current situation. A transport system is not a one time shot at the moon, but something that evolves and develops over time. We are still using the very imperfect Paris metro line first opened 121 years ago.

I know quite a few frequently travellers who don't seem to care enough, and accept that Dublin's airport transport infrastructure will be worse than just about any other European airport they travel through. If they are not willing to try to hold the decision makers accountable, who will?

DAA also doesn't seem to add much to the debate either. The latest bus connection tender has led a less good city bus connection than before (COVID might contribute to that too). The long distance coach station and hotel transfer situation is farcical.

I was a kid when serious discussions about a rail connection to the airport started (and discussed in Aer Rianta documents). I will likely be retired by the time there is one (and I am not even sure of that). In that time, the country built 100s of km of motorway and keeps investing in roads. Something is wrong somewhere.

CatInABox

While I'd much prefer to sitting on a Metro North tram right now, there's absolutely zero doubt that Metrolink is the better solution. As Zebra3 said, MetroNorth only met with one line at Drumcondra, while Metrolink will met with two. Even worse than that, MetroNorth had absolutely no interchange with the Dart in the city centre. It required another mega project to have Dart access.

There's also a vast improvement with constructability. The only station that's even somewhat complicated on Metrolink is the Glasnevin interchange station. MetroNorth had at least one station that'd be an extremely complicated nightmare to construct, the O'Connell St station was going to be built under the Liffey itself, with a ridiculous amount of levels on both sides of the Liffey required. Constructing that would have made the NCH look like a well oiled machine, in my opinion.

AngryLips

Frankly, connecting with the future dart network at two places instead of one is not worth the delay to the project that Metrolink has cost us, the primary objective of a connection out to Swords is serving the population corridor all the way out to one of the biggest suburbs in the city ...MetroNorth would have interchanged with all modes of public transport same as Metrolink, saying it's substantially different is the same as calling MetroNorth 'a tram', it's FUD detached from reality.

MyLove4Satan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118587363#Comment_118587363

Oh don't worry it is not going to open in 2035 either. This forum will still be filled with the same people - in their old age - saying 'stop being so negative about this project as this will prevent it from being built!'

Which proves any kind underground rail system in Dublin has been reduced to a faith-based aspiration. Like a New Age cult manifesting abundance with good vibes.

Peregrine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118565837#Comment_118565837

I went back and looked at this because I thought I was going crazy. It completely disagrees with what Peter Walsh said.

TII intends to engage with a service provider for Client Partner services for approximately 12 years during the delivery phase of MetroLink and 1 year into the commercial operations phase.

12 years of delivery starting Q3 2022 and one year of initial operation. So a 2034 opening.

It also specifically says that construction is expected to start in Q1 2024.

This is a fairly large and significant contract. The role of whoever wins this contract is to beef up TII for 13 years and assist in overseeing all elements of the project. They will come in and fill all these roles in grey within the MetroLink team and a few of the blue/grey ones.

Their first job is to help with procurement of the Project Delivery Partner (who will oversee all the construction contracts) and the procurement of all the construction contracts starting with the M100 advance works contract. The way they describe it, the Project Delivery Partner will be appointed not long after the Client Partner Services contract is awarded in Q3. We know that the M500/PPP contract will be the last to be awarded from TII'own timelines.

The Project Delivery Partner will have a role in the procurement of all the major construction contracts so if the final contractor (M500/PPP) procurement will begin in Q2 2023 then the Project Delivery Partner should be appointed some time in early 2023.

The procurement documents also say that the M100 advance works contract will be awarded six months after the Project Delivery Partner is appointed. So late 2023. That's all in line with the 2024 construction date mentioned in the same documents.

In short, they're telling potential bidders that the Client Partner Services contract is the first step of a multi-phase procurement plan for the delivery of MetroLink that will run in parallel with the planning phase.

This is all at odds with what the TII CEO said three days ago.

D.L.R.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118587521#Comment_118587521

Metrolink is a better route with better integration. Pretty simple.

Metro South is the same disaster it always was, largely due to poor choices made 20 years ago.