UFC 235 - Jones vs Smith, Woodley vs Usman - Sat March 2nd

Teddy Daniels

Deleted User wrote: »

It went limp.

When your arm is up and you want it lower down, you don't let it flop down like a sack of potatoes - that's just not a natural movement.

https://streamja.com/PylQ

He was either out or faking being out , his reaction afterwards was like oh it’s ok so I believe he faked being out to get a rematch.

mailburner

Jones comes across as a lovely guy at the presser
I think he's changed for the better, learnt from his mistakes and in
time will be a great role model

jaysus he bring fake to new levels

spix

Deleted User wrote: »

It went limp.

When your arm is up and you want it lower down, you don't let it flop down like a sack of potatoes - that's just not a natural movement.

https://streamja.com/PylQ

Yes you do actually, its called gravity

spix

Teddy Daniels wrote: »

He was either out or faking being out , his reaction afterwards was like oh it’s ok so I believe he faked being out to get a rematch.

Yeah he faked being out by clearly giving a thumbs up and keeping his arm up when herb went to check.

TerrorFirmer

spix wrote: »

Yeah he faked being out by clearly giving a thumbs up and keeping his arm up when herb went to check.

It's not that ambiguous. His arm flopped lifelessly to the mat after he choke was applied heavily, can't really blame Herb Dean for not seeing the subsequent thumbs up tucked underneath Lawler.

There's a world of difference between dropping your hand, and it flopping to the mat in a textback choked-out fashion.

Whether he was faking or not, the ref made a decent call based on what was in front of him in real time.

Reminds me of Sam Alvey complaining of the unfair stoppage when he was turtled taking a pounding and not intelligently defending.

You can argue till the cows come home but it was a fair stoppage to me in the context of the fight and while Herb Dean has made some bad stoppages that wasn't really one of them.

Marc Goddard showed some serious lack of judgement in comparison during the Usman/Woodley fight with the whole "this is a fight" spiel, while Usman was working away relentlessly.

Teddy Daniels

spix wrote: »

Yeah he faked being out by clearly giving a thumbs up and keeping his arm up when herb went to check.

That arm drop had both rogan and Dom screaming he was out
Herb clearly formed the same opinion
It wasn’t a natural movement and yes I get that he gave a thumbs up
I think he gave up on the charade at that stage
He was done anyway he wasn’t getting out of that bulldog and a jaw/head squeeze is a bad place to be.

Teddy Daniels

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

It's not that ambiguous. His arm flopped lifelessly to the mat after he choke was applied heavily, can't really blame Herb Dean for not seeing the subsequent thumbs up tucked underneath Lawler.

There's a world of difference between dropping your hand, and it flopping to the mat in a textback choked-out fashion.

Whether he was faking or not, the ref made a decent call based on what was in front of him in real time.

Reminds me of Sam Alvey complaining of the unfair stoppage when he was turtled taking a pounding and not intelligently defending.

You can argue till the cows come home but it was a fair stoppage to me in the context of the fight and while Herb Dean has made some bad stoppages that wasn't really one of them.

Marc Goddard showed some serious lack of judgement in comparison during the Usman/Woodley fight with the whole "this is a fight" spiel, while Usman was working away relentlessly.

Was that Goddard ?
What was he at with all those stand ups ?

spix

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

It's not that ambiguous. His arm flopped lifelessly to the mat after he choke was applied heavily, can't really blame Herb Dean for not seeing the subsequent thumbs up tucked underneath Lawler.

There's a world of difference between dropping your hand, and it flopping to the mat in a textback choked-out fashion.

Whether he was faking or not, the ref made a decent call based on what was in front of him in real time.

Reminds me of Sam Alvey complaining of the unfair stoppage when he was turtled taking a pounding and not intelligently defending.

You can argue till the cows come home but it was a fair stoppage to me in the context of the fight and while Herb Dean has made some bad stoppages that wasn't really one of them.

Marc Goddard showed some serious lack of judgement in comparison during the Usman/Woodley fight with the whole "this is a fight" spiel, while Usman was working away relentlessly.

Ok forget the thumbs up, he picked up lawlers arm and when he let it go it didn't fall down, but he already had his hand on askrens chest ready to stop it. He just failed at being a good ref there imo....

His arm wasn't lifeless that is how anyone would let it fall down from the position, why put effort into moving your arm when you can just relax it and let gravity do its job.

spix

Teddy Daniels wrote: »

That arm drop had both rogan and Dom screaming he was out
Herb clearly formed the same opinion
It wasn’t a natural movement and yes I get that he gave a thumbs up
I think he gave up on the charade at that stage
He was done anyway he wasn’t getting out of that bulldog and a jaw/head squeeze is a bad place to be.

Commentators often say things which are completely wrong and influence viewers opinions, its possible hearb also heard them and was influenced. Just because askren said he wasn't going to let go doesn't mean he wouldn't have. If he kept the pressure on he would've burnt his arms out eventually. Some chokes just aren't in right and doesn't matter how long you hold it for you won't get a tap, he would've let go or not squeezed as hard eventually.

The way he left his arm down is a completely natural movement, he just relaxed it and let gravity do its job rather than exerting effort to move his muscles for no reason

Teddy Daniels

spix wrote: »

Commentators often say things which are completely wrong and influence viewers opinions, its possible hearb also heard them and was influenced. Just because askren said he wasn't going to let go doesn't mean he wouldn't have. If he kept the pressure on he would've burnt his arms out eventually. Some chokes just aren't in right and doesn't matter how long you hold it for you won't get a tap, he would've let go or not squeezed as hard eventually.

The way he left his arm down is a completely natural movement, he just relaxed it and let gravity do its job rather than exerting effort to move his muscles for no reason

I’ve watched that arm 20 times
It’s either an unconscious man or a pretending to be ones arm
That’s my opinion.
No body just lets their muscles and appendages fall around btw they move them
Show me one time ever that any not unconscious ufc fighter droops an appendage like that. I bet you can’t .

spix

Teddy Daniels wrote: »

I’ve watched that arm 20 times
It’s either an unconscious man or a pretending to be ones arm
That’s my opinion.
No body just lets their muscles and appendages fall around btw they move them
Show me one time ever that any not unconscious ufc fighter droops an appendage like that. I bet you can’t .

I'm not going to go look through fights for a similar position lol, just put your arm above your head and tell yourself to let your arm down, I guarantee it flops down.

Mean Laqueefa

Teddy Daniels wrote: »

I’ve watched that arm 20 times
It’s either an unconscious man or a pretending to be ones arm
That’s my opinion.
No body just lets their muscles and appendages fall around btw they move them
Show me one time ever that any not unconscious ufc fighter droops an appendage like that. I bet you can’t .

CiaranTheGreat

Maybe it’s nothing but I wonder did Askren being on the same card affect Tyrons performance? He would have been used to all the coaches emphasis on him on a fight night only for I believe 2 of his 4 cornermen to be focusing on another fighter only minutes before he has to fight.

It may be nothing but i would assume he would have his prefight routine or warmups rhythm that he is used to that may have had to be altered on Saturday.

magic_murph

Teddy Daniels wrote: »

He was either out or faking being out , his reaction afterwards was like oh it’s ok so I believe he faked being out to get a rematch.

I think he was out for a second but recovered.
His arm 100% went limp - only for a second or two but he was out.
I imagine Askrin was also out for a second when he got dumped on his head but recovered, just about.

It was an early stoppage but robbie should have done more to show he was still awake - granted it all happened quickly so easy for us couch fighters to comments

magic_murph

spix wrote: »

Ok forget the thumbs up, he picked up lawlers arm and when he let it go it didn't fall down, but he already had his hand on askrens chest ready to stop it. He just failed at being a good ref there imo....

His arm wasn't lifeless that is how anyone would let it fall down from the position, why put effort into moving your arm when you can just relax it and let gravity do its job.

How heavy are your arms that it take effort to lower your arm - to the point that it would diminish your energy reserves.

He was out for a second and did regain consciousness

rob316

Just finished catching up on the main card. Great card

Cody - where the **** is this guys chill, immensely talented fighter and he just has no patience. Wild swinging, did he learn nothing from TJ fight.

Usman - he rag dolled Woodley and I can't believe I'm saying that. Pure domination start to finish.

Jones - too creative and strong for a conventional fighter like Smith. Smith was way out of his league.

Askren - tough prick to survive that early beating. Lawler was out, maybe for a second but he was out, your arm just doesn't drop like that if your conscious.

Woodley may aswell retire or join another promo, White won't let him near the title again.

Teddy Daniels

Mean Laqueefa wrote: »

You win

Mellor

spix wrote: »

If he kept the pressure on he would've burnt his arms out eventually. Some chokes just aren't in right and doesn't matter how long you hold it for you won't get a tap, he would've let go or not squeezed as hard eventually.

Or he could have put Robbie to sleep, fully. Might have only been a few seconds away. Don't think we should discount that option.

spix

magic_murph wrote: »

How heavy are your arms that it take effort to lower your arm - to the point that it would diminish your energy reserves.

He was out for a second and did regain consciousness

You are missing my point. When your arm is above your head, your muscles are engaged, to let your arm down you relax your muscles and arm flops down due to gravity. It takes intentional effort to not flop your arm down from above your head. The way his arm went down is a completely natural movement, everyone is being influenced by the commentary...

spix

spix wrote: »

The way his arm went down is a completely natural movement

There is no way of knowing whether he was out or not, only Robbie knows.

But his arm went totally limp and flopped down in a manner that very much looks like he was briefly out. I have never seen anyone in a choke let their arm go limp like that on purpose. It would be a silly thing to do on purpose because it would very likely result in ref intervention.

spix

Deleted User wrote: »

There is no way of knowing whether he was out or not, only Robbie knows.

But his arm went totally limp and flopped down in a manner that very much looks like he was briefly out. I have never seen anyone in a choke let their arm go limp like that on purpose. It would be a silly thing to do on purpose because it would very likely result in ref intervention.

If you look closely (at the full clip) it looks like robbie already had his arm relaxed before it fell, it was resting on ben but then ben knocked it off by turning his head. Either way the arm flop is irrelevant since herb lifted robbies arm to check and robbie kept it up which means he was not out. Yet herb still stopped it? He just f'ed up.

uptherebels

spix wrote: »

I'm not going to go look through fights for a similar position lol, just put your arm above your head and tell yourself to let your arm down, I guarantee it flops down.

But why do it in a fight?

ASOT

Gall saying he passed out cutting weight and that's why he lost, Diego also has an picture up showing Gall bit him, glad he was smashed up.

EagererBeaver

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There is no way of knowing whether he was out or not, only Robbie knows.

But his arm went totally limp and flopped down in a manner that very much looks like he was briefly out. I have never seen anyone in a choke let their arm go limp like that on purpose. It would be a silly thing to do on purpose because it would very likely result in ref intervention.

Did you really use accelerated footage to make your point here?

His arm didn't go "totally" limp at all. As soon as it touched the mat his first was closed and moving.

xckjoo

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Did you really use accelerated footage to make your point here?

His arm didn't go "totally" limp at all. As soon as it touched the mat his first was closed and moving.

He 100% let it flop like he was unconscious. Completely unnatural way of moving a limb. Maybe he wasn't out at all but Herb couldn't know that. The reaction to Herb moving his hand is another thing. I think people are right that it was this that woke him up. He looked a little slow to react so Herb had already started getting Ben off of someone he believed was unconscious. Even if he wasn't out and wasn't slow to move his hand I still don't think we can fault the call.

magic_murph

Can you show a clip of his hand moving when hit hits the canvas - the clip above looks for all the word that the arm flopped to the ground in a manner that would suggest he is unconscious rather than 'saving energy' - I believe he woke up straight after but on the arm dropping moment he was out.

EagererBeaver

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Did you really use accelerated footage to make your point here?

No .. ?

It's a looping gif. It's less than a second of footage according to the round timer, and it's taking slightly less than a second for one full loop. So it's close to real time as far as I can discern. If you can technically prove otherwise go for it.

The Nal

Fighters have to be overly careful about showing they're ok at the moment. A few bad stoppages recently.

ASOT

The Nal wrote: »

Fighters have to be overly careful about showing they're ok at the moment. A few bad stoppages recently.

To be fair Alvey has himself to blame there, pinned down like that turtling up is hardly intelligently defending yourself

Regarding that Alvey stoppage, it's just the way things have gone with more emphasis on fighter safety. You can stick your thumb up all you want but if you're being punched in the head and not doing anything, most refs will stop it.

With that specific stoppage I would also look at the previous knock-down for context. When Alvey gets up and is on wobbly legs, Goddard is already going to be very close to stopping it. Again - a sign of the times, there is less tolerance nowadays for staggering around. The association of ringside physicians released new guidelines for refs last year and any loss of balance is supposed to be interpreted as a potential concussion symptom.

Mr. Manager

If anyone thinks that's an early stoppage they need their head examined. He's walking around like a new born baby deer ffs

spix

Mr. Manager wrote: »

If anyone thinks that's an early stoppage they need their head examined. He's walking around like a new born baby deer ffs

Just because someone gets wobbled in a fight doesn't mean it should be stopped. I agree that it wasn't an early stoppage though, purely because he was taking punches on the ground for a few seconds without attempting to move. He could've given him a bit longer to try get out of there but it wasn't that bad a stoppage that it should be complained about, completely understandable why he stopped it.

Luap

Is there a replay of ufc 235 tonight?

3e had it before

Ultimate Seduction

Luap wrote: »

Is there a replay of ufc 235 tonight?

3e had it before

Used to be on 3e on a Tuesday night I thought? Not sure if they still do because BT replay it on Sunday nights.

Beersmith

Robbie wasn't intelligently defending himself (along with clearly being out for at least a brief moment) so it's over.

dulux99

Beersmith wrote: »

Robbie wasn't intelligently defending himself (along with clearly being out for at least a brief moment) so it's over.

Agreed. I really can't understand the total uproar about it. He gave Herb no choice.

spix

dulux99 wrote: »

Agreed. I really can't understand the total uproar about it. He gave Herb no choice.

How did he give herb no choice? Herb lifted up his arm to check if he was out or not, robbie kept his arm up but herb still stopped it. Its not unusual for someone to be held in a choke for way longer than robbie was and eventually get out of it or have the opponent let go. He wasn't out, didn't tap, it shouldn't have been stopped. End of story. Herb just failed big time and I guarantee he instantly knew he did as well.

Meanwhile in the d leagues, there is no doubt if they are out or not
Heres frans mlambo choking someone out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5_DA84kG9U&t=1305s
and him getting choked out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2Wenhiatco&t=310s

spix

Beersmith wrote: »

Robbie wasn't intelligently defending himself (along with clearly being out for at least a brief moment) so it's over.

Staying relaxed is an intelligent defense for a choke, if he moved he could've made the choke tighter, he could've felt he was fine in that position and just elected to stay calm and see if ben loosens the grip eventually or see out the round.

dulux99

But his arm went totally limp. It looked limp. The commentators screamed that he was out, to me at home he looked totally out, the ref had to make the decision within about half a second. It was unfortunate but not egregious in my opinion.

Mellor

spix wrote: »

Either way the arm flop is irrelevant since herb lifted robbies arm to check and robbie kept it up which means he was not out.

Keeping it up doesn't prove he was conscious though. You can also spasm and go rigid. The ref isn't looking to see if his hand drops WWE style. He's looking for resistance or a reaction. If Robbie lets Herb move his arm, and doesn't react. It's gonna looks like he is out.

He was lucid immediately. So I don't think he was actually out. But his actions were exactly how I'd react if I was pretending to be out.

tommyboy26

robbie said in the press conference after that askren had his arm around an ear and he never heard herb calling him. he also said it was unfortunate but he isnt going to get to worked up over it

people will argue over it for ages but put yourself in herbs shoes. does he have the view that people at home have? he is responsible for the 2 fighters lives regardless of what anyone else says herb thought he was out so as a ref he has to do what he believes is in the best interest of the fighter. he made a decision in a split second. cut the guy some slack been a ref is a very hard job and even more so on such a big stage with millions watching.

EagererBeaver

Beersmith wrote: »

Robbie wasn't intelligently defending himself (along with clearly being out for at least a brief moment) so it's over.

He was very intelligently defending himself unless he was unconscious. There was a vicious joke and he was being cool and calm. "Intelligently defending yourself" doesn't mean flailing around like a spanner to show you're not out. It would be different if he was getting pounded.

Annnnnnnyyyyyywaayyyyyyy, regardless of how right the stoppage was, what do people think of Askren's position in the UFC elite? He's probably further from the title then I thought he was.

ricero

I actually disagree. A couple of wins for Askren and it's a title shot for him. Had the fight won against Lawler regardless of the early stoppage I feel.

Ultimate Seduction

If he does fight Darren Till next I think he beats him. Hard to deny him the shot then, weather he beats Marty or not is a different story.

Effects

Where does it leave Lawler? Time to call it a day or keep fighting? He's had a pretty long career, can't be great for his long term health to keep going.

Mellor

EagererBeaver wrote: »

He was very intelligently defending himself unless he was unconscious. There was a vicious joke and he was being cool and calm. "Intelligently defending yourself" doesn't mean flailing around like a spanner to show you're not out. It would be different if he was getting pounded.

Completely agree.
Intelligently defending applies to strikes not strangles. A strangle stops the fight when they go out or they tap. Not when they stop defending well.

Personally I don't think he was defending the choke at all. We've no way of knowing if it was on or not either.

Whelo79

Here's an excellent Gracie Breakdown talking about Lawlor v Askren. Let's let the experts have the final say!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?fbclid=IwAR2Tnlz4I-9F2xncnCvEkiBNVFE215M-VNEnRNKM-73NOBnbeZ1KjDvMOzk&v=V4-fBRkyxJw

ASOT

Whelo79 wrote: »

Here's an excellent Gracie Breakdown talking about Lawlor v Askren. Let's let the experts have the final say!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?fbclid=IwAR2Tnlz4I-9F2xncnCvEkiBNVFE215M-VNEnRNKM-73NOBnbeZ1KjDvMOzk&v=V4-fBRkyxJw

Spot on really, Robbie wasn't getting out of that position.

Why is it always Ryron getting submitted in these :pac:

Tazzimus

ASOT wrote: »

Spot on really, Robbie wasn't getting out of that position.

Why is it always Ryron getting submitted in these :pac:

Really bad luck?
Rener is also very good at talking to the camera so could be that, natural charisma etc.


I think Askren goes through Till easy enough, he'd struggle with Marty though.
One thing we now know though is he has one hell of a chin on him.

ASOT

Tazzimus wrote: »

Really bad luck?
Rener is also very good at talking to the camera so could be that, natural charisma etc.


I think Askren goes through Till easy enough, he'd struggle with Marty though.
One thing we now know though is he has one hell of a chin on him.

Yeah to be fair i could listen to Rener all day, the breakdowns are class and makes certain situations alot more accessible and understandable for everyone!

Askren deserves major props from coming back from that slam and beating, he also showed that once he gets a hold of you it's game over. I'm dying to see his next fight anyway.